Appearance! Huh! What is it good for?

Ormseitr said:
Not really. Mostly Composure handles what Appearance used to handle - just without the physical element. The Attribute is now purely social. It actually gives more balance to the Attributes as a whole.
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I think Composure is better than Appearance because it's broader and easier for people to apply it to more than just physical attraction.  Isn't attractiveness an Advantage in WoD now?  I prefer the idea of using Compusure as an Attribute, although I don't know if 2nd edition is going to adopt that.
 
Quorlox said:
I prefer the idea of using Compusure as an Attribute, although I don't know if 2nd edition is going to adopt that.
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Thay're not. At least, not according to the new character sheet.


Could someone refresh me on what Composure does cover?


-S
 
Appearance is definitely something trainable.


Charlize Theron in Monster


Charlize Theron in The Italian Job.


Norma Jean versus Marilyn Monroe.  


Appearance isn't static, and it's one of those Attributes that folks often overlook.  Which is odd, since we find ourselves reacting to it all the time.  


Ugly woman goes up to a counter and looks for service, and she waits a few minutes.  Gorgeous woman rolls up, and BAM! there's a counter person there in an instant.  


Fair?  About as much as me doing a little roller boogie or being able to move large pieces of furniture while my ex-wife wobbles on roller blades, and pointing to said furniture to be moved.  Bees gots to fly, birds gots to sing, and not everyone has been gifted with the same attributes or is as naturally good at some things.  


Now then, an ugly person can with heapings and lashings of personality overcome their looks, and be vivacious and personable.  That's not Compsure--that's Charisma.  


How attractive a person is to another is a jumble of things.  I know lots of gals who are drop dead gorgeous, who are about as attractive to me as a cockroach, because they are cold stone bitches.  Seriously about as interesting as a piece of week old roast beef, because their personalities are that pleasant to choke down.  


But, I will admit, that without the intervening time to get to know them, girls do look good.  


Doesn't do them much good once folks get to know their poisonous selves--save for the bastards who pick them up to lay them, and then drop their padded behinds back at the bar the next day, which only makes them even more pleasant as strings of unsuccessful relationships only make them that much happier.


Then there's the case of Janey from college.  


When you see pictures of the gal, you notice that she's got a big nose, funny cheekbones, a wide mouth, and thin lips.  Kind of strange looking woman, and skinny to boot.  But, Janey was one of the most attractive folks I've ever known, by sheer force of personality.  Without animation, only a static picture, she was a funny looking gal, but when she started talking to you, when she was acting, when she was moving, she was amazing.  Made you the most important person in the universe by talking to you, total concentration on your words, and total concentration of her personality on you was impressive. There's a piece of me that is still hopelessly crushing on her, after 15 years.  Not because she was especially gorgeous, but because she was that that attractive.


Appearance as an Attribute makes sense to me.  It is something that can be futzed with.  Bone structure can't be played with, but you can do with the package you've got.  


Realistic to raise Appearance 1 to 5?  Not in one go--but you can start by cleaning up a bit, and carrying yourself better.  1 to 2.  Then maybe you clean up your skin and do your hair right.   2 to 3.  Then you start eating right, working out a bit more, really pay attention to your appearance.  3 to 4.  To go the full on 5, you've really got to work at it.  Just the same as someone who has a 5 in Strength had to work at it, or 5  in Dexterity.  Or 5 in Stamina.  There's natural ability, and then there's training.  Training is required for peak performance--and if you doubt that applies to Appearance, take a look at A-List celebrities when they're in their off time.  I'm a big fan of Cameron Diaz, but she can be one homely gal if she isn't putting some time into it. Look at how prize fighters train before a fight--to be in that kind of condition, you have to be in full on training mode, it just doesn't happen.


Your looks are an Attribute.  Some folks are naturally more attractive than others--something the gym industry is constantly trying to shoo you away from.  Some folks will never be as good looking as others.  Some folks will never be able to bench 180.  Some folks will never be able to ice skate with any efficacy, or play tennis worth a damn.  


Games aren't about those limitations though.  They are models and approximations for the purpose of telling a story, and the journey the characters take, and in the game, in forging a hero, you can take a humble, dirty slave girl and forge a warrior princess entire.  


I like the Appearance Attribute.  I think it makes perfect sense, and folks who are trying to futz with it, are a bit misguided and trying to haul in what is covered in Charisma or Manipulation to cover the sheer basics that some folks are naturally more attractive than others, the same way that some folks are stronger, brighter, or faster.
 
I like the Appearance Attribute.  I think it makes perfect sense' date=' and folks who are trying to futz with it, are a bit misguided and trying to haul in what is covered in Charisma or Manipulation to cover the sheer basics that some folks are naturally more attractive than others, the same way that some folks are stronger, brighter, or faster.[/quote']
I have no complaints with your explanations or points. The one thing I do have issue with is that, canonically, Appearance has very little bearing on the actual mechanics of the game. Sure, it describes how you look, and yes, it can, through the methods you describe, be increased. But when do you use Appearance in a roll? A number of suggestions have been made here, and they are, I believe, good ones, but even with those included, Appearance is still little used in the actual mechanics of the game.


As I said at the beginning of the thread, one of my players has bought an Appearance of 5 and I'm trying to provide some in game benefit for this. I believe I can do this, but I still feel the stat is under used. I also think some of the other opinions expressed here, particularly with regard to Composure, is that Composure can be used mechanically. If I've overstepped my bounds in interpretting some of the viewpoints expressed here, I apologize in advance.


Cheers,


V
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I would suggest that you need to take a look at how you're running your games then.


If you want to have the character use their Abilities, then let them use them.  Appearance+Performance.  Appearance+Presence.  Appearance+Socialize.  All well and valid uses of Appearance.  For making a stunning enterance to a ball, Appearance+Socialize.  Want to impress the troops and lead them to greater glory for your own bad ass self?  Appearance+Presence is a good way to start off the stirring oratory.  You want to captivate an audience, then Appearance+Peformance is a good way to start.  Like climbing can be started off with Dex+Athletics, and then move into the grinding pace of Stamina+Athletics.  You can have multiple Attributes govern rolls, as they are extended.  


Blaming the game mechanics because you're not availing yourself to the possibilities is what I'm calling out on.  There are plenty of opportunities to use all of the Attributes in a game.  Plenty for actual effect in the game.  Games of Seduction aren't always won by the most personable, but usually the gal with the scantiest dress or the fella with the buffest of shoulders.  Making an impact when you roll into the ball, to make maximum impact...or fail miserably.


Take a look at the Firefly episode "Shindig".  There's an example of a gal who didn't do so hot on her Appearance+Socialize roll on the enterance to overwhelm folks with her sophistication.  Later, she did much better on her Appearance+Socialize roll to captivate the elder men in the audience with her good looks and gentle nature, and several extended rolls with Manipulation to boot.


Not a lot of call for Appearance+Medicine but then again, you're not making a lot of Strength+Bureacracy rolls either.  Does that mean that Strength is broken and useless?  What about Dexterity+Linguistics?  Strength+Investigation?  


Don't blame the system if you're not using it right. Or you're running a game where you ignore those things.


In a straight up military game, Appearance isn't going to be used all that often--then again, look at Conan the Barbarian to see how Appearance can be used to get someone into a guarded camp.  Could Conan sneak into the harem?  Not so much, nor could an ugly girl, but a pretty girl...easy peasy.


Could an ugly girl fluster a petty official and get him to come to heel as quickly as a homely gal--no matter how charming or funny.  Apperance is first impression.  You need Charisma to keep someone on the hook, and Manipulation to get them to bend to your will, but that's the same as skating--you need Dexterity, Strength, and Stamina, all together.  Same as you Perception, Intelligence and Wits to write a good parody of the king's antics for a play.  


I just don't think that you're thinking on how to use the full range of Abilities in your games.
 
Completely off topic, but has anyone envisioned the army of writers, content editors, and line editors that must surely exist inside Jakk's head to produce his posts?
 
I have. It's an army of pimply, fur-suited midgets.


-S
 
Yeah. I wish Jukashi hadn't said anything...


I almost feel like I need to delete that thread, reformat the hard drive a few times, then pass it through the wash. Then, maybe, I'll feel clean again. ;)


-S
 
Stillborn said:
Yeah. I wish Jukashi hadn't said anything...
I almost feel like I need to delete that thread, reformat the hard drive a few times, then pass it through the wash. Then, maybe, I'll feel clean again. ;)


-S
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"Out, damned image! Out, I say! One, two, 'tis time to do it...yet who would have thought Jukashi to have had so much fur in him?"
 
Stillborn said:
Yeah. I wish Jukashi hadn't said anything...
I almost feel like I need to delete that thread, reformat the hard drive a few times, then pass it through the wash. Then, maybe, I'll feel clean again. ;)


-S
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"Out, damned image! Out, I say! One, two, 'tis time to do it...yet who would have thought Jukashi to have had so much fur in him?"
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I think Bill Shakespeare just vomited in his grave.


This one, however, is amused.
 
Autumn Autumn Leaves: App.3 (God/ His Barbarian Tribe)


Plumes of Empires: App.5 (Solar/ Eclipse, Fae-blood)


Zelkhan Lotus: App. 3 (Solar/ Twilight)


Ledaal Azura:App.4 (Sidereal/ Endings)


those are my fav characters, and i guess i had two of them with 3 in app. but only cus i didnt choose social attributes as their focus.


Why? Because Ledaal was a sorcerer, and Yellow was a Barbarian
 
I once had a boy-toy character.  A heroic mortal with an appearance of 6 (through the Legendary Attribute Merit) and the Terrestrial Bloodline Merit.  It was a fun game.  He ended up being married off to an Outcaste sorceror.
 
Without animation' date=' only a static picture, she [i']was[/i] a funny looking gal, but when she started talking to you, when she was acting, when she was moving, she was amazing.
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This was supposedly true of Cleopatra as well.


Anyway, there is another wiki thread discussing the idea that a high appearance is actually a drawback.


In this thread, I suggested the following method of giving Appearance a more mechanical purpose:

It's based on the following: when humans appreciate beauty, be it in other humans, buildings, seashells or anything else, what they are subconsciously appreciating is symmetry and proportion. When comparing two similar things, generally the one that is more symmetric and proportionate will be considered more attractive by observers.
In particular, the proportion people react to is the golden ratio. Take a line labeled A on one end, B on the other and add a point C such that the ratio between AC and CB is the same as the ratio between AB and AC. This ratio, about 1.618 to 1, is called the golden ratio and it shows up everywhere, particularly in things considered beautiful, including the human face.


The comment above about the model who still looked beautiful even when frumpy turns out to be correct, because her tossled hair doesn't change the symmetry of her face. What's more, this has been proven empirically.


So, people with a high Appearance are more symmetric and proportionate. So what?


Well, consider for a moment the way manses work in Exalted. The flow of essence through them is entirely related to their design and geometry. Imperfections in the design disrupt the flow and make the manse less efficient.


Take that a step further and extend it to humans. Suppose asymmetry in a human messes up the flow of essence within them, too. That would mean that the higher the Appearance, the better conductor of essence you are.


I'm not sure how this would manifest, exactly. Perhaps people with high appearance regain essence more quickly. Perhaps they can pull more essence out of a manse. Perhaps each dot of appearance over two allows the character to increase the size of her personal pool while decreasing her peripheral pool by the same amount (in effect, moving points from peripheral into personal).
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And let's face it--when Gods choose vessels, priests, priestesses, they favor the pretty ones.


I'm not sure that I'd roll entirely on the higher Appearance, the better the Essence flow train, but it does bring up more ideas on how to deal and how to use Appearance in game, as a mechanic.  


Van--I think I came off a bit harsher than I intended--I meant to be a bit more sarcastic, and it came off a bit snarkier than I meant.
 
Stillborn said:
Could someone refresh me on what Composure does cover?
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Assuming somebody else hasn't answered this yet, it's "Poise. Dignity. The capacity to remain calm and appear -- and actually be -- unfazed in social and threatening situations..."  It's the social resistance Attribute.
 
Van--I think I came off a bit harsher than I intended--I meant to be a bit more sarcastic' date=' and it came off a bit snarkier than I meant.[/quote']
Thanks Jakk. I admit to being a noob to Exalted and I just want to give my players the best story I can. This site has been a godsend to a nervous ST and I appreciate the comments and advice given. Even if it's a bit on the snarky side. :-)


Cheers,


S
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First of all excuse me for reviving this carcass of a thread. I feel I never got around to finish it properly.


Second excuse me for abandoning it, just when it got interesting. I suddenly had a lot to do and couldn't waste my "precious" time on a geek forum :)


Memesis and Jakk, you both present your case very convincingly. I have actually considered going back to Appearance again. Some of the ways you suggest using it mechanically make sense and I guess Jakk's explanation of how you "train" your Appearance is valid.


I do feel you are missing my point, though. You are both arguing that Appearance is a hugely important factor in all human social dealings. You point out that looks influence peoples' salary, how fast they get their drinks at bars and how easily they are noticed. I have never contested these things. Go back and read my posts if you disagree with this. I think I mentioned it in my first posting, actually. I totally agree with you!


What I contest is how a character's looks are handled mechanically. And the mechanics of the Atribute Appearance have never sat well with me. What I have done instead is replacing it with Composure (enough about that) and let my players freely describe their character's looks. It is no longer determined by a game mechanic. It still influences the mechanics, though, because, as you both point out, people are different and rarely born equal. Some are butt-ugly, some are gorgeous. Life isn't fair.


I have chosen this course of action because my players are rather mature and doesn't feel they have to twink the system to have fun. Only one of them plays a beautiful character, for instance. Also, I like to give my players as much storytelling control as they want, thus letting the looks of their characters be a story device more than a mechanical advantage. I do admit, that this wouldn't work for everybody. Not even all mature players. Some are more mechanically inclined than others. But it works for my group.
 
... I'd like to interject this little tidbit concerning Appearance in 2nd. ed., snagged from the rules section of the "Return to the Tomb Five Corners"-story released on the WW site:


"Characters with a higher Appearance have the advantage in social combat. A character applies a bonus to her MDV [Mental Defense Value] against incoming social attacks by character with a lower Appearance, equal to the difference in the two Appearance ratings. A character with a lower Appearance suffers a penalty to her MDV equal to the difference. This bonus or penalty cannot exceed three, however."
 
I said:
I have chosen this course of action because my players are rather mature and doesn't feel they have to twink the system to have fun. Only one of them plays a beautiful character, for instance. Also, I like to give my players as much storytelling control as they want, thus letting the looks of their characters be a story device more than a mechanical advantage. I do admit, that this wouldn't work for everybody. Not even all mature players. Some are more mechanically inclined than others. But it works for my group.
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Reading this again it strikes me as pretty damn offensive. Im sorry. Believe me, when I say, that I didn't mean to offend anyone. I don't think mechanics are for immature players, only. Rules can be a help for some, as it helps the roleplaying along, but most of my players (including myself) often get confused by them and we have therefore chosen to evolve in a different direction. That is why I often seek other ways of storytelling (and why I am a great Rebecca Borgstrom fan :) )
 
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