Appearance! Huh! What is it good for?

[Vanman]

Other than seduction attempts and other such stuff, has anyone ever used Appearance in any other roll? It just seems that, of the 9 stats, this one has the least use in game. I'm trying to figure out ways to incorporate it more into my game. My initial thought is that, in most social situations, this is the stat to use the first time a character is seen, as physical attraction plays a large part in how people react to us. I've also toyed with giving some extra dice to other rolls because of a high appearance.


Anyone have any thoughts?


Cheers,


V

 

[memesis]

Anyone have any thoughts?

http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?BillGarrett/AppearanceHowto

 

[Persell]

I never really thought about this before but now you bring it up I do agree, it is indeed a rarely used attribute. This lies in the nature of the attribute though, in the real world your appearance determines a lot of things especially in first meeting situations, in the game a lot of reactions are player or plotdriven, limiting the usefulness of the trait. Personally I'd say there is nothing bad about that as long as it does not prevent players from playing high appearance characters out of efficiency reasons.


Perhaps it is possible to give appearance some secondary uses, with for example the system which is used for mounted combat. Your appearance might limit your social skills in certain situations. A court of fey nobles might listen more easily to a good looking orator than an ugly one for example.


Roll-wise I'd suggest using it in first contact situations with npcs whose reaction is not determined by the plot, townsfolk, possible allies etc. When the circle realizes that it has benefits to send in joe-handsome first to talk then the attribute already has more use.

 

[Vanman]

Thanks Mem!


Cheers,


V

 

[Vanman]

Personally I'd say there is nothing bad about that as long as it does not prevent players from playing high appearance characters out of efficiency reasons.

I have a player who created an Appearance 5 character and it was then that I realised that, mechanically, at least, he's going to get very little reward for that. Now, I also realise that it's my duty as ST to make sure that attribute does come into play, but the other stats are certainly used more mechanically than Appearance is.


Memesis' link is a good one if you haven't taken a look.


Cheers,


V

 

[Forn Clakes]

Good link.


~FC.

 

[Solfi]

if nothing else, The new Social Fu system will, I think, open the eyes of players to more possibilities in social interplay.

 

[Flagg]

Looks like the wiki has used WW's new you-can't-use-this-for-any-other-purpose-than-our-artwork-contest 2nd Edition Dawn castemark as their bookmark icon.


-S

 

[dmoonfire]

I agree with the Wiki site. I also use Appearance in my game to make it look like you belong. So, to dress up as a sailor or to make people convinced you actually are a sailor in disguise, Appearance + Sail. To make people thing you actually are a mage, Appearance + Occult. Same thing with most of the skills. The general idea is that people who are skilled know how to look the part.


I also have used Appearance as a way of telling the players which characters they notice in a crowd. Basically, Perception + Awareness. Start at 5 and go down, so one success finds the Appearance 5 people, two finds the 4's, etc.

 

[Flagg]

Those are actually some pretty good ideas.


-S

 

[Quchu]

Looks like the wiki has used WW's new you-can't-use-this-for-any-other-purpose-than-our-artwork-contest 2nd Edition Dawn castemark as their bookmark icon.
-S

Huh? It's been that icon for a good while, at least a month or two. And as far as I know that thing was released a week ago.


By the way, the graphics packs were crap.

 

[Persell]

Boy, have I ranted about this one! Well, as some of you might recall, I hate Appearance. In my games I have house-ruled it away in favor of Composure from nWoD. Composure has many of the same characteristics as App. I just doesn't actually describe your looks. Those should, IMHO, be up to the character to describe.


My beef with App is mainly that a thing as static as looks shouldn't influence a dice roll. How you bear yourself socially should, on the other hand. Of the rolls suggested by the wiki I can give credit to only a few.

   *  Appearance + Investigation can let you talk to a reticent witness with a weakness for handsome boys or pretty girls, such as a self-important aristocrat.

I would gladly give a 1 or 2 die bonus on the Composure + Investigation roll to a player who has described his character's appearance well.

   * Appearance + Larceny might function as an important part of a confidence game, by letting the mark feel self-important that such a good-looking individual of the appropriate sex is interested in him/her.

What is the difference between an Appearance 5 + Larceny 1 roll and an Appearance 1 + Larceny 5 roll? In both cases the player are doing as described above. In the first the character is beautiful, in the other he is butt-ugly. Composure is more in line with this Larceny action in the first place and the weakness of the first can easily be weighed against the other.


With the other examples I have similar objections and will not bore you by repeating myself (again). Basically I think looks, though very important socially should be handled as stunts. Bonus dice and not Attributes.

 

[Jukashi]

I've always thought that appearance should be kept in mind by the Storyteller in assigning the difficulty of social roles.

 

[memesis]

My beef with App is mainly that a thing as static as looks shouldn't influence a dice roll.

O RLY?


A survey conducted by London Guildhall University of 11,000 people showed that (subjectively) good-looking people earn more. Less attractive people earned, on average, 13% less than more attractive people, while the penalty for overweight was around 5%.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/Careers/07/08/looks/


Feminine beauty, the subject of philosophical and artistic musings for millennia, can be predicted by something as basic as hormones – in women, but not men. Researchers at the University of St Andrews in Fife, UK, have found that women’s facial attractiveness is directly related to their oestrogen levels.


http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8251


Finally, try doing a google search for something like "celebrities no makeup", to compare and contrast.  Good appearance can vary by the day, it can vary by the hour, it can vary by the person viewing it - I'm sure everyone here has seen at least one member of the appropriate sex who they thought were hot, and could find at least one person who disagreed with them.

 

[Persell]

As I mentioned, I don't object to the fact that looks have a severe influence on social interaction. I just don't think they should be covered by an Attribute, as they basically are static. By looks I mean the degree to which your face corresponds to the cultural ideal of beauty (hair colour, body hair etc) and how symmetrical your features are.


I am sorry if I was a little vague, there.

 

[memesis]

   * Appearance + Larceny might function as an important part of a confidence game, by letting the mark feel self-important that such a good-looking individual of the appropriate sex is interested in him/her.

What is the difference between an Appearance 5 + Larceny 1 roll and an Appearance 1 + Larceny 5 roll? In both cases the player are doing as described above. In the first the character is beautiful, in the other he is butt-ugly. Composure is more in line with this Larceny action in the first place and the weakness of the first can easily be weighed against the other.

What is the difference between Dexterity 1 and Melee 5, and Dexterity 5 and Melee 1?  Who cares?


If you are butt-ugly, you are not going to be approaching someone with a con that depends on sweet-talking them and flashy good looks.  HOWEVER, if you encounter an NPC who is jaded and soulless, but still likes a pretty face, and your ST says, "it's difficulty 3 for Manipulation but difficulty 1 for Appearance", then you would be more careful to think about what your approach would be.  You can scoff, but many powerful people exist like this in the real world, and I want you to go look up the definition of "trophy wife" before you disagree with me.

 

[memesis]

As I mentioned, I don't object to the fact that looks have a severe influence on social interaction. I just don't think they should be covered by an Attribute, as they basically are static. By looks I mean the degree to which your face corresponds to the cultural ideal of beauty (hair colour, body hair etc) and how symmetrical your features are.
I am sorry if I was a little vague, there.

The actual physical geometry of your face and body are somewhat static. How attractive they are perceived to be IS NOT.

 

[Persell]

But physical attractiveness is determined by the geometry of your face. The rest is covered nicely by Charisma and, well, personality.

 

[memesis]

But physical attractiveness is determined by the geometry of your face. The rest is covered nicely by Charisma and, well, personality.

You're missing my point.  The rest is NOT covered nicely by those things.  The rest is covered by the reactions people have to seeing the face you have (and your body, and so forth).  If you want to try that argument, convince me that personality changes frequently enough to merit rolling Charisma.


Different people react differently to the same face, and may even do so over time.  You can gradually realize someone is highly attractive when you formerly dismissed them - NOT because of personality either.  Someone can strike you as ugly, while another person finds that very same individual - at the same moment, in similar circumstances - to be pretty.  This happens all the time, all around the world.  Have doubts?  Don't go ask people if your theory sounds right.  Go ask them, "hey, do you ever disagree with your friends about someone's attractiveness?"

 

[Persell]

What is the difference between Dexterity 1 and Melee 5, and Dexterity 5 and Melee 1?  Who cares?

Well, I care. I wouldn't make such a fuss if I didn't


To some extent what you can't do by being a skillfull fighter you can do by being extremely dexterous. But if you are ugly, you are ugly. You can't make up for it by being extremely larcenous (I may not be fluent in English, but I sure am creative). So this limits your dice rolls. This is what I mean by 'static.' Your physical appearance can't be altered naturally like the other stats can. You can't train it. On the Wiki the examples of raising you Appearance revolves around magical or surgical methods. Not training. That makes Appearance stand alone from the other Attributes.

If you are butt-ugly, you are not going to be approaching someone with a con that depends on sweet-talking them and flashy good looks.  HOWEVER, if you encounter an NPC who is jaded and soulless, but still likes a pretty face, and your ST says, "it's difficulty 3 for Manipulation but difficulty 1 for Appearance", then you would be more careful to think about what your approach would be.  You can scoff, but many powerful people exist like this in the real world, and I want you to go look up the definition of "trophy wife" before you disagree with me.

Oh but I don't disagree with that. As I said, I am very aware of the huge impact physical attraction has on social interactions. What I am saying is that I don't think the Attribute Appearance is the right way to handle it.

 

[Persell]

But physical attractiveness is determined by the geometry of your face. The rest is covered nicely by Charisma and, well, personality.

You're missing my point.  The rest is NOT covered nicely by those things.  The rest is covered by the reactions people have to seeing the face you have (and your body, and so forth).  If you want to try that argument, convince me that personality changes frequently enough to merit rolling Charisma.

I am sorry. I meant the rest of what Appearance coveres. As I understand the Attribute it determines how beautiful you are and how well you handle your beauty. Am I correct in that?


I don't think an Attribute should handle how beautiful you are. And Charisma (and Manipulation and Composure for that matter) is fine for determining how well you handle your beauty (or ugliness).

Different people react differently to the same face, and may even do so over time.  You can gradually realize someone is highly attractive when you formerly dismissed them - NOT because of personality either.  Someone can strike you as ugly, while another person finds that very same individual - at the same moment, in similar circumstances - to be pretty.  This happens all the time, all around the world.  Have doubts?  Don't go ask people if your theory sounds right.  Go ask them, "hey, do you ever disagree with your friends about someone's attractiveness?"

Yes! Exactly! People react differently to the same face. That is exactly why looks shouldn't be determined by an Attribute. It is a matter of taste. App 3 might be App 4 to someone else.


But on the other hand, it has been proven that our idea of beauty builds on the symmetry of facial features. When we see a face we instinctively decode it in terms of how symmetrical it is and that's what our base reaction builds on. After that questions of taste comes in. That's a useless Attribute. Your face is your face (/body etc). You are born with it and it wont change unless you are mortal and grow old and in that case your App would fall except for those who prefers old people (other old people, for instance). You may be able to disguise your features, but you can't actually change them... Well with magic and surgery you can. OK. But not naturally. I am repeating myself. I will shut up now.

 

[Persell]

I appreciate the discussion about how realistic the attribute is or not, but honestly at the end of the day the question is "does it help the game?" and not if it is realistic that all react the same to app 4. There is stuff appearance is good for and that is all that matters to me really while discarding appearance seems to invite a whole lot of balancing issues, especially at character generation.

 

[Lotus1]

i dont know why but i never play an ugly character, the minimum my appearance can be is 3. But most characters are around 4 or 5. i just like pretty people.

 

[Persell]

i dont know why but i never play an ugly character, the minimum my appearance can be is 3. But most characters are around 4 or 5. i just like pretty people.

My girlfriend have that quirk too. Must be a trend among pretty people. Me, I like to play ugly characters... doh!

 

[Persell]

I appreciate the discussion about how realistic the attribute is or not, but honestly at the end of the day the question is "does it help the game?" and not if it is realistic that all react the same to app 4.

Nope. The only thing that matters is that Memesis and I are having a good rules discussion. Let us have our fun!

There is stuff appearance is good for and that is all that matters to me really while discarding appearance seems to invite a whole lot of balancing issues, especially at character generation.

Not really. Mostly Composure handles what Appearance used to handle - just without the physical element. The Attribute is now purely social. It actually gives more balance to the Attributes as a whole.