Anti-cult?

[Vanman]

I like it too - though it doesn't do exactly what JM is proposing. He's talking (and correct me if I'm wrong here, JM) about a more generalized effect that just takes Essence away from the character. I do admit that I'm assuming a lot, but that's the take I had on what he wanted.


Having said that, I, too, like what LB proposed. It's simple, and it is much more specific in its applicability. I like this for that very reason.

 

[Persell]

Not necessarily removing essence from them, but definitely something more generalized. Having someone decide to attack the PCs, or the PCs convincing someone to attack their enemies doesn't require inventing a new background. Attacking the PCs just requires that I think it would be logical/fun for them to be attacked. Them bribing an attack could be done via prayers (perhaps the loan of their cult) or other methods.

 

[Persell]

Have the prayers (yes, your anti prayers are still prayers) go to some god of whatever with some custom curse charm that does what you want.
Citizens of City X are afriad of Mr Nasty Solar.  They say big prayers hoping he dies.  Some archtypical god strides up and offers to protect the city.  A statue of him is built and fresh flowers are woven into a crown by a dozen virgins every day of the year.  He uses a charm that gives Mr Nasty Solar a penalty equal to the essence of the god every action he takes against the city and within essence x10 miles he regens mana at half the normal rate.


DONE!  And without houserules about anti-prayers.

Hey, you use common sense AND seem to have read canon... what do you do around here? ^^


I like this ruling, too.

 

[Ned]

I'm working under the assumptiong that negative prayers can have an effect

In the Blood and Salt book there is a canon God who only gets negative prayers and still has a huge cult rating: The Pale Lady. It specifically says that the only types of prays she gets are of the form "stay away you evil monster" rather than "you are really awesome, but you'd super awesome if you didn't wander through our village."


Lord Ben's solution is the only way that the effect you want will work.


It would be pretty cool for a Solar to start up a cult that fears him though. With normal cults you have to show up every now and again to keep people liking you, but with this cult the less you act the harder they'll pray because "it's working." If you do sense a drop in prayers, you just head over and kick down a house screaming "Haha, now I have the power to attack because you stopped whatever you were doing to stop me."

 

[Persell]

Lord Ben's solution is the only way that the effect you want will work.

I assume you mean the only way within canon? I don't care about canon. At least, not enough to let it negatively impact my crativity and fun.

 

[Persell]

Here's what I'm thinking so far:


Cult of Negativity (still needs a good name)


<insert flavor text here>


Trait Effects:


• You control a half dozen priests and priestesses, each with a group of 4 - 8 acolytes.


•• Approximately 200 - 400 people direct their focused hatred for your desires.


••• Several thousand people direct the negativity towards your enemies on a daily basis.


•••• Tens of thousands chant spite at your foes at least twice a day.


••••• You have groups of channelers pocketed all across creation.


A Cult of Negativity may be directed at another individual, focusing intense amounts of hatred through minor thaumaturgical rites. This hatred generates karmic static around the victim, interrupting the flow of essence from worshippers, and even causing bouts of ill fortune.


If the target has a Cult background, the Cult of Negativity negates dots of Cult on a one-for-one basis. This will lower the amount of essence gained, and can negate the Willpower gain if the Cult is reduced to zero dots.


Should the target not have worshippers, or have a smaller congregation than the Cult of Negativity, the effects are even more drastic. Each dot in excess of the target's cult background may be used once per story to change one of the target's failures to a botch. This can be negated by spedning 4 motes and a point of willpower. Alternatively, two uses may be spent to convert a successful roll into a botch, which may be negated by 8 motes and 2 willpower.


--


I'm still a little iffy on the numbers, and not sure about negating Cult with Cult of Negativity, but only because it seems a little too pat. It feels right from a symmetric rules standpoint.

 

[Jukashi]

The rules, as rules, seem fine enough, if the Storyteller uses it wisely. But it doesn't really work as a background; if you control this cult, what does it do for you? when that combat-monster Dawn gets in your face, those failure conversions aren't going to stop his second excellency from planting a daiklaive in your face. In fact, since every magical creature in Exalted has Excellencies now anyway, the second excellency essentially stops this mechanic from interfering with anything important they do.


It seems to me more that this would be taken as an "anti-background" Flaw, similar to Dark Fate. However, that sort of effect is already better covered by bad Luck.


I have to say, I'm still not in favour of this system. Aside from the canon, I have to ask how it actually improves the game. There's very little satisfaction to be had, in a game as epic in scale as Exalted, in doing what amounts to inconveniencing your enemies. Unless they've got some sort of magical tracking system in place, they won't even know it's happening. And if it happens to your players, they're not going to get any fun with it; from their perspective, it'll just be a random bit of annoyance from behind the Storyteller screen. Even if they try to fix it, slogging around Creation flashing your Social/Combat charms at nameless mooks who already hate you lacks the epic tone that any of the other similar disadvantages have.


Cult works not only because it provides essence and willpower, but because players get a cheap thrill out of having their characters worshipped. When it comes to difficulties, however, players only see them as obstacles to be overcome. In the case of Dark Fate or bad Luck, it makes their character cooler by afflicting them with an innate weakness that they can heroically strive against. There's nothing, or little at least, they can do about those. With this, however, there are enemies - enemies that it's no fun to fight and are numerous enough that it becomes a chore, but that the player still feels they need to get rid of.


Essentially: How is this fun?

 

[Persell]

if you control this cult, what does it do for you?

You aim it at your enemies.

when that combat-monster Dawn gets in your face, those failure conversions aren't going to stop his second excellency from planting a daiklaive in your face.

True, but burning two uses will. And I guess we just have different games, but nobody I've seen uses second excellencies for their daiklave.

In fact, since every magical creature in Exalted has Excellencies now anyway, the second excellency essentially stops this mechanic from interfering with anything important they do.

Again, I don't see a lot of second excellency usage. If you do, then the background would have to be changed to better fit your group's style. And there's always the second option.

It seems to me more that this would be taken as an "anti-background" Flaw, similar to Dark Fate. However, that sort of effect is already better covered by bad Luck.

We don't use flaws, although if we did I'd allow this as one.

Essentially: How is this fun?

For you, it apparently isn't. Given that, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to convince you that it's fun. For me it's fun because it offers more options, and I'm a huge fan of versatility.

 

[Gtroc]

basically it looks to be the spiritual equivalent to ping damage. could you get more than one "nega-cult" following you? if so you could just ping the hell out of a guys rolls. it seems kind non-exalted. the game would very rapidly turn into who can get the most anti-cults. it is ripe for abuse. also, on a bit of a side note, if you are intent on making rules outside of canon, why bring it up? if you want to do it then do it. if you want to argue wether or not it is exalted canon capable then bring that to the forum. but to ignore arguments against due to the following of canon rules, is a bit silly. all we have as a standard by which we measure is canon. we way all things, gamewise, against it. just my two cents.

 

[Persell]

could you get more than one "nega-cult" following you?

No. If for some reason you had multiple nega-cults aimed at you, their numbers would combine together to determine the total rating.

also, on a bit of a side note, if you are intent on making rules outside of canon, why bring it up?

Because by sharing my ideas and discussing them I refine them. I'm not convinced of my own perfection enough that I assume anything I think up is automatically wonderful. I like to run it past people first.

if you want to do it then do it. if you want to argue wether or not it is exalted canon capable then bring that to the forum. but to ignore arguments against due to the following of canon rules, is a bit silly. all we have as a standard by which we measure is canon. we way all things, gamewise, against it. just my two cents.

Perhaps that's the only standard you have, but you are not everyone, and your standards are not universal.

 

[NamelessJoe]

why dont you just make a occult or pressence or socialize or martial arts charm tree that does the same thing? or somthing


abyssal... maybe?


final charm


2wp 10 motes reflexive (step2ish)


causes instant fumble to said action

 

[Persell]

I was wrong, you gave mortals something better than sidereal astrology and managed to rape the metaphysical background of the game on the way. Congratulations  :?

 

[Persell]

why dont you just make a occult or pressence or socialize or martial arts charm tree that does the same thing? or somthing
abyssal... maybe?


final charm


2wp 10 motes reflexive (step2ish)


causes instant fumble to said action

I might, but my goal with this is to give a dark mirror to the cult background.

 

[Persell]

I was wrong, you gave mortals something better than sidereal astrology and managed to rape the metaphysical background of the game on the way. Congratulations  :?

Glad you liked it!


Can you explain how it's better than Sidereal Astrology? That certainly wasn't the intent, and I'm not seeing it myself (probably due to my unfamiliarity with the siddies).

 

[Persell]

Well, sidereal astrology works on the same mechanical level so to say. You throw some stones at your enemies from afar. Yet sidereal astrology has no means whatsoever to make a solar botch, none. It could reduce its chance at success and perhaps increase his botch chance that way, and help his enemies, but that was about it. You know... 90% of all solars have on cult rating whatsoever. With the immaculate order at their disposal, dragonblooded could easily fuck over any solar. The bull of the north would not have won against the tepet legions this way. Becouse he would have botched two to three times during that campaign. That is an insanely powerful effect and before essence 4 and the purchase of the "weaker" excellencies, even a solar has practically no defense against it.


To be short, it is an extremely crappy mechanic and way too powerful for a mere background. Metaphysical and background issues aside.

 

[Persell]

Well, sidereal astrology works on the same mechanical level so to say. You throw some stones at your enemies from afar. Yet sidereal astrology has no means whatsoever to make a solar botch, none. It could reduce its chance at success and perhaps increase his botch chance that way, and help his enemies, but that was about it. You know... 90% of all solars have on cult rating whatsoever. With the immaculate order at their disposal, dragonblooded could easily fuck over any solar. The bull of the north would not have won against the tepet legions this way. Becouse he would have botched two to three times during that campaign. That is an insanely powerful effect and before essence 4 and the purchase of the "weaker" excellencies, even a solar has practically no defense against it.
To be short, it is an extremely crappy mechanic and way too powerful for a mere background. Metaphysical and background issues aside.

Did you miss the fact that the botch can be negated? Did you also miss the insane versatility of sidereal astrology? Perhaps they can't duplicate this particular effect (which amounts to at most 5 botches if you control an entire nation worth of thaumaturgically enhanced anti-prayer), but they can do sooo much more.


Also, it's "karma" directing these things, not any particular entity. The head of the Wyld Hunt can't waggle his fingers and say "botch now!" He has to send his negavibes out with everyone else's and hope for the best.

 

[tjcoonrod]

Ultimately, it is your game - do as you wish.


I do not understand if you are set on doing this, why post the query to begin with? You seem to be against everything that everybody else has said, so why do you need a seal of approval? Just go do it.


I would advise taking caution, this will go against and hurt your players more than it will help them.


If they are DBs, who have the smallest essence pools, 4m or 8m 1wp is a *lot* of essence to even an ess 4 or 5 dragonblood. I have seen DB combats where the PCs have ended with a few motes, or totally spent.


Everything else has to contend with, as previously mentioned, the Immaculate Order. The Immaculate Order is basically a cult. And it hates everything except DB.


If this cant waggle and say 'botch now' then this only serves as detriment to the players. They can not benefit from this background, as the only true serving of purpose would be for them to be able to 'botch now' on that big guy who is swinging that daiklave at me. But this tool would surely be used against them.


Not to mention it makes buying the cult background, with this antibackground, pointless. You would, with some evil cult npc leader who hates the pcs, basically negate a player who potentially bought the cult background.


I personally liked Lord Ben's reply. That would not only do what you want, but also could create a whole plot arc, and a few others after it, and still have the intention of doing what you want, all while retaining the whole Exalted feel.


But this is all just my personal opinion, of course.

 

[Flagg]

I do not understand if you are set on doing this, why post the query to begin with? You seem to be against everything that everybody else has said, so why do you need a seal of approval? Just go do it.

This seems to be James "Flying Invisible Fortress" McMurray's MO. He comes up with a concept that breaks canon, asks for opinions, and then gets irate when people point it out, and doesn't take any advice.

 

[Persell]

Ultimately, it is your game - do as you wish.
I do not understand if you are set on doing this, why post the query to begin with? You seem to be against everything that everybody else has said, so why do you need a seal of approval? Just go do it.

If you scroll up a couple posts you'll see where I already answered this question. And I'm not against everything that everyone says, just the people saying it won't work. I'm not looking to make it unworkable, I'm looking to make it workable. If all anyone has to throw at me is negative vibes I'll point out the irony and move on.

If they are DBs, who have the smallest essence pools, 4m or 8m 1wp is a *lot* of essence to even an ess 4 or 5 dragonblood. I have seen DB combats where the PCs have ended with a few motes, or totally spent.

They're not DBs, and I'm not married to the numbers yet. What do you think would be a more reasonable number, considering Solar PCs whose primary enemies are currently DBs?

If this cant waggle and say 'botch now' then this only serves as detriment to the players. They can not benefit from this background, as the only true serving of purpose would be for them to be able to 'botch now' on that big guy who is swinging that daiklave at me. But this tool would surely be used against them.

why can't they benefit from the background? Sure, they don't control the timing, but that doesn't make it worthless unless I, as GM, decide to be a dick. I try not to be a dick.

Not to mention it makes buying the cult background, with this antibackground, pointless. You would, with some evil cult npc leader who hates the pcs, basically negate a player who potentially bought the cult background.

It's only pointles if everyone you go against also has the same rating of anti-cult. And even then it acts as a shield against the botching aspect, so not completely worthless.

I personally liked Lord Ben's reply. That would not only do what you want, but also could create a whole plot arc, and a few others after it, and still have the intention of doing what you want, all while retaining the whole Exalted feel.

Sorry, I'm more interested in fun than feel.

But this is all just my personal opinion, of course.

Of course, and it's appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Persell]

I do not understand if you are set on doing this, why post the query to begin with? You seem to be against everything that everybody else has said, so why do you need a seal of approval? Just go do it.

This seems to be James "Flying Invisible Fortress" McMurray's MO. He comes up with a concept that breaks canon, asks for opinions, and then gets irate when people point it out, and doesn't take any advice.

And Flagg's MO is apparently to not read threads. I've taken advice in this thread and the flying fortress thread. Sure, I don't take advice that amounts to "ur idea suxxorz!" But when people have something constructive to say I listen and use it if it works for me and my players.

 

[Jukashi]

For me it's fun because it offers more options' date=' and I'm a huge fan of versatility.[/quote']
Do you know anyone who would take this particular option?


I mean, take it as a background. With your limited selection of bonus points available at character creation, do you a) Get two dots of anti-cult, which will randomly cause your enemy two instances of bad luck in a story, and which you will in all likelihood not even be able to verify happened, or negate some of his extra /essence willpower... b) get yourself a shiny magic sword that you can cut some heads off with... c) get some of your own cultists, which will essentially provide to you what you're denying him and negate his advantage over you just the same ... or d) any of the multitude of other Background options.


It doesn't become better when gained in play. Co-ordinating such a massive hate-on will take a lot of time and resources, even if it's just to properly focus the malevolence of the people who already hate them. That same time could easily go towards setting up your own cult, which is much more emotionally rewarding for players.

 

[Lord Ben]

The problem is that worship works a certain way.  If you'd implement your idea suddenly Luna gets all kinds of bad luck in the games of divinity because people fear her and she gets antiworship.


You can get the exact results you want without violating canon.  So really there isn't a good reason to go around inventing new mechanics.

 

[Persell]

To be plain: It is not our fault that your idea sucks. Stop being so bloody defensive.

 

[Haku1]

James,


I would personally go with Lord Ben's suggestion for a specific god/spirit/elemental/demon/ghost(s) working with a worshipper base, getting prayers to do X things to a target, within limits of what said being can do.


And the point system represents how many people HAET you, you in -specific-.


Please be aware that Cult is considered a flaw with varying levels.


Anti-Cult


0 - no one haets you, what kind of a pisspoor anathema, are you?


* - a small group of priests, perhaps a half dozen, have bribed some god to lay the hax on you. Every morning, when rolling conviction for willpower, subtract 1 die, down to a minimum of 1.


** - A large community/village or several small villages absolutely haets you. They've hired a bigger god for hire or several to deal with you. Subtract 1 die when rolling for willpower in the morning, down to a minimum of 1. The haet for you can be felt by you as you recover essence, when recovering essence, there is a penalty of 2 motes reduced for every hour of mote recovery.


*** - There are daily prayers to a mighty god to deal with you in a large community/town, or several smaller villages. Subtract 2 die when rolling for willpower in the morning, down to a minimum of 1. Every hour, you take a penalty of 3 motes reduction when recovering motes.


**** - You're doing REALLY good as an anathema now. An entire nation has prayers to various gods, spirits, elementals, demons and even ghosts to deal with YOU. In the morning, when rolling for willpower, you take an external penalty of 1 success to your conviction roll. Every hour, you take a penalty of 4 motes reduction when recovering motes.


***** - Dude, you've hit the BIG time, an entire region absolutely haets you. There is, in fact, an entire religion based on haeting you. With prayers going to any spiritual being capable of smacking you metaphysically. Your very name is a curse-word, and you are considered to be the next thing just under the Yozi Princes to haet and fear. In the morning, when rolling for willpower, you take an external penalty of 2 successes to your conviction roll. Every hour, you're looking at a penalty of 6 motes reduction towards your mote recovery.

 

[Persell]

For me it's fun because it offers more options' date=' and I'm a huge fan of versatility.[/quote']
Do you know anyone who would take this particular option?


I mean, take it as a background. With your limited selection of bonus points available at character creation, do you a) Get two dots of anti-cult, which will randomly cause your enemy two instances of bad luck in a story, and which you will in all likelihood not even be able to verify happened, or negate some of his extra /essence willpower... b) get yourself a shiny magic sword that you can cut some heads off with... c) get some of your own cultists, which will essentially provide to you what you're denying him and negate his advantage over you just the same ... or d) any of the multitude of other Background options.


It doesn't become better when gained in play. Co-ordinating such a massive hate-on will take a lot of time and resources, even if it's just to properly focus the malevolence of the people who already hate them. That same time could easily go towards setting up your own cult, which is much more emotionally rewarding for players.

I do not know of anyone that would take it at character creation, but I do know of a few players that may work towards it during play, probably by coordinating their own cult backgrounds.