Alchemicals: Such a disapointment

[LaFreeze]

Okay I got a friend to lend me some exalted books recently and while I loved most of them like the Infernals the Alchemicals are just such a disappointment. It...just doesn't seem to mesh well at all with the rest of Exalted. Now first off, let me say I am HIGHLY bias because all my preconceptions were based off of Nova and I was expecting a book describing new born Mechanical exalted released into Creation with missions from the Machine God (Primordial) developing persona as they went and taking there place among creation's exalted.


Instead what I got was a B sci-drama about people trapped in a tin can and a few suggestions on how to turn creation upside down if you felt like it. The Alchemicals just don't seem to fit smoothly into creation, it is almost like a totally different game and most of the stuff seem to be build around the idea you won't be in creation at all but battling the void in the Alchemicals home world.


Sigh. Sorry to vent but the whole thing kind of sucks. Alchemicals being just another type of exalted human with a bunch of past lives, the whole disconnect from the rest of Exalted, the lack of good new villains with plots and motivation, the really lame idea that Alchemicals just transform into cities it all really bothers me.


Even thematically the ideas don't work for me. Basically in the good ending outlined the Great Maker returns to creations, sucks in another few billions souls and munches on them until he feels better. The idea of helping the boss eat a much of souls seems like something more fit for the Abyssals or Infernal exalted. It was the book I was most looking forward to and it seems to be the crappiest I've read so far. I just don't see an easy way to run Alchemicals into a normal game in Creation without making some serious house rules for them. The thought that most people complain about Lunars not Alchemicals now makes me dread reading that book.


Does anyone else feel this way or am I just not getting what Alchemicals are all about?

 

[magnificentmomo]

I'm a little busy right now, so I'll lay some knowledge on you later. I've never seen most of your particular gripes before, though some of them come close to some common criticisms. It is usually heralded as one of the most mechanically tight books of second edition, at least charm wise, protocols and some artifacts can be a bit controversiial.


More to come.

 

[Kyeudo]

Instead what I got was a B sci-drama about people trapped in a tin can and a few suggestions on how to turn creation upside down if you felt like it. The Alchemicals just don't seem to fit smoothly into creation, it is almost like a totally different game and most of the stuff seem to be build around the idea you won't be in creation at all but battling the void in the Alchemicals home world.

That's the point. The Alchemicals are NOT part of Creation's established system of Exalted. The Solars rule, the Lunars guard, the Sidereals advise, and the Terrestrials serve, but the Alchemicals have never interacted with the rest. They don't really even know about the rest.

Sigh. Sorry to vent but the whole thing kind of sucks. Alchemicals being just another type of exalted human with a bunch of past lives, the whole disconnect from the rest of Exalted, the lack of good new villains with plots and motivation, the really lame idea that Alchemicals just transform into cities it all really bothers me.

You seem to miss that Alchemicals have Apostates and gremlins to worry about as well as other nations competing for the limited resources remaining in Autochthonia. Alchemicals are going to spend most of their time dealing with other Alchemicals, rogue gods and elementals, and the hazards of living inside what might as well be the Death Star crossed with every factory movie set ever.


Alchemicals becoming cities just gives you cyber-punk cities and an easy to use scope for your adventures. You don't have to really worry about what happens at Essence 8 or more because there won't really be characters adventuring at that stage.

Even thematically the ideas don't work for me. Basically in the good ending outlined the Great Maker returns to creations, sucks in another few billions souls and munches on them until he feels better. The idea of helping the boss eat a much of souls seems like something more fit for the Abyssals or Infernal exalted. It was the book I was most looking forward to and it seems to be the crappiest I've read so far. I just don't see an easy way to run Alchemicals into a normal game in Creation without making some serious house rules for them. The thought that most people complain about Lunars not Alchemicals now makes me dread reading that book.

Actually, Autochthon just needs to assimilate a large amount of fresh Essence. The po souls of mortals are just the most portable of power sources. Once he gets back to Creation he'll probably fill his tank by processing power out of the Wyld. Besides, even if he did chow down on some fresh Po souls it wouldn't be any real loss. The po isn't a person, its that person's hungry ghost. Getting rid of these leftovers would be doing Creation a favor.


Alchemicals excite people because they have an elegant Charm set, are well-integrated in their own fluff, and pull from alot of themes that Creation's Exalted can't touch. They are Reploids straight out of Megaman X hunting Mavericks in the slowly dying body of Primus from Transformers. You can be Robo-Cop, Zero, Master Chief, or your favorite Gundam and take on the Borg backed by the General Grevious clones. It has depth and potential in ways Creation itself cannot offer.

Does anyone else feel this way or am I just not getting what Alchemicals are all about?

I think you are in the minority.

 

[magnificentmomo]

There is also the fact that Alchemicals were originally presented as optional material in 1e. They were used to introduce another venue for the kitchen sink setting of Exalted. At the beginning of 2nd edition they were still assumed to be optional, but that assumption faded as more and more books came out. They are supposed to be an encapsulated setting that just happens to be connected to Creation, and can become a part of it if you so choose, but now it isn't so much if you so choose but ore of a Chekhov's Gun sort of thing.


Jukashi stated up front that his Alchemicals are tangentially related to the real thing (Even though Nova is semi-canon, she gets a shout-out in the Character Creation Sidebar about names).


Still, what you want from Alchemicals is still there, you just might not be seeing it. What exactly did you want? I personally love Alchemicals, so I would be more than happy to spread the love.


Lunar Sidenote: When Lunars first came out, people cried foul because DBT and Fury looked really cool, and since they could power up so quickly they were incredibly lethal, and there used to be huge fights about how Solars can never kill Lunars. That faded obviously, either people examined more closely the mechanics, or power creep left Lunars in the dust, or some combination of the two.


People's complaints with Lunars is that they have been mechanically left behind, and thematically left behind. Every other splat has grown (except arguably Sidereals, except they got Greater Astrology, which doesn't entirely solve everthing) and Lunars haven't.


Here are some somewhat biased essays/examples from the debut of Lunars.


Solar V Lunar


and Circle V Pack


Infernal Sidenote: Infernals have a similar odd man out feeling, because they are. They were just created this edition, they weren't fully fleshed out in the original outline, so they had to rip out a new place for themselves when they came on the scene, and I think they like it that way.


Also, don't let their chapter 1 spook you, someone got a little carried away with that chapter. All the follow up material has drifted away from that ideal, except maybe one of the authors of Return of the Scarlet Empress. But this just demonstrates why people working on different parts of books should talk to one another.

 

[LaFreeze]

Warning, long response ahead

That's the point. The Alchemicals are NOT part of Creation's established system of Exalted. The Solars rule, the Lunars guard, the Sidereals advise, and the Terrestrials serve, but the Alchemicals have never interacted with the rest. They don't really even know about the rest.

Having that in the lore is one thing, but it is another thing to set the game up mechanically that way with no good way to add Alchemicals to a normal game of exalted without jumping through considerable hoops or house ruling a lot of the lore.

You seem to miss that Alchemicals have Apostates and gremlins to worry about as well as other nations competing for the limited resources remaining in Autochthonia. Alchemicals are going to spend most of their time dealing with other Alchemicals, rogue gods and elementals, and the hazards of living inside what might as well be the Death Star crossed with every factory movie set ever.

Yea but compared to the Deathlords or Demon Princes gremlins are pretty lame. Food shortages and droids gone bad don't really compare to the Mask of Winter or Scarlet Empress.

Alchemicals becoming cities just gives you cyber-punk cities and an easy to use scope for your adventures. You don't have to really worry about what happens at Essence 8 or more because there won't really be characters adventuring at that stage.

Yea but this is hardly an exciting end for a long played character. The idea of being a city is obviously not one even most Exalts find appealing according to the lore. Imagine if the lore said Essence 8 Solars got turned into playing pieces of the divine games as a reward for all their hard work, It seems a lame way for an epic hero or villain to end.

Actually, Autochthon just needs to assimilate a large amount of fresh Essence. The po souls of mortals are just the most portable of power sources. Once he gets back to Creation he'll probably fill his tank by processing power out of the Wyld. Besides, even if he did chow down on some fresh Po souls it wouldn't be any real loss. The po isn't a person, its that person's hungry ghost. Getting rid of these leftovers would be doing Creation a favor.

The lore doesn't really support that. It doesn't go so much into in the 2E books but in 1E where it gets more details it says Autochthon only eats po because he didn't have a firm understanding of the rest of the soul when he went to sleep rather then any benevolence on his part. Further in both editions it clear that eating all these souls is depleting the population permanently which is part of the problem. It also makes clear when he returns he sucks in millions of souls extinguishing them from the loom of fate so it doesn't seem like his soul eating ways are likely to change.

Alchemicals excite people because they have an elegant Charm set, are well-integrated in their own fluff, and pull from alot of themes that Creation's Exalted can't touch. They are Reploids straight out of Megaman X hunting Mavericks in the slowly dying body of Primus from Transformers. You can be Robo-Cop, Zero, Master Chief, or your favorite Gundam and take on the Borg backed by the General Grevious clones. It has depth and potential in ways Creation itself cannot offer.
I think you are in the minority.

That may well be true, but it remains that it is in effect a whole different setting from the rest of exalted which, in my opinion, sucks because every other bit of the series is designed to be worked into the setting not set apart from it. This might as well be a full spin off setting like D&D has with Eberon vs the Forgotten Realms. Yea they say you can crossover in you want to but clearly rules mostly support these being played separately because the introduction of most of the Alchemical material massively changes the norm for creation rather then fits seamlessly into such as with the Infernal exalted.


Yes I can be a Gundam but you end up being a Gundam shoe horned into Star Wars. Yea in can work in a setting with AT-ATs, clearly walking robots with guns exist in such a universe, but it seems a bit out of place. Why doesn't the empire have Gundams then, why are AT-AT's so crappy by comparison? etc. etc. By contrast adding a Lunar, Abyssal, Terrestrial or Infernal has no such issues.


Anyway thanks for your opinion, I appreciate an opinion from someone who has played more Exalted then I have. Perhaps it is just me who has this POV.

There is also the fact that Alchemicals were originally presented as optional material in 1e. They were used to introduce another venue for the kitchen sink setting of Exalted. At the beginning of 2nd edition they were still assumed to be optional, but that assumption faded as more and more books came out. They are supposed to be an encapsulated setting that just happens to be connected to Creation, and can become a part of it if you so choose, but now it isn't so much if you so choose but ore of a Chekhov's Gun sort of thing.

That is exactly what is feels like and that is, to a great extent, exactly what bothers me.

Jukashi stated up front that his Alchemicals are tangentially related to the real thing (Even though Nova is semi-canon, she gets a shout-out in the Character Creation Sidebar about names).
Still, what you want from Alchemicals is still there, you just might not be seeing it. What exactly did you want? I personally love Alchemicals, so I would be more than happy to spread the love.

Well I was looking more for totally new mechanical life made by the machine god and set into creation on a mission evolving along the way not repurposed humans (Which already seemed to be covered elsewhere). The whole thing has a life in a tin can vibe and I was rather looking for something more along the lines of a probe sent to a far away world among other things. I'm sure I could still play that, but it would be a very house rules take on things and doesn't really resemble how the designers seemed to have intended for Alchemicals to be.

Lunar Sidenote: When Lunars first came out, people cried foul because DBT and Fury looked really cool, and since they could power up so quickly they were incredibly lethal, and there used to be huge fights about how Solars can never kill Lunars. That faded obviously, either people examined more closely the mechanics, or power creep left Lunars in the dust, or some combination of the two.
People's complaints with Lunars is that they have been mechanically left behind, and thematically left behind. Every other splat has grown (except arguably Sidereals, except they got Greater Astrology, which doesn't entirely solve everthing) and Lunars haven't.


Here are some somewhat biased essays/examples from the debut of Lunars.


Solar V Lunar


and Circle V Pack

I see. Well at least Lunars seem to get a lot of love from the community. I always see threads on improving or house ruling Lunars.

Infernal Sidenote: Infernals have a similar odd man out feeling, because they are. They were just created this edition, they weren't fully fleshed out in the original outline, so they had to rip out a new place for themselves when they came on the scene, and I think they like it that way.
Also, don't let their chapter 1 spook you, someone got a little carried away with that chapter. All the follow up material has drifted away from that ideal, except maybe one of the authors of Return of the Scarlet Empress. But this just demonstrates why people working on different parts of books should talk to one another.

Actually from what I've read so far I really like the Infernals. They seem to fill an interesting nitch and while they might have been neglected a bit, (The war of the Locus for example talks a lot about the Death Lords would do but not the Infernals Princes) they do feel like they could easily be added to any game. Further I just felt like their unique twists on exaltation and the like was a nice new take on things.


It seems like you could easily add Infernals to an existing story, scenario or game. They would, for example easily fit into the Locus War or a Death Lord plot and there seems to be so much potential there. Now adding in Alchemicals to a major existing plot of the Ebon Dragon...not so much so and that is what bothers me most about them. I freely admit it comes from the preconceptions and expectations, but I'm just bother by how they are the only odd man out so speak.


Thanks for your insights.

 

[magnificentmomo]

Re: Warning, long response ahead

*snip*


Yea but compared to the Deathlords or Demon Princes gremlins are pretty lame. Food shortages and droids gone bad don't really compare to the Mask of Winter or Scarlet Empress.


*snip*

This is more part and partial to the fact that the Realm of Autocthon hasn't been as developed as Creation. There are some scary ass Gremlins out there. The first big threat that comes to mind is the hinted at mobile apostate patropolis just tear-assing through and eating and destroying everything. Then there is the Gremlinised giant worm thing from the artifact section. True, these are more horrors than masterminds, but if there aren't any new apostate masterminds (which mind you apostates are new to this edition) in the Compass Autobot I will be sorely disappointed.


There is also the fact that the 8 nations can go to war at any moment, which could turn into a Big Fucking Deal, but right now the personalities at play just aren't as fleshed out.

Well I was looking more for totally new mechanical life made by the machine god and set into creation on a mission evolving along the way not repurposed humans (Which already seemed to be covered elsewhere). The whole thing has a life in a tin can vibe and I was rather looking for something more along the lines of a probe sent to a far away world among other things. I'm sure I could still play that, but it would be a very house rules take on things and doesn't really resemble how the designers seemed to have intended for Alchemicals to be.

The thing about the alchemicals is that they aren't actually re-purposed humans, they were never humans. Their psyche is more akin to Data, who has the memories of everyone from the colony where he was found, than anything else, only they have flesh and bones, just made out of clays and metal.


Calling Autobot a tin can is like calling Creation a flat earth, it is a gross understatement. Autobot is as much a tin can as Malfeas is. They are both indomitably huge. Once again, the material is underwhelming because it is underpresented. There are eight nations, which sounds small, but each of those eight nations is most likely the size of the US or Europe.


The city thing, can't be helped. It may feel like a Bad End, but it is the physical manifestation of the Alchemical condition. You work for the state, and you eventually become part of the state. That is just one more thing to fight against. It provides great RP fodder. Also, your city can shoot out clones of its past self, so it ain't all bad.


I would recommend letting your kneejerk reactions subside, and giving it another read. Especially the ST section. ST sections are some of the best chapters in most books, and they are usually overlooked. Honestly, it is one of the first chapters I turn to.


Ed: also, read the Character Creation chapter, those things have more in them than just what your stats are supposed to be. They are meant to serve as introduction the setting and the mindset of the character, if written properly, which the Alchies one is because Holden wrote it.

 

[Cryoseraph]

Actually, for all of the arguments for and against it, comparing an Alchemical game to Eberron may be better than you realize. Exalted has a lot of fantasy elements, but a few items bleed into what people would consider over-technological, primarily First Age Magi-tech & Warstriders. I've seen games that avoid them completely, and feel the better for it. Then others love this stuff, describe any improvements to anything they own as technological advances (Essence Cannon doesn't recharge faster, it spins and brings up another barrel instead). These are the people who would jump on Alchemicals for the magic-technical goodies involved alone. I'd compare it to Eberron because it involves spreading the magical wealth around to the common man, and then using that technological jump to push the plot towards things not common in Fantasy.


Autocthonia has very different themes associated with it, themes you largely can't have in Creation proper. Number One theme to me is the despair of the place. Autocthon is dying and in a coma. Worse yet is that the only thing keeping him alive are the humans inside him. His lower souls fight between themselves and worry just as much about human expansion as the gremlin corruption. The materials inside his form are limited and running out, and that's without the Void problem. Autocthon has a malignant presence inside him that is killing him, turning his own body against him in a kind of sentient cancer. Most of the Second Edition of the book focuses on games that stay in Autocthonia, with little push towards Locust War scenarios, despite that being their main focus in the First Edition version of Alchemicals.


Now mechanics are of course their own entity of issues. They share the attribute-based charm tree strangeness of Lunars. Combined with Fair Folk and Infernals, these styles of charm trees are much tougher for people to suss out combos or to get good use out of charms without buying too many extra charms they won't use. Now, to figure out this stuff, it takes time and eventually house-ruling to make everyone feel proper about it. Lunars have had years to get analyzed, combo-ed up, playtested by the best & worst munchkins and graded appropriately. Alchemicals have had very little time by comparison, and as far as I know they haven't had any errata yet. Additionally, their charms are installed into them, and so follow different purchase and use rules. That takes a lot of games to get used to having charms 'in storage' for later use instead of always available. There are also tons of empty spaces for charm ideas, the biggest of them being the high essence charms for the Colossal sized Essence 6-7, and the City sized Essence 8+ stuff. At the very least having the charms that let you channel through into a normal sized body would be good to figure out. (And the multiple copies of you for the city sized versions). So they have lots of space to grow, either through supplements, ink-monkey work, or good old fashioned house-rules.

 

[LaFreeze]

Re: Warning, long response ahead

This is more part and partial to the fact that the Realm of Autocthon hasn't been as developed as Creation. There are some scary ass Gremlins out there. The first big threat that comes to mind is the hinted at mobile apostate patropolis just tear-assing through and eating and destroying everything. Then there is the Gremlinised giant worm thing from the artifact section. True, these are more horrors than masterminds, but if there aren't any new apostate masterminds (which mind you apostates are new to this edition) in the Compass Autobot I will be sorely disappointed.
There is also the fact that the 8 nations can go to war at any moment, which could turn into a Big Fucking Deal, but right now the personalities at play just aren't as fleshed out.

I agree but the bottom line is they didn't gives us all that stuff. We can of course fill in these blanks ourselves, but then why am I buying this book? There is plenty of existing material which can be built on if I want to add my own ideas.

The thing about the alchemicals is that they aren't actually re-purposed humans, they were never humans. Their psyche is more akin to Data, who has the memories of everyone from the colony where he was found, than anything else, only they have flesh and bones, just made out of clays and metal.

See that would be true if they, like other exalted, had their memories trimmed between incarnations however they don't. In fact a lot of the early issues between the Alchemical exalted extended from the fact they were acting on their past memories and preconceptions. Particularly in the case of those who remembered past lives as other Celestial Exalted. Each Alchemical might be its own creature distilled from those past lives but they they are in the end all too human it seems to me even if they are more then the sum of their past lives.

Calling Autobot a tin can is like calling Creation a flat earth, it is a gross understatement. Autobot is as much a tin can as Malfeas is. They are both indomitably huge. Once again, the material is underwhelming because it is underpresented. There are eight nations, which sounds small, but each of those eight nations is most likely the size of the US or Europe.

Saying something is big means nothing if their isn't a huge amount of content to go with it. Those cities could be the size of creation itself or as small as a single western island for all the material we have on them it wouldn't make much of a difference. One just will seem vast and empty and the other will seem small and cramped. Creation has enough material what with the compass of X directions. Really, if the want the world of Autocthon to thrive they would need a series called the Compass of Alchemical Directions.

The city thing, can't be helped. It may feel like a Bad End, but it is the physical manifestation of the Alchemical condition. You work for the state, and you eventually become part of the state. That is just one more thing to fight against. It provides great RP fodder. Also, your city can shoot out clones of its past self, so it ain't all bad.

Well it *could* be helped with WW had thought of something cool for the Alchemicals. It is true their is some RP potential but I don't think it is that much compaired to some RP opportunities for other Exalted. It isn't like there is much pressure to become a city except from the Alchemicals who have already transformed and even this is pretty minor. They don't exactly form a Wyld Hunt to chase down Alchecmials who don't feel like going essence 6+.

I would recommend letting your kneejerk reactions subside, and giving it another read. Especially the ST section. ST sections are some of the best chapters in most books, and they are usually overlooked. Honestly, it is one of the first chapters I turn to.
Ed: also, read the Character Creation chapter, those things have more in them than just what your stats are supposed to be. They are meant to serve as introduction the setting and the mindset of the character, if written properly, which the Alchies one is because Holden wrote it.

While sound advice I don't think my opinion is likely to change on a second read having now read through both First and Second edition. When reading about Solars or Infernals I was constantly excited and intrigue and with Alchemicals I, which I had the highest hopes for, I just didn't really get excited through out the whole thing more then once or twice. Maybe it is self fulfilling prophecy but it just didn't seem to stack up to the core material. That said however I don't rule out the possibility of someone running a good Alchemical adventure that could change my mind. Reading about something and seeing it put into practice are after all two different things. Maybe a good story teller could pull it all together and show me what everyone else in this thread sees in the Alchemicals. I think I'll give it a second read after I've gotten through the books on the other Exalted and we'll just see how it stacks up then.


------------------------------------


Cryoseraph it is true Autochthonia is a very different animal and if it was part of creation I'd enjoy that. What I don't enjoy is that fact that is almost totally divorced from the rest of Exalted. It is the only expansion for exalted to do this and yet it is also one with the least material when it probably is one of the one's that need the most.


I'm all for magi-tech and some of the goofiness/awesomeness that comes with that. I'd just rather have it in creation playing nice with all that other Exalted material that has been written.

 

[Persell]

The lore doesn't really support that. It doesn't go so much into in the 2E books but in 1E where it gets more details it says Autochthon only eats po because he didn't have a firm understanding of the rest of the soul when he went to sleep rather then any benevolence on his part. Further in both editions it clear that eating all these souls is depleting the population permanently which is part of the problem. It also makes clear when he returns he sucks in millions of souls extinguishing them from the loom of fate so it doesn't seem like his soul eating ways are likely to change.

There are a limited amount of soul components inside the Great Maker, but in creation there is an artifact thing that makes both new higher and lower souls without limit. So he can just go to that and pig out like the tubby midget primordial he is

 

[LaFreeze]

The lore doesn't really support that. It doesn't go so much into in the 2E books but in 1E where it gets more details it says Autochthon only eats po because he didn't have a firm understanding of the rest of the soul when he went to sleep rather then any benevolence on his part. Further in both editions it clear that eating all these souls is depleting the population permanently which is part of the problem. It also makes clear when he returns he sucks in millions of souls extinguishing them from the loom of fate so it doesn't seem like his soul eating ways are likely to change.

There are a limited amount of soul components inside the Great Maker, but in creation there is an artifact thing that makes both new higher and lower souls without limit. So he can just go to that and pig out like the tubby midget primordial he is

Seems like the great maker should have made one for himself then.

 

[Kyeudo]

Seems like the great maker should have made one for himself then.

It's hooked to the infinite Essence reserve that is the Wyld. Autochthon did make it, but running one inside of Autochthonia would be like running an electric motor with an electric genererator and then using the motor to power the generator. Go try it and see how much power you end up with.

 

[LaFreeze]

Seems like the great maker should have made one for himself then.

It's hooked to the infinite Essence reserve that is the Wyld. Autochthon did make it, but running one inside of Autochthonia would be like running an electric motor with an electric genererator and then using the motor to power the generator. Go try it and see how much power you end up with.

Yes but this is Exalted. If hook a motor and generator together like that not only would it work it, it would produce excess power and turn it into fruit baskets with kittens in them and then the real problem would be the innumerable horde of essence filled kittens dashing about causing untold chaos and threatening to tip the world in void or something. Worst of all you would turn out to be Ebon Dragon or the Mask of Winter and intended for me to set this horrible kitten cataclysm in motion all along.

 

[Holden]

Also, don't let their chapter 1 spook you, someone got a little carried away with that chapter. All the follow up material has drifted away from that ideal, except maybe one of the authors of Return of the Scarlet Empress. But this just demonstrates why people working on different parts of books should talk to one another.

I hope you mean chapter 2 because otherwise this makes me so confused.

 

[magnificentmomo]

Past me did mean chapter 2. Either that or past me had a big problem with mildly augmented and inaccurate yozi fluff.

 

[wordman]

Re: Warning, long response ahead

Yea but compared to the Deathlords or Demon Princes gremlins are pretty lame. Food shortages and droids gone bad don't really compare to the Mask of Winter or Scarlet Empress.

Beg, borrow or steal a copy of the first edition Autochthonians book. Read the chapter called "Engines of Extinction". Ya got your deathlords right here.


The horrible "Quest for the Great" source chapter also sounds like it is more what you are actually asking for. It's more of a "probe into Creation".


Also, since your primary objection seems to be that the Alchemicals don't fit your preconceived notion that they should interact with Creation in a major way, don't buy the Fair Folk book, either.

 

[LaFreeze]

Re: Warning, long response ahead

Yea but compared to the Deathlords or Demon Princes gremlins are pretty lame. Food shortages and droids gone bad don't really compare to the Mask of Winter or Scarlet Empress.

Also, since your primary objection seems to be that the Alchemicals don't fit your preconceived notion that they should interact with Creation in a major way, don't buy the Fair Folk book, either.

Having an opinion or preference is not the same as a preconceived notion. Also you totally missed the point. My problem is that the Alchemicals are so isolated. Most other elements in exalted such as the Infernals or the Fair Folk are easy to slip if if their not already a major part of creation. With Alchemcials you have to bend the standard setting a lot to really add them in.


It would be like if the next book they put out details a whole mirror universe creation with different exalted that ran on materia which was run by mutated cockroaches. It isn't that the idea doesn't have any merit, it just doesn't A.) doesn't seems as cool as the established main creation material since the standard has been set very high there already and B.) doesn't have an easy point of entry without players going "What the heck was that" and requiring a fair bit of explanation when introduced to players.


By contrast players should already know fair folk and they should already feel like a well established part of the setting the books just give you rules to help define them.

 

[wordman]

Re: Warning, long response ahead

My problem is that the Alchemicals are so isolated.

No it isn't. Your problem is that Alchemicals are so isolated and you think they should not be. You have a preference/opinion/preconceived notion/whatever-you-want-to-call-it that Alchemicals should be tightly integrated into Creation. The game's designers, it's fiction and many players (including me) don't have that preference/opinion/preconceived notion/whatever-you-want-to-call it. The only clear connection ever stated about the Alchemicals and Creation is when they try to invade it.


I get that you want that to be otherwise. But if you want to make it that way, the books (except, perhaps, for the one I mentioned before) won't help you. People on this forum probably could, if that is the intent of this thread. If not, then what is the intent of this thread? Whining? What kind of answer do you want from us? "Yeah, man, we feel your pain"?

By contrast players should already know fair folk and they should already feel like a well established part of the setting the books just give you rules to help define them.

And, yet, the Fair Folk book does not actually do this. Sure, it says a lot about Fair Folk, but it says nearly nothing about how (mechanically) Fair Folk interact with Creation. The Alchemicals book is vastly superior in the sense that, if you put a solar and an alchemical in a room, it is totally clear how the powers of one can be used on the other, and the systems basically hold up. Neither of these is really true for Fair Folk.

 

[LaFreeze]

Re: Warning, long response ahead

I get that you want that to be otherwise. But if you want to make it that way, the books (except, perhaps, for the one I mentioned before) won't help you. People on this forum probably could, if that is the intent of this thread. If not, then what is the intent of this thread? Whining? What kind of answer do you want from us? "Yeah, man, we feel your pain"?


.

I'd like to have an enjoyable discussion of Alchemicals and their roll in Exalted, a game I enjoy, with other people who also enjoy the game and discussion to get their view points, opinions, preconceived notions, house rules and see if they have a take on exalted that I missed, etc. etc. without them talking down to me. I am sincerely not sorry if my having an opinion and the audacity to give it voice on an Exalted forum somehow offends you.


I'm still happy to discuss the subject with anyone else who is interested if someone has a different take they would like to share.


While I have the stage here I'd like to say I've softened my stance on the whole city concept somewhat when someone pointed out this is similar to the concept of the Infernals becoming Yozi and given that Alchemicals are sort of cousins to Infernals being primordial Exalted it does make sense thematically which I admit I hadn't though of before. However I just still keep coming back to that scene in the movie Big where Tom Hank's character points out how dull buildings and asks if the robot couldn't turn into something cooler.

 

[wordman]

Re: Warning, long response ahead

I'm still happy to discuss the subject with anyone else who is interested if someone has a different take they would like to share.

What subject? What are you trying to accomplish? What goal are we supposed to infer from your initial post? The only question you ask in it is: "Does anyone else feel this way or am I just not getting what Alchemicals are all about?"


Distilling posts from myself and others, the answers to the first part of the sentence seems to be "not really" and the answer to the second seems to be "maybe". Is that it? Is that really what you are after?


Personally, as the thread progressed, it seemed to me like you were after ways to better use alchemicals to get the play you want out of them. But then you seemed to ignore the handful of suggestions made to do that in favor further clarifying why you don't like what the book does. So, how are we supposed to react to that?


I apologize if I seem to be "talking down to you", but I am legitimately confused as to why you started this thread. At first, it seemed like you were just venting into the darkness, so there wasn't much point in replying. Then it seemed like you might be trying to figure something out. Now it seems like, no, you really were just venting into the darkness, I guess.

 

[Cryoseraph]

So, to throw in a happier tone, The new Compass of Celestial Directions: Autocthonia book should fill in a lot of conceptual gaps, mostly covering the fun that can be had in the 'outlander' area of Autocthonia. It is also likely to give some extra fluff to Alchemicals. I don't think it is likely to fill in what Alchemicals could pull off in Creation, though activities in the Reaches away from the main cities could cover how they work 'in the field' like they would in Creation.


I do think the Alchemicals could easily deserve their own metaplot event, best known to us as the Locust Crusade. While a version of it was given in First Edition, nothing was nearly as fleshed out as it has been now, and I think getting to see each of the 8 Nations takes on how to 'invade Creation' would help the setting a lot. And of course, each form of the Great Breach from Autocthonia to Creation could happen in a different location, leaving our classic view of the Locust Crusade (being in the South) as only one of 8 choices. Getting to see how the Bull of the North reacts to Alchemicals is a lot different than how the Silver Prince reacts or how a broken Realm handles Alchemicals swarming in right out from under the Imperial Mountain, complete with Mountain Folk back-up.


Also, as a side-note, a lot of the style Alchemicals have I think matches with Terrestrials. Being the weakest of the Celestials (said so in their own book!), and the extra effort put into their strength of team-work suggests they follow the sentai-format far more than the proper Celestials. So comparing them to pack or circle dynamics doesn't reflect their organizational style, though I think a fully fleshed out Wyld Hunt Brotherhood or Realm military force would look more accurate. Heck, even their loner type (Adamants) want to be part of the group, they just aren't allowed to. To me, that means you can't appreciate the cog without looking at the whole of the machine it helps power, quite poetic for Alchemicals.

 

[LaFreeze]

Is that really what you are after?

No, what I'm after is fun, an enjoyable discussion because I felt their is a lot of room for discussion on Alchemicals. I'm not really after anything else. You are supposed to react by discussing the subject if you would enjoy doing so and simply passing by the thread if you would not. I suppose if I had any goal it would be to try find why other people enjoy the material 'cause I would really like to enjoy the Alchemicals more then I do. It seem like Alchemicals have a lot of untapped potential. I say it really hurts Alchemicals to be so isolated because other Exalted elements all benefit from the fact that they can have some material added to them even in a book not specifically about them and those snippets all help really flush out and develop them; even Infernals whom are similarly section away in Malfeas in many ways. With Alchemicals being walled off we never get anything on them unless something is very specifically written which seems problematic.

So, to throw in a happier tone, The new Compass of Celestial Directions: Autocthonia book should fill in a lot of conceptual gaps, mostly covering the fun that can be had in the 'outlander' area of Autocthonia. It is also likely to give some extra fluff to Alchemicals. I don't think it is likely to fill in what Alchemicals could pull off in Creation, though activities in the Reaches away from the main cities could cover how they work 'in the field' like they would in Creation.

Yea I think CoCD: Autocthonia should help a lot. I agree it probably won't help with Alchemicals to creation stuff but I'll be surprised if it doesn't really help with stories of creation exalted traveling to Autocthonia. Make it feel less more like a part of Exalted a less a parallel game that just happens to use the same rules set.

I do think the Alchemicals could easily deserve their own metaplot event, best known to us as the Locust Crusade. While a version of it was given in First Edition, nothing was nearly as fleshed out as it has been now, and I think getting to see each of the 8 Nations takes on how to 'invade Creation' would help the setting a lot. And of course, each form of the Great Breach from Autocthonia to Creation could happen in a different location, leaving our classic view of the Locust Crusade (being in the South) as only one of 8 choices. Getting to see how the Bull of the North reacts to Alchemicals is a lot different than how the Silver Prince reacts or how a broken Realm handles Alchemicals swarming in right out from under the Imperial Mountain, complete with Mountain Folk back-up.

Well it were like Return of the Scarlet Empress I would really welcome it. I thought RotSC was filled with enough places, events and ideas that you could take a lot of material and inspiration from it even if you don't want want to run the whole RotSC plot.

Also, as a side-note, a lot of the style Alchemicals have I think matches with Terrestrials. Being the weakest of the Celestials (said so in their own book!), and the extra effort put into their strength of team-work suggests they follow the sentai-format far more than the proper Celestials. So comparing them to pack or circle dynamics doesn't reflect their organizational style, though I think a fully fleshed out Wyld Hunt Brotherhood or Realm military force would look more accurate. Heck, even their loner type (Adamants) want to be part of the group, they just aren't allowed to. To me, that means you can't appreciate the cog without looking at the whole of the machine it helps power, quite poetic for Alchemicals.

Hmmmm, I guess I have a bit of trouble seeing Alchemicals as comparable with Terrestrials because it seems like they are a lot stronger then they seem just kind of specialized. I mean we hear about the defeating Lunar's in single combat without too much trouble which to me puts their warriors at least just below the Solar classes.


I think you are right about them being very group oriented. However I'd suggest the way it reads that the Alchemicals machine really extends to the mortal societies they are a part of. At least the way I read things Alchemicals are really inseparable from their society thematically speaking. Which is why I think the CoCD will help so much.


If they do ever publish a meta plot I really hope they would go into detail about the societies creation side which would say is one thing that would really help with Alchemicals creation side (Assuming they aren't loose rogues like Nova which I think should really be a whole section if not a whole book unto itself).


Going back to wordman as to what I would like concerning Alchemicals in the larger sense? In an ideally I'd really like a the Alchemical equivalent to "The Outcaste" (or the home brewed equivalent) which I felt had a lot of great material for Terrestrials and outlined a lot of different possibilities for Terrestrials from the more tradition stuff with the Scarlet Empire to Forest Witches to Wyld Pirates. It was just filled with a lot of exciting ideas and helped flush out some alternatives to being a dynasty which I really enjoyed reading about. If the CoCD: Autocthonia sells well I hope they would consider doing something like that.

 

[magnificentmomo]

Every Nation in the Auto compass has at least a paragraph talking about how they will interact with Creation.


Also, you may be forgetting that most everyone knows about as much about Alchemicals as they do about every other Exalted. A Solar having to go, "No bro, I'm not a demon, I'm totally a good guy empowered by the Unconquered Sun, and I've come to save the day" takes just as long as, "No bro, I'm not a demon, I am a good guy empowered by the lost Primordial Autochthon, and I've come to save the day."


The follow ups take just as long because History was re-written, and most people don't know about the true First Age. Explaining how things actually went down in the First Age isn't any different than explaining who Auto is. Everybody has hoops to jump through, Alchies just have different hoops. Once the Seal has been broken in a few places, Auto becomes just as separate as Malfeas and Yu Shan.


The playerbase at large seems to downplay the disparity between IC and OOC setting knowledge, as well as the level of comfort with Exalted. All the Exalted, other than Dragon Bloods and Sidereals, are returning to the public at large of Creation in some way or another. Solars from the Jade Prison, Lunars from the Wyld, and Alchemicals from Auto. Introducing a Sidereal is a lot like introducing an Alchemical. "What?! There is an entire type of Exalt in Heaven(a mysterious and secluded place) who keep the world running that nobody knows about?" is just the same as "What!? There is an entire type of Exalt from the lost Primordial Autochton that nobody knows about who are here to meddle with Creation?"


I personally love the thematics and aesthetics of Alchemicals, as well as Autochthonia, which is an awesome and complex place. Cool things happen when they mix with Creation.


I did play an Alchemical in a mixed game, and I did have to switch him out for a Lunar simply because the group had so much going on that it couldn't handle even a small footnote about Auto. Same thing happened to the Infernal who switched out for a Solar. The Infernal brought some baggage that just didn't fit in the overhead compartment. I probably could have just IC explained it as vaguely as possible, or flat out lied, but it didn't fit what the character was about. If I had done things differently he probably could have stayed, but it just wasn't in the cards.

 

[wordman]

I suppose if I had any goal it would be to try find why other people enjoy the material 'cause I would really like to enjoy the Alchemicals more then I do.

OK, so we're supposed to read your opening post as "Why do you guys like alchemicals? Because I'm not seeing it." Got it. That I can work with, as it's actually a question.


I didn't really like alchemicals either, at first. Not because they were isolated, but because they seemed goofy. "OMG! Mesoamerican cyborgs! WTF!" But, I didn't think much about them because, at the time, the only mention of them was the Time of Tumult book. Even when the Autochthonians book came out, I didn't really pay them much mind. But it gradually became clear (to me anyway, others had figured this out long before) that the 1E alchemicals book was flat out the most mechanically well-written of the entire First Edition line. That book, as mentioned before, also contained three long chapters on how to run a game using them: two set in Creation, one as an alchemicals only game, fighting off a Deathlord.


All the while, my 1E campaign was loosely based around a "gather the parts to build the McGuffin" plot. One of the ingredients was "the breath of a Primordial". When setting that as an ingredient, I had no idea what that was supposed to mean or what the players would do to get it. Once I seriously read Autochthonians, it was pretty clear that one possibly was some of the atmosphere from around the elemental pole of Smoke, deep inside Autochthon. So, I started seriously considering sending my group into Autochthonia and started making some NPCs. And that's when I started to like alchemicals.


Alchemicals are highly specialized at any given moment, but just swap out parts and they become specialized at something completely different. They're like omnimechs, which I think is cool (even though omnimechs actually aren't cool, so, odd). In a weird way, they are the ultimate generalists. For example, I had to stat up Excessively Righteous Blossom, and realized it was possible to give him four totally different modes of operation. (The only real trouble alchemcials had in 1E was that it was hard to give them persistant defenses. These were a huge deal in 1E, but since 2E introduced DV, essentially everyone now has persistant defenses, so this is no longer a problem.)


One thing I like a lot about alchemicals is that there is at least an attempt at mechanics pitting their "humanity" against their "machine-ness". That is, they walk the line between mortal and something else, and the struggle between the two matters. This could have been present in all the exalted (well, the celestials anyway) where there is something of a duel between their human side and their godhood, but really isn't. It sure as hell isn't the point of the Limit system. Not that the Clarity system is hugely better, but it is better. The ironic part is that alchemicals aren't even human to begin with.


The key to telling alchemical stories in Creation is undoubtedly the Eye of Autochthon. The "Quest for the Great Source" chapter in the 1E book, as mentioned, shows one way to use it. You can likely come up with something better. But the Eye is basically Autochthon's only presence in Creation. Why the Maker left it there is unclear, but you can bet he always has a plan. Like the movie version of the One Ring, I think the Eye works best if you treat it like a character, with desires of its own, but perhaps not a full intellect. It's a good bet that the alchemicals have a better idea of the Eye's purpose than people in Creation do; it would be hard for them to know less. Chances are they also know a lot more about Autochthon's great works as well, such as the Sword of Creation or the Last Supplicant.


I can think of two ways to get the "Outcaste" thing you mentioned at the end of your last post:


1) Living in crowded spaces, the Autochthonians would be hyper paranoid about disease. (The "Engines of Extinction" chapter of the 1E book talks a bit about this.) So, once they break the seal back into Creation, the idea that the first thing they would do is send out invasion troops is sort of ludicrous. Instead, they would likely send a bunch of alchemical infiltrators from pole to pole (to pole to pole) for a couple of years to gather intelligence. From hiding their nature to any eventual massive betrayal, this opens a lot of role-playing opportunities for these agents, as well as a great deal of autonomy.


2) It's possible that a cadre of alchemicals was left behind in order to guard the Eye. Unfortunately for them, the Eye has plans of its own. It eventually corrupts one of the alchemicals into incapacitating the other alchemicals, stealing the Eye and bringing it out of the protected area. Once free and where it wants to be, the Eye destroys the alchemical, just in time to be found by Bagrash Köl. Centuries pass. Then, a fail-safe system finally kicks in, revitalizing the original alchemicals. They awake to find the Eye gone. They split up to comb Creation for the Eye.

 

[magnificentmomo]

1) Living in crowded spaces, the Autochthonians would be hyper paranoid about disease. (The "Engines of Extinction" chapter of the 1E book talks a bit about this.) So, once they break the seal back into Creation, the idea that the first thing they would do is send out invasion troops is sort of ludicrous. Instead, they would likely send a bunch of alchemical infiltrators from pole to pole (to pole to pole) for a couple of years to gather intelligence. From hiding their nature to any eventual massive betrayal, this opens a lot of role-playing opportunities for these agents, as well as a great deal of autonomy.

My character was basically this, with a dash of "going AWOL." Trouble came when I was trying to plan coming out of the big primordial closet. I could have easily worked around it though by letting it slip bit by bit, but these were Solars with Judge's Ear Technique, so it would have been difficult.

 

[wordman]

How did you handle swapping charms?