[A Shattered Visage] Takalam bebot’ men fadlek - OOC

[Brekkir]

Fuck, Masters of Jade is out. And for now, it looks damn good. Guess it'll suck my attention some more.

 

[Brekkir]

Well, life is a bitch.


Aside from that, Masters of Jade rocks. Too short for my tastes, though.

 

[Axelgear]

And it included a monumentally pointless addition in the form of the Liminals. If they're inspired by Promethean, they're going to be redundant (because you can just do that with any number of crafted lifeforms or necrotech or Fae). If they're inspired by Geist, they're going to be redundant (because Abyssals). If they're a bit of both, they're going to be schizophrenic.

 

[Brekkir]

*groan* It's too soon to claim whether they'll be pointless. Heck, originally I thought the Green Sun Princes were superfluous. Then I read their splatbook. And they're my second-favorite splat now.


I just hope they'll keep them Terrestrial-tier.

 

[Tableface]

*groan* It's too soon to claim whether they'll be pointless. Heck, originally I thought the Green Sun Princes were superfluous. Then I read their splatbook. And they're my second-favorite splat now.
I just hope they'll keep them Terrestrial-tier.

Their splatbook was a horrendous piece of garbage which advocated demons running trains on their potentials, child rape, and a slide back towards White Wolf's "edgey" attempts at concept. The ideas that they wanted to get across barely emerge in the actual print, and even directly stated world-of-god from the freelancers aren't all that thrilling or even all that unique to the setting or the Infernals themselves.


What is awesome about Infernals is their Charm mechanics and premises. Really, those are... those are just fantastic. Aside from the giant gaping hole of Mass Combat ones, anyway.


Edit: and to a degree they are superfluous. Their existence is not necessary to the setting, or introduces something new to it. They're this formless mash-up between Abyssals (you are ostensibly a servant to greater power) and Solars (you are supergod and can do whatever you damn well please) and are denied a focus of theme because of it.

 

[Brekkir]

Their splatbook was a horrendous piece of garbage which advocated demons running trains on their potentials, child rape,

Aaand just like that, you lost all credibility. Really, the depiction of Lillun's plight is tantamount to advocating child rape? Are you for real? Or are you speaking about something else I'd missed?
EDIT:

and to a degree they are superfluous. Their existence is not necessary to the setting, or introduces something new to it. They're this formless mash-up between Abyssals (you are ostensibly a servant to greater power) and Solars (you are supergod and can do whatever you damn well please) and are denied a focus of theme because of it.

When you get down to it, so are Lunars,Sidereals and especially Alchemicals. That doesn't make Green Sun Princes any less awesome.

 

[Tableface]

Their splatbook was a horrendous piece of garbage which advocated demons running trains on their potentials, child rape,

Aaand just like that, you lost all credibility. Really, the depiction of Lillun's plight is tantamount to advocating child rape? Are you for real? Or are you speaking about something else I'd missed?

Considering that one of the actual examples given of dares at "The Thing" was doing just that with her...

 

[Brekkir]

Their splatbook was a horrendous piece of garbage which advocated demons running trains on their potentials, child rape,

Aaand just like that, you lost all credibility. Really, the depiction of Lillun's plight is tantamount to advocating child rape? Are you for real? Or are you speaking about something else I'd missed?

Considering that one of the actual examples given of dares at "The Thing" was doing just that with her...

Yeah, Chapter two is distasteful and out of synch with the rest of the book. So what? How is child rape worse than homicide, an activity which almost all Chosen regularly engage in? (Further, Lillun is so far gone than almost any outrage would be a drop of water in the ocean of her suffering).
Not saying that child rape is ok, it's an absolutely heinous crime with disastrous consequences on the victim's psyche and body. Just so that we are clear on this. But trauma can be overcome (even without recourse to Hastenign Night's End or Mind Soothing Anodyne). Whether in RL or in Exalted, you can't resurrect someone.

 

[Axelgear]

Aaand just like that, you lost all credibility. Really, the depiction of Lillun's plight is tantamount to advocating child rape? Are you for real? Or are you speaking about something else I'd missed?

Lillun got tongue-raped by the Ebon Dragon, she got 50 demonically charged god-sparks jammed into her uterus, and, if there was any confusion of intent, they do not deny in any way just how a demon has to get one out. As has been pointed out, they actually make a joke that sexing up Lillun is one of the gross dares at The Thing.


It really doesn't help that "Things You Want But Cannot Have" is a theme for Infernals. I know the writers probably don't have Jungle Gym Fever, but... Yeah... Unfortunate implications.

When you get down to it, so are Lunars,Sidereals and especially Alchemicals. That doesn't make Green Sun Princes any less awesome.

Green Sun Princes have an awesome theme: The Alien. They are what demons are in Exalted; not divine punishment for sins but things that are, by dint of mere existence, wrong, inhuman, and antithetical to human existence. They are the Other.


This was a concept that was explored dick-all in the original splatbook. The Infernals there are presented as essentially copying the charms of the Yozis. This made them really rather lackluster. It took Broken Winged Crane to actually give that aspect even a hint of worth. The closest you get in the core is "Redefining Virtue", which is probably the most hamfisted part of the whole book.


As for Lunars, their schtick is schizophrenic but it could best be described as hardcore animal instinct. The Sidereals are Men In Black who know better than everyone how they should live their lives. The Alchemicals are ROBOTS OF THE PEOPLE!

 

[Brekkir]

Lillun got tongue-raped by the Ebon Dragon, she got 50 demonically charged god-sparks jammed into her uterus, and, if there was any confusion of intent, they do not deny in any way just how a demon has to get one out. As has been pointed out, they actually make a joke that sexing up Lillun is one of the gross dares at The Thing.

I'm not denying that what's happened to Lillun is mind-numbingly horrible. But at that point it's no longer child rape, it's inhuman torture practiced by alien creatures with inhuman psyches.

This was a concept that was explored dick-all in the original splatbook. The Infernals there are presented as essentially copying the charms of the Yozis. This made them really rather lackluster. It took Broken Winged Crane to actually give that aspect even a hint of worth. The closest you get in the core is "Redefining Virtue", which is probably the most hamfisted part of the whole book.

True, the Infernals got a huge boost in interest with BWC. But we're finally there. I'm holding the same hope for Liminals, whatever they may be. It's not like you're obligated to have every splat in every campaign (if it's not the case, by all means mention it, I'm shoving a Defiler character in this campaign ASAP :twisted: ), and I'm of the opinion that moar options = good. Though I'd rather have 2.5, Siderrata and Monkerrata before even going into that.

 

[Tableface]

Brekkir, I'm not really sure where to go from here. You've just had a counter to your own statement (that Infernals doesn't advocate child rape) with an example from the book (child rape is something your Infernal might do) and your reply to it is that at least it isn't murder.


How exactly is a sane person supposed to reply?


Chapter two is terrible, but it is not out of sync with the first chapter, and later ones--while lacking the same egregious examples of Shocking-As-Clever--don't at all run counter to the things presented there. More importantly, your original contention was (presumably) that the Infernals book was good enough to make them your favorite of all possible types.


Edit: I mean I go could go into how Infernals suffer a lot of the same problems that Lunars do, either a lack of purpose or an overabundance of them; or how they co-opted two of the stronger elements from Solars and Abyssals--that they could be anyone of any background with total freedom of action, and that they made a dubious choice of servitude to greater powers, respectively--only to end up with something substantially weaker than either, but there's really not much else to say past that point.


Edit edit: And Alchemicals are superfluous to the setting. Their default world is a completely different one.


Editx3: restoring bits Brekkir deleted

 

[Axelgear]

I'm not denying that what's happened to Lillun is mind-numbingly horrible. But at that point it's no longer child rape, it's inhuman torture practiced by alien creatures with inhuman psyches.

No. Just... No.


It doesn't matter if the Ebon Dragon or some random demon raping Lillun has some alien cause. A schizophrenic might rape someone because he feels that they are an evil fairy and doing so will free all the souls they've devoured, but it doesn't change the fact that the victim is going to experience it as rape. It might be more brutal and confusing than "usual", if there is such a thing as a usual sexual assault, but it doesn't change how the victim is except possibly making it worse.


Plus, y'know, it's not binary. She can experience both rape trauma and the terrible feeling of growing new orifices at random as a giant, bloated, semi-aware prison for tainted spirits.

True, the Infernals got a huge boost in interest with BWC. But we're finally there. I'm holding the same hope for Liminals, whatever they may be. It's not like you're obligated to have every splat in every campaign (if it's not the case, by all means mention it, I'm shoving a Defiler character in this campaign ASAP :twisted: ), and I'm of the opinion that moar options = good. Though I'd rather have 2.5, Siderrata and Monkerrata before even going into that.

You're holding out hope for the Liminals that they release a terrible splat-book that's thematically devoid of anything worthwhile, and then add something that makes them actually interesting that you have to pay extra for about a year down the line?

 

[Brekkir]

Oh fuck. Sorry for you post, Tableface, I totally messed up with the 'quote' and 'edit' functions. I apologize flatly. Is there any way to reverse it?


EDIT:

Brekkir, I'm not really sure where to go from here. You've just had a counter to your own statement (that Infernals doesn't advocate child rape) with an example from the book (child rape is something your Infernal might do) and your reply to it is that at least it isn't murder.

Huh... soooo? My Solars, Lunars, Alchemicals, Dragon Blooded, Sidereals, Abyssals, Dragon Kings, Mountain Folks, Rakshas, beastmen, mortals enlightened or not, all can rape children by the cartful - it's not like they're CRPG character who can't do a thing to children, like in Skyrim. I think I even remember a Dynast from 1e having a child rape fetish and acting on it, but I don't see you complaining that Dragon-Blooded books promote child rape (and let's not mention Sesus Lahor, a serial rapist who was just sent away from the Realm on vacation because his lack of discretion was embarassing (or was it because his victim was a patrician's daughter or Exalted after the act? I can't remember)). It's distasteful, sure. But my Infernal also has free will and is entitled to say 'that's fucked up'. How someone can take this element and use it to brand the whole splat is just beyond me. I just can't wrap my head around the argument that just because some Infernals put forward some heinous dares in an assembly supervised by inhuman demons that do not understand how it will harm Lillun (if anything can be said to harm her anymore after what she's been through), every Infernal is a potential child rapist. That's just alien to me.

How exactly is a sane person supposed to reply?

By recognizing that while child rape is horrible, murder and genocide are worse. And with many Charms dedicated to killing stuff on a wide scale, any splatbook can be said to promote murder and genocide. Go ahead and complain about that.

Chapter two is terrible, but it is not out of sync with the first chapter, and later ones--while lacking the same egregious examples of Shocking-As-Clever--don't at all run counter to the things presented there. More importantly, your original contention was (presumably) that the Infernals book was good enough to make them your favorite of all possible types.

I meant Chapter One (Chapter Two got mixed in my head with the recurring complaint about human akumas), and I concede that it took BWC to really make Infernals my near-favorites. But that's actually not the point. To sum it up: "I originally thought the Infernals would be superfluous and boring, in the end they managed to make it awesome". So same goes for the Liminals. I'll wait for more details before whining.

Edit: I mean I go could go into how Infernals suffer a lot of the same problems that Lunars do, either a lack of purpose or an overabundance of them; or how they co-opted two of the stronger elements from Solars and Abyssals--that they could be anyone of any background with total freedom of action, and that they made a dubious choice of servitude to greater powers, respectively--only to end up with something substantially weaker than either, but there's really not much else to say past that point.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then if you think that the Abyssals' thematic is "you're a servant to a higher power".

 

[Axelgear]

Yes. Click Edit and take out the parts you put in.

 

[Brekkir]

No. Just... No.
It doesn't matter if the Ebon Dragon or some random demon raping Lillun has some alien cause. A schizophrenic might rape someone because he feels that they are an evil fairy and doing so will free all the souls they've devoured, but it doesn't change the fact that the victim is going to experience it as rape. It might be more brutal and confusing than "usual", if there is such a thing as a usual sexual assault, but it doesn't change how the victim is except possibly making it worse.


Plus, y'know, it's not binary. She can experience both rape trauma and the terrible feeling of growing new orifices at random as a giant, bloated, semi-aware prison for tainted spirits.

I'm dropping the point since it's tangential to the argument.

You're holding out hope for the Liminals that they release a terrible splat-book that's thematically devoid of anything worthwhile, and then add something that makes them actually interesting that you have to pay extra for about a year down the line?

That's a strawman. I'm merely saying that we should wait to see the results before condemning the splat. And while I do find the need for errata and supplemental material to be grating, if the end result is good, then I'm fine with that. (Plus regarding BWC, wasn't it mostly a wordcount problem?) Though I'm hoping that with a more consistent team that has good communication, the line will shape up better.

 

[Tableface]

Huh... soooo? My Solars, Lunars, Alchemicals, Dragon Blooded, Sidereals, Abyssals, Dragon Kings, Mountain Folks, Rakshas, beastmen, mortals enlightened or not, all can rape children by the cartful - it's not like they're CRPG character who can't do a thing to children, like in Skyrim. I think I even remember a Dynast from 1e having a child rape fetish and acting on it, but I don't see you complaining that Dragon-Blooded books promote child rape (and let's not mention Sesus Lahor, a serial rapist who was just sent away from the Realm on vacation because his lack of discretion was embarassing (or was it because his victim was a patrician's daughter or Exalted after the act? I can't remember)). It's distasteful, sure. But my Infernal also has free will and is entitled to say 'that's fucked up'. How someone can take this element and use it to brand the whole splat is just beyond me. I just can't wrap my head around the argument that just because some Infernals put forward some heinous dares in an assembly supervised by inhuman demons that do not understand how it will harm Lillun (if anything can be said to harm her anymore after what she's been through), every Infernal is a potential child rapist. That's just alien to me.

The difference in all the examples you provided is that none of the other splats readily present child rape as an option or as a common and expected thing of the type of demigod you are. The closest you get is an example story scenario at the back of the Abyssals book where it talks about the possibility of them banding together some marauding Icewalkers in hopes of de-virginizing the North by pillaging to prevent some messiah from being born. Which, putting aside the hilarity of that, isn't great either, but it was being presented as a potential extreme of storytelling rather than an element of what you are and who you associate with.


Edit: Maybe it wasn't Abyssals. I'm not finding it. It's in another, maybe Lunars.

By recognizing that while child rape is horrible, murder and genocide are worse. And with many Charms dedicated to killing stuff on a wide scale, any splatbook can be said to promote murder and genocide. Go ahead and complain about that.

That's a subjective viewpoint, and one neither of us are likely qualified to judge.

I meant Chapter One (Chapter Two got mixed in my head with the recurring complaint about human akumas), and I concede that it took BWC to really make Infernals my near-favorites. But that's actually not the point. To sum it up: "I originally thought the Infernals would be superfluous and boring, in the end they managed to make it awesome". So same goes for the Liminals. I'll wait for more details before whining.

That's a fair enough stance, but that is not what you said, and then you tried to defend that statement on a platform of child rape not being so terrible. Not only is that a poor angle to try and promote something through, it's also incredibly disturbing.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then if you think that the Abyssals' thematic is "you're a servant to a higher power".

My wording was that they "made a dubious choice of servitude," agreeing to a Deathlord's conditions at the cusp of death for a variety of different reasons. By default, yes, they did. Whether they've stuck at it is another matter, and the difficulty of rebellion—either to supplant their makers or to achieve redemption—is part of what defines Abyssals and makes them interesting.

 

[Brekkir]

The difference in all the examples you provided is that none of the other splats readily present child rape as an option or as a common and expected thing of the type of demigod you are. The closest you get is an example story scenario at the back of the Abyssals book where it talks about the possibility of them banding together some marauding Icewalkers in hopes of de-virginizing the North by pillaging to prevent some messiah from being born. Which, putting aside the hilarity of that, isn't great either, but it was being presented as a potential extreme of storytelling rather than an element of what you are and who you associate with.

Tasteless, yes. But talking about association - hey, do you know this political entity called the Realm, which has a house called... Cynis, was it? You know, among their specialties is the trade of slaves, and the operating of brothels staffed by said slaves (I'm not convinced that none of those slaves are under 18, if you catch my meaning).
The Infernals book might have been more 'in your face' about those elements (as I said, distasteful), but rest assured they haven't waited for it in order to exist in Creation (and attenant realms of existence).

That's a subjective viewpoint, and one neither of us are likely qualified to judge.

I'm sorry, that's just false. While I agree that child rape (or any harm that comes to children, for that matter) can have a more visceral emotional impact than other atrocities, it doesn't take a genius of utilitarian ethics to recognize that death deprives a human being of everything and prevents them for experiencing anything else (letting aside the whole Underworld shtick). A traumatic experience can potentially be overcome. Death absolutely cannot be reversed.

That's a fair enough stance, but that is not what you said, and then you tried to defend that statement on a platform of child rape not being so terrible

Stop right here. That's misleading, if not outright malicious/slander. I have said that child rape is an atrocity, but that murder is worse because its finality removes any possibility of improvement (a corpse can't get over trauma and experience happiness again). That's what my position is, and I ask that you retract this statement.
(as far as Lillun is concerned, it's merely a testament to the cumulated atrocity of what she's been through that rape can't really worsen her situation, which is already grotesquely horrible. It doesn't mean it's ok, it means that she's beyond being reached by it).

My wording was that they "made a dubious choice of servitude," agreeing to a Deathlord's conditions at the cusp of death for a variety of different reasons. By default, yes, they did. Whether they've stuck at it is another matter, and the difficulty of rebellion—either to supplant their makers or to achieve redemption—is part of what defines Abyssals and makes them interesting.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree some more, because quite frankly I find Abyssals mostly uninteresting and superfluous. If there was one type of Exalt to purge to let the Liminals in, I'd ditch them without a second thought and gamble on Liminals sparking my interest more.

 

[Tableface]

Tasteless, yes. But talking about association - hey, do you know this political entity called the Realm, which has a house called... Cynis, was it? You know, among their specialties is the trade of slaves, and the operating of brothels staffed by said slaves (I'm not convinced that none of those slaves are under 18, if you catch my meaning).
The Infernals book might have been more 'in your face' about those elements (as I said, distasteful), but rest assured they haven't waited for it in order to exist in Creation (and attenant realms of existence).

These suppositions about what is and isn't happening in the fictional world of Creation at large say more about you than it does about authorial intent. And I don't think it takes much to realize there is a difference between it being regularly pointed out that House Cynis engages in debauchery (the specific nature of this debauchery often left to the imagination) and it being written that your peers and maybe you make a game out of raping a little tortured girl.

I'm sorry, that's just false. While I agree that child rape (or any harm that comes to children, for that matter) can have a more visceral emotional impact than other atrocities, it doesn't take a genius of utilitarian ethics to recognize that death deprives a human being of everything and prevents them for experiencing anything else (letting aside the whole Underworld shtick). A traumatic experience can potentially be overcome. Death absolutely cannot be reversed.

Not everyone operates by utilitarian ethics, nor should they be expected or assumed to, and I know at least one who would argue it's a terrible form of ethical philosophy simply because it tries to discount and simplify the moral complexities of the human condition. Your stance is also alarmingly uninformed; plenty of people would argue that there are certainly worse fates than death.

Stop right here. That's misleading, if not outright malicious/slander. I have said that child rape is an atrocity, but that murder is worse because its finality removes any possibility of improvement (a corpse can't get over trauma and experience happiness again). That's what my position is, and I ask that you retract this statement.
(as far as Lillun is concerned, it's merely a testament to the cumulated atrocity of what she's been through that rape can't really worsen her situation, which is already grotesquely horrible. It doesn't mean it's ok, it means that she's beyond being reached by it).

I'm sorry, but that is exactly what you did. You attempted to discredit my opinions with regards to the Infernal splat by stating that at no point does something comparable to child rape happen, then immediately backpedaled and began writing these ridiculous posts about utilitarian ethics and how murder is infinitely worse so we shouldn't compare once it was pointed out that it actually occurred in the book you were talking about. Then you began bringing in your own baggage vis a vis Creation's undetailed darksides.


You tried to downplay the atrocity you said wasn't there by bringing up that people kill other people in the game. This happened.


Edit: Hell, and when Axel challenged your contention that rape wasn't rape if it was done by a being of sufficiently "alien" person, you immediately stopped discussing it and flew headlong into declaring it no longer relevant.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree some more, because quite frankly I find Abyssals mostly uninteresting and superfluous. If there was one type of Exalt to purge to let the Liminals in, I'd ditch them without a second thought and gamble on Liminals sparking my interest more.

First you disagree with my interpretation of the splat without actually stating a position (though slightly implying one), then once I've detailed some tiny aspect that I thinks give them character you decide that opinions on them don't matter. Both times without stating why or expanding on your premise.


Edit: And you know what? While we're at it, this has been stuck in my craw:

You're holding out hope for the Liminals that they release a terrible splat-book that's thematically devoid of anything worthwhile, and then add something that makes them actually interesting that you have to pay extra for about a year down the line?

That's a strawman.

That is not what a strawman is. That is what is called a joke. A deprecating one, but still humor.

 

[Brekkir]

These suppositions about what is and isn't happening in the fictional world of Creation at large say more about you than it does about authorial intent. And I don't think it takes much to realize there is a difference between it being regularly pointed out that House Cynis engages in debauchery (the specific nature of this debauchery often left to the imagination) and it being written that your peers and maybe you make a game out of raping a little tortured girl.

What says a lot about you is that you handwave institutionalized sex slavery on the scale of an isle-continent as irrelevant next to the graphic depiction of Lillun's plight. Not to mention the pretty explicit examples of Dragon Blooded getting away with rape (as long as the victim is mortal). I suppose that makes Dragon Blooded horrible and unplayable, given that your Dynast might be in a position to abuse his power or fuck sex slaves :roll: .
Yup, chapter one is fucked up and lolzevil. But I maintain that it's only the (poorly done) stylistic choice of emphasizing demonic alienness and inhumanity that makes it appear any worse that what is going on in Creation and beyond. Like sticking somebody in an Abyssal's soulsteel codpiece for untold aeons of suffering, or stalking someone to drink blood from their ripped out heart.


And put this in its correct context: this is supposed to be a insufferable activity used as punishment/deterrent in interpersonal conflicts. That's extremely fucked up, but not the "ho ho ho, let's rape Lillun for fun!" stuff you make it to be (normally I wouldn't even call you on that, but going by how you strawmanned my argument about murder being more horrible than rape I felt the need to correct you).

Not everyone operates by utilitarian ethics, nor should they be expected or assumed to, and I know at least one who would argue it's a terrible form of ethical philosophy simply because it tries to discount and simplify the moral complexities of the human condition.

Please tell me, what is your ethical system that would consider mass murder less horrible than rape. I mean, WTF?

Your stance is also alarmingly uninformed; plenty of people would argue that there are certainly worse fates than death.

Sure there are. Rape isn't one of them. Unless you want to hand a gun to rape victims for them to off themselves?

I'm sorry, but that is exactly what you did.

No, and I maintain my demand that you retract your statement.

You attempted to discredit my opinions with regards to the Infernal splat by stating that at no point does something comparable to child rape happen

Hold on - that's not what I was saying. I remembered Lillun, mind you, but I was shocked by your statement that the book advocated child rape (as in, encourage it). I had forgotten the particular example of the Althing dares, but it doesn't change the fact, as horrible as it sounds, this shit is tame compared to what occurs in Creation, and what all stripes of Exalted can do and even have powers to aid them in (destroy free will, kill people in spades).
Heck, going by your reasoning the Lunar book advocates stalking, murder and cannibalism. Which is disturbing on the same scale as the shit you're calling Infernals on.

then immediately backpedaled and began writing these ridiculous posts about utilitarian ethics and how murder is infinitely worse so we shouldn't compare once it was pointed out that it actually occurred in the book you were talking about. Then you began bringing in your own baggage vis a vis Creation's undetailed darksides.

That's how you answer to 'using your reasoning, every splatbook advocates murder on a wide scale'? Your darling Abyssals are walking death spreaders that can kill unborn fetuses in a wide area if they give a living being a smoochie. Their books advocates omnicide and torture. Go ahead and diss them some too.

You tried to downplay the atrocity you said wasn't there by bringing up that people kill other people in the game. This happened.

Yes, and I'm still surprised you singled out Lillun's plight when Exalted is shock full of disturbing shit. Granted, Lillun is up there and an unnecessary fluff element of the Infernals I woulnd't mind getting out, but quite frankly, stalking someone, killing them and drinking blood from their heart? Really? Institutionalized sex slavery and a social framework that makes it trivial to rape victims who have absolutely no legal or illegal recourse? Who's doing the downplaying? Not me.
Anyway I'm sick and tired of this. I don't need this debate sucking up my energy - I'm tired and perhaps a bit incoherent at times, but at least I can recognize the hypocrisy in turning Infernals down for one disgusting piece of fluff while praising Abyssals whose daily bread is murder and torture.


And I demand, again, that you retract your statement.

 

[Tableface]

Implicit things (ie things you are meant to expand upon or fill in yourself) and explicit things (they do X) are not the same. I've tried stating as such in longer words, but you don't seem to be getting it.


And this?

Not everyone operates by utilitarian ethics, nor should they be expected or assumed to, and I know at least one who would argue it's a terrible form of ethical philosophy simply because it tries to discount and simplify the moral complexities of the human condition.

Please tell me, what is your ethical system that would consider mass murder less horrible than rape. I mean, WTF?

This is a strawman argument. Study it.
I see no reason why I should redact what is, at its most literal, a true statement when you haven't had the integrity to admit that you were wrong. Especially with the horrible mental gymnastics you've been doing to justify it.

 

[Brekkir]

Implicit things (ie things you are meant to expand upon or fill in yourself) and explicit things (they do X) are not the same. I've tried stating as such in longer words, but you don't seem to be getting it.

Err nope. Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Genocide and torture are extensively discusseed in MoEP:A, stalking and cannibalism in MoEP:L, sexual slavery is outright stated in the Cynis entry in MoEPB. I couldn't find the examples of rapist DBs in 2nd Edition, but hey, it's a logical extension of the social superiority of DBs, and explicit doesn't make it 'more wrong', it makes it more distasteful to the reader. To say otherwise is apologist bullshit.

This is a strawman argument. Study it.

So... what's your point? If you agree to the conclusion that mass murder is worse than rape, as horrible as it already is, then your statements were pointless and only served to confuse this mess even more. If you don't, my previous question still stands.
EDIT: nope, actually, ignore the last part, I'm dropping the argument, I actually don't give a fig about this. Let's get back to gaming.

 

[Axelgear]

Just so you all know, I'm still here. I will advance the plot once someone actually does something. Talking about doing something doesn't count.


And, for the record, the botch means you see nothing... For now. I'll throw in something fun when dramatically appropriate.