[A Shattered Visage] Takalam bebot’ men fadlek - OOC

[Midboss]

Same score either way.

 

[Axelgear]

I thought as much, though forgot your fans added a bonus. Keep it as is.


Also, Xarvh, you're holding up the action a bit here. I'm going to work today. If you've not posted by the time I return, I'll be forced to move the action ahead to prevent stalling.

 

[xarvh]

I need to know how the guards react to post further.


Well, for game's sake, I'll assume nothing happens and post again.

 

[Tableface]

You might want Ruin to react to the fact that two dudes in his group are threatening him to stop.


Edit: I mean you're holding up the game for the reactions of extras when there's a much more interesting and much more valid thread to address here.


Edit deux: The very way that the guards have not attacked is about all the answer you really need on their relevance to the events at hand. They are non-entities. And even if they did you would smoke them by virtue of them being extras, making this stalling a waste of time.

 

[Axelgear]

I need to know how the guards react to post further.
Well, for game's sake, I'll assume nothing happens and post again.

I covered that in the previous post, with the guards fleeing or keeping a respectable distance. Anything further would just be repeating myself. For all intents and purposes, they are not interacting with you. Any you even look at funny will run screaming because you are a burning avatar of doom.


Still, I'll toss in the details of them running away some more now. Please just respond to your fellow players.


This goes to you and to others as well, for the record: If you notice me on, and especially if I put up a post, and there's something you want addressed that I did not address, don't hesitate to mention it. I'll at least answer why I haven't mentioned it. It'll help keep the game from stagnating.

 

[xarvh]

You might want Ruin to react to the fact that two dudes in his group are threatening him to stop.

At least one of those two guys so far has acted as puny extra, and deserve the same consideration.


Excuse me while I am busy trying to do something heroic.


Yes, showing the anima is something extreme to save people, but Ruin is not a social character so he rolls with what he has.


It would have been so much nicer and efficient if we worked as a team and certain social characters had used their skills to the benefit of the situation rather than doing ludicrous threats.


So far Ruin has been called idiot and whatever, but he's the only one that actually accomplished something, that is, saving slaves.


The mercenary guards are there to protect the interests of some rich mine owner, they are not a police force entrusted with the safety of the citizens.


Besides, should the slaves be captured rather than killed outright, they would be executed in the most showy and horrible way, to teach a lesson to other slave not even to consider to run away.


Regarding the citizens, they endorse the system and benefit from the slave toil, and would likely be in first line to enjoy the executions above.


So while Ruin wants to spare lives, Slaves com first, then the citizens, then the guards.


This is the way Ruin sees things.


7 so far saw this as a distraction from her plan, it's very IC.


Praan saw things as an opportunity to whine about his teammates.


He did nothing else so far.


His grand entrance in the game is to threaten a teammate.


Man, you do know how to play a hero.

 

[Axelgear]

Xarvh, I just want to point something out here: While your argument does hold at least some water and is fine for Ruin, you have to realize others will disagree. The slaves are well aware of the potential reprisals, and that is why they are not picky in their targets. One attacked 7 just because she overheard her say she sold the Despot a ring. Men, women, and children are being slaughtered just because they're there.


Secondly, the logic of "They benefit from a system that endorses this" is the exact same logic that al Qaeda used for justifying its attacks on the United States. It's the logic most people use when it comes to violence that inadvertently or deliberately harms non-combatants. These people are indirectly benefiting from a system that uses oppression and, therefore, it is perfectly okay to kill them.


Can you not see how others might react badly to that?


I'm not saying you're right or wrong, or that anyone's right or wrong. Ruin's stand is a potentially justifiable one to take, if you feel the good outweighs the bad, but please take into account that others will disagree with you. Hell, even if you don't feel it's justifiable and just want to punch some rich people, that's fine by me. Please, though, take into account that this is Exalted and that hero does not have one meaning, and that this is a game and, hence, ultimately a team sport.


Don't mock, tease, or insult other players. I don't want this devolving into bickering. That goes for everyone.

 

[Tableface]

Xarvh, I think you have missed the entire point of what is going on here.


You talk about social characters doing something? Social powers and abilities don't really work on an immediate scale, so that's right out, and Ruin didn't give anyone a chance to do anything before he hauled off and began indiscriminately murdering the buffer between Joe Citizen and a bunch of armed slaves out of directionless vengeance.


And just so you finally get the point: nobody cares about Ruin flaring his anima. Well, that's not true, but it is not the focus of this incredibly dangerous disagreement.


I'm not going to refute a lot of your assessment of Gem's political situation, because a lot of it is close to accurate and you're starting to make the mistake of dragging IC things into OOC, which usually isn't good. But I will give you a rundown of just what everyone saw and sees right now: at the first sight of bloody, civil unrest, Ruin threw himself into a massacre and began selecting targets at random without appraising the situation, conferring with his teammates, or even really having a plan. And then he/you expect everyone to just... go along with this act of spontaneous violence? The game does not revolve around Ruin, and morally complex issues cannot be rendered down by one character by what amounts to a coin toss. Because, you see, supporting a riot that claims civilian victims by killing individuals who are by and large paid to protect them doesn't sit well with a dude with Compassion 3 (speaking of which, doesn't Ruin have Compassion 4?) or necessarily a woman whose man focus is on profit margins (and who is also being attacked by those same rioters).


If you do dangerous, polarizing, and controversial things without consideration of the consequences, or at least making sure your Circle has your back, you can be sure it will come around and bite you. And supporting--not steering, not mitigating, but supporting--a massacre that is claiming innocent lives, even going so far as to help it happen? Even treating it as a game? That is one of those things.


This is a legitimate grievance between Ruin and his party. We would all appreciate it if you would do us all the favor of dealing with it in-game, instead of trying to brush it off through posts in a different thread. We would like to move on with the plot.


And I don't appreciate being insulted, thank you.

 

[xarvh]

Secondly, the logic of "They benefit from a system that endorses this" is the exact same logic that al Qaeda used for justifying its attacks on the United States. It's the logic most people use when it comes to violence that inadvertently or deliberately harms non-combatants. These people are indirectly benefiting from a system that uses oppression and, therefore, it is perfectly okay to kill them.

In fact Ruin would judge the situation just the same.


"They have been blind to decades of exploitation, I feel sorry for them but not TOO sorry, especially in a critical situation where I have to make a choice between exploiters and exploited.


Ruin works on limited information and limited understanding of the political and economical situation of the city.


I understand and expect that other players will have different assessment (the situation is morally gray and I love it), and because of this I thought important to explain what were the reasoning behind my character's actions.

 

[Axelgear]

Xarvh, you didn't just try and explain that it was important, you said, amongst other things, and I quote:

Praan saw things as an opportunity to whine about his teammates.
He did nothing else so far.


His grand entrance in the game is to threaten a teammate.


Man, you do know how to play a hero.

That is not accepting differences and constructively trying to explain a possible sticking point, that is insulting another player for their character disagreeing, quite legitimately, with your character's moral stand-points. That's not explaining yourself, that's insulting someone.


If Ruin had reacted to Praan with the same force IN GAME, lashing out at him and actually providing an interesting point of conflict, that would have been appropriate. Praan reacting the way he has is appropriate for the character.


What's at issue isn't that Ruin necessarily has a morality that most people might find offensive, this is Exalted, that's par for the course. What is at issue is that, instead of rolling with their objections and having Ruin respond to them, you've just sort of ignored them.

 

[xarvh]

What's at issue isn't that Ruin necessarily has a morality that most people might find offensive, this is Exalted, that's par for the course. What is at issue is that, instead of rolling with their objections and having Ruin respond to them, you've just sort of ignored them.

Ok.


I'll rewrite my post if I'm in time.

 

[Axelgear]

Xarvh, that entire list of quotes was a long list of quote mining and insults. I've deleted it and I will ask you not to repost it.


I will not have my players insulting each other, Xarvh. There is no arguing this. This is your first and only warning. Keep. The arguments. IC. If you don't like it, you can leave at any time and I will write Ruin out of the game.


Edit: See, what you did in the IC now? That's fine and dandy. Thank you for changing it.

 

[xarvh]

Posted IC, hope it goes.


I'll keep everything IC.


I can assure you that everything I wrote was my honest understanding of TableFace post.


However, I have no interest in reposting it.


Further, I brought everything in the OOC for the sole reason that I though quarreling too much IC would fuck up the game.


If the other players and the ST think that it would be amusing to have it IC, I will comply enthusiastically.


If both chars survive the upcoming hostilities (Ruin won't last long against Praan lightsaber) I will ask Tableface for an OOC truce.

 

[Tableface]

There's... really nothing to truce, man. I don't have a thing against you, but you've been alarmingly hostile for this entire exchange.


Exalted is a game about heroes, about classic heroes, the subjects of Indian and Greek mythology. It's about people of immense gifts but with terrible flaws, or with moral barometers so divorced and alien from the standard that they represent a threat to their own ambitions and those around them. The Chosen are the sorts of people who would fill the honest, hard-working man with abject religious terror: these people are brave, they are strong, and they can and will ruin your life just by being on the periphery of it, or maybe even because they actually wanted to. And they have divine right to do it. The universe not only approves, it rewards them for it, for igniting the riot that kills your family, for mind-raping you into abandoning your little homestead and trotting off to die in some foreign war in a place you've never heard of or care about. The Chosen are beings of immense virtue, which is the source of their strength and their weaknesses.


On top of all of that, Exalted is a game that not only gives, but assumes a great deal of player agency on part of story and events. Because of this, the Chosen will disagree with each other. They do not always get along, and they shouldn't either. But there's a difference between disagreeing or taking a hardline stance, and being at odds with what other players/characters want, and that is what needs to be watched out for. Party conflict and player conflict are not the same thing.

 

[xarvh]

Agreed, but now I'm disappointed that we sorted this out OOC. =P

 

[Brekkir]

Oh damn :x . I'm just "the flying man" now . And here I thought my entrance would make an impression :wink:

 

[Dio1]

Oh damn :x . I'm just "the flying man" now . And here I thought my entrance would make an impression :wink:

Worry not, 7 will be impressed and ask questions about your flying later, right now she's just been shot and has a few other things on her mind.

 

[Tableface]

Arynne, Midboss, Effing Skrakes, I have to ask:


What exactly are you trying to do? I mean, the entire point of this slave revolt and all our characters being here is so that they all have a chance to finally meet up, form a party, start going on kickass world-changing adventures, the usual Exalted faire. But right now it just seems like you're doing everything you can to prevent this possibility. Skrakes, at the first chance for it, you ran off to another area altogether. Midboss, your character is full set just to stand aside. Arynne, your character is trying to stop the first major attempt at plot progression this game has. This despite how one of their own (Brekkir's character) has apparently thrown in with these guys, and even though these guys are clearly either fellow Solar Exalted or associates of fellow Solar Exalted.


New Solar Exalted are a big thing, and one of you is avoiding them, one is trying to not connect with them, and another is trying to pick a fight over something that isn't even happening yet in the middle of a violent riot. I mean if you guys want to get hung up on every minor details and pointless minutae of character interaction, you are playing the wrong style of game. Play by post does not handle that well. Schedules do not handle that well. Pacing does not handle that well.


I want to get on with this game, find out the mystery of the bluecloaks, potentially side with or overthrow the despot. Not watch two characters argue in the middle of a combat zone about whether the Geneva Convention applies to a single bluecloaked dude before anything has actually happened yet! That is not compelling, that is not interesting, and it does not take us anywhere. There needs to be attempts at cohesion, or it will never occur. This is why Dio had his character outright run up to your characters: because there had been little initiative for it up until then, and it provided you an opportunity.


I'm not going over this to criticize or put down. I really just want to play Exalted, and we've been held up on fairly important things for a bit longer than we should have, so far. The ball is in your court at this point, guys.

 

[Midboss]

Well, the problem is, our characters have only just arrived in the scene of a riot without the first clue what is happening.


Considering the very objectionable actions both sides have commited, it's best not to pick sides until one has figured out what is going on. Don't want to become a pawn in someone's dastardly plan like some random JRPG hero.


Also, the only conclusivly identified solar attacked guards trying to defend the local people from the rioting slaves, causing her to highly question his judgment.


My character, for one, is someone who prefers the guile hero style of adventuring. She considers brute force a last resort at best, and something ready to horribly backfire at worst and quite frankly, the riot there is only reinforcing her conviction.

 

[Arynne]

Likewise, my character has no idea that yours is a Solar. And she's a priest. She has average compassion but strong principles. And she has some pretty bad stuff in her past she's trying to make up for. Given those things, I think it's totally reasonable that she wouldn't cheerfully acquiesce to torture.


If you feel frustrated because this is the only lead, have your character tell Shadow and Farah that. They're the ones who need to be convinced.

 

[Axelgear]

I just want to point out that, if you have witnessed any of the events regarding Ruin, you have also witnessed Praan flare his caste mark (it's in Tableface's posts, along with the whole beamklaive bit) and 7:24 has both an orichalcum breastplate and orichalcum hammer. If you're going to go so far as to use deduction and assume the man will be tortured, it'd require a far lesser feat of understanding to figure out that there's at least three known Solars there.


Also, Rahim is flying, so, y'know, there's that.


This is a group of clearly supernaturally potent people, trying to get the hell out of Rome while it burns.

 

[Tableface]

Well, the problem is, our characters have only just arrived in the scene of a riot without the first clue what is happening.
Considering the very objectionable actions both sides have commited, it's best not to pick sides until one has figured out what is going on. Don't want to become a pawn in someone's dastardly plan like some random JRPG hero.

There are Investigation Charms that allow you to do just this. Why do you not have them? More importantly, if this is such an important part of your characterization to stall the game, why do you not have Investigation period? People don't Exalt for standing on the sidelines waiting for all the right info to come to them before they potentially decide whether or not they are going to do something. They doggedly pursue it themselves, already thinking of what they are going to do once they have it.

Also, the only conclusivly identified solar attacked guards trying to defend the local people from the rioting slaves, causing her to highly question his judgment.
My character, for one, is someone who prefers the guile hero style of adventuring. She considers brute force a last resort at best, and something ready to horribly backfire at worst and quite frankly, the riot there is only reinforcing her conviction.

As Axelgear already pointed out, there's a hell of a lot more to tell you these these characters are Exalted or at least Special, not the least of which being that this is a game and you, the player, know darn well they are but for some reason are choosing to not participate.


And you're playing a game where the main characters were designed as world-ending superweapons meant to kill cosmic principles, are assumed to have world-altering goals which they pursue, and who flare into giant pillars of world-bleaching light when they use their powers to do anything. If you're expecting guile to be the norm or even common you are playing the wrong game.

Likewise, my character has no idea that yours is a Solar. And she's a priest. She has average compassion but strong principles. And she has some pretty bad stuff in her past she's trying to make up for. Given those things, I think it's totally reasonable that she wouldn't cheerfully acquiesce to torture.
If you feel frustrated because this is the only lead, have your character tell Shadow and Farah that. They're the ones who need to be convinced.

As mentioned, she has plenty of reasons to think that, and the best place to take a stand on a principle is not on the nebulous possibility that it MAY occur, while in the middle of being shot and stabbed at, but in a quiet place where should could actually effect change. Do you honestly expect us to break into sophic argument at the drop of a hat while being attacked in order to obtain your character's permission to play the game? That's ridiculous, especially when half of us have removed ourselves already to give you the chance to move on to the next scene. She'd be better off following along to try and make sure no torture happened because this is clearly very important information that very important people are trying to get, because what you're having her do now is just a pointless obstruction.


It is your responsibility to get involved in the game, not mine to get you involved, though between me and Dio we've tried anyway. I've tried to move the plot forward by giving us a lead, and he's tried to get you involved by literally having his character run up to yours and tell you that we're moving the plot forward.


This is your ball to drop. You can throw BUT MY CHARACTER excuses all you want, but you are holding this up, and doing your damned best to not be involved at all. If that's your character, it's not one compatible with team play.

 

[Axelgear]

I want to include a small comment here in regards to the idea of "Guile Heroics".


It's fine and dandy to be subtle in your plans or use webs of alliances and deception as your goals. These sorts of tactics tend not to be applicable in the middle of a war-zone but they're good as a rule for politics.


However, playing a character whose modus operandi is "Stay out of the spotlight" will result in just that: You staying out of the spotlight. No-one will bother interacting with you if you don't have anything to offer them. It sounds badass in books and movies when you hear about people who work behind the scenes as super-secret puppet master, but the truth is, they're generally dull as hell in roleplaying.


It's possible to still play a socially focused and intelligent hero, but there's ways and means, of which "Not drawing any attention to myself" is not really one.

 

[Midboss]

Ok, lets all calm down before tempers flare.


I never said my character wasn't going to do squat. After all, she has been making sure to defend civilians stuck in the fight and taking down the bluies. She does indeed intent to have a very stern talk with the prisoner once the dust settles down. From this information, she then plans to track down the slave rebellion and turn it into something better (ie less likely to kill civilians).


And I certainly never said my character was staying out of the spotlight. She's going to be a leader inspiring the people to greatness. After all, it's better to convince people to join your side than just clubbing them. Then there's more of you when the real enemies come in.


As for the not identifying the others, yeah, I'll give a mea culpa on this one. The problem of trying to follow several long posts, lost track of things. That's just a posting error on my part.


And Axelgear, you of all people thinking an expert in manipulation is boring to play. Have you already forgotten the character who's avatar you are still using ?

 

[Skrakes]

Skrakes, at the first chance for it, you ran off to another area altogether.

I have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion.