Yu-Shan And Creation

[Ker'ion]

What is the relationship between these two places?


I have an idiot gamer* trying to convince me that the books state that both Yu-Shan and Creation exist in the same place, taking up the same space and therefore an Artifact that is meant to be capable of piercing the layer of reality between Creation (material), Creation (immaterial), Malfeas, the Underworld and Yu-Shan can pierce the layer between everywhere except for the layer between Yu-Shan and Creation, as they're supposedly so much in the same place that you can't "plane jump" between them.


DOES THIS $!@#^*% make any sense?


(Please include a page reference if you can find anything supporting his claim)


*Whether he's right or wrong on this argument doesn't change his status, so I'm not being derogatory about EM disagreeing with me over the above situation. He just might be right.

 

[Persell]

I'm not sure where I read this, but I thought Yu Shan was basically a spirit Sanctum (or Dominion, or what ever gods' personal little dimensions are called) albeit on a massive scale. Not sure if that helps, or is true.

 

[Flagg]

News to me. Ask him to give you a page reference or shut up.

 

[Jukashi]

I doubt the way he's backing it up, since if there was no way of jumping between them then neither the Yu-Shan gates or Mercury's portals would work. But I imagine there is supposed to be some sort of primordial-level effect that stops you getting through anything except a proper gate. Otherwise, what'd be the point of all the security? Yu-Shan is an exclusive club. If there's anywhere you're not getting into uninvited, it's Heaven.

 

[cyl]

From what I understood, Creation and Yu Shan are effectively in the same plane.


There are 4 planes in the Exalted universe: Creation, the Underworld, Malfeas, Elsewhere... I would not dare counting the Wyld as a plane, but it's definitely something similar...


Quoting the Yu Shan book:

(the Prims) fashioned a pleasure-city for themselves which somehow existed outside Creation while simultaneously being part of it.

So, different place (means you can't have access to it by conventional transports, apparently the gates are the only way to get there), but same plane and same rules (apart from time apparently).

 

[Plague of Hats]

Yu-Shan is no more meaningfully "in the same place" as Creation as any other Elsewhere-based location. Like, say, Autochthonia. In fact, the only "plane" that could be said to exist in such a way would be the Underworld, since it is a closely-tied reflection that overlaps with Creation proper in places.

Quoting the Yu Shan book:

(the Prims) fashioned a pleasure-city for themselves which somehow existed outside Creation while simultaneously being part of it.

So, different place (means you can't have access to it by conventional transports, apparently the gates are the only way to get there), but same plane and same rules (apart from time apparently).

Being the first of its kind it is remarkable, but Yu-Shan is no more metaphysically coterminous with Creation than any other godly sanctum. Page 78 of the same book comes right out and states that Heaven is situated Elsewhere, and the subject got more expansive coverage in Exalted: The Sidereals if I recall correctly. The quote above isn't exactly indicative of much, and could just as well be taken as a remark on the invention of Elsewhere as a phenomenon.
Yu-Shan also follows no special rules for time. It simply has different astrological phenomena from Creation, which can be disorienting.

 

[cyl]

Well I haven't read that book yet, just opened it to find some basic stuff, but that was quite instructive.

 

[Ker'ion]

Thanks for the info.


I'll take a look into the Sidereals book later, though I'm going to pick through the Yu-Shan book after I hit up the rest of the forum.

 

[skafte]

I guess his idea comes from the fact that Yu-Shan have the same layout as the Blessed Isle - can't remember who is the primer for who.


Because Yu-Shan is enclosed in an Adamant dome, that apparently also is below, I guess it's impossible to enter the place except through on of the Yu-Shan gates - or find a crack in the dome

 

[Flagg]

If he is claiming the books support him, I don't see why the burden of proof is on you. Make him show you the page.

 

[Flamane]

Never read anything like it. Still, it kindda makes sense for me to think that piercing a hole from Creation to Yu-Shan would be more difficult than other combination. Yu-Shan is the refuge of the Primordials, far away from the eyes of those lowly beings, such as the Incarna. The wall and dome which surround it are indestructible. It's points of entrance are fixed, the Gates. Comparativelly, the "wall" that separates Creation and the Underworld, for example, is much thinner, as it actually undoes itself if the conditions are right (a Shadowland).


Your character is most probably bullshiting you, but his point is interesting... If he's just plain annoying and pushing the topic just to hinder the game and save himself, shut him up. Otherwise, give him some credit: I will steal his idea to my games...

 

[Ker'ion]

Though I disagree with his "Creation and Yu-Shan are one" mindset, I can see how much trouble there could be with having an errant Artifact out there that can just cut a hole in the air and put you in Yu-Shan.


Even a Legendary Artifact.


He did make a point that I'll allow, stating that it would take a creator of Yu-Shan to make an Artifact that could move you from one side to the other like a gate.


I think I'll just go with Immaterial, Material, Underworld and Malfeas.


And yes, I'm basing it on the subtle knife.


[EDIT:] Actually, for something with this much power, I'm thinking that maybe it should have been created by a Primordial...


But who for is the big question.


Hmm... how about by Malfeas himself as a tool for a Sidereal who was on his side during the war, trying to change the threads of fate so the Exalted would turn on the gods and work for the Primordials?

 

[cyl]

Heh, you got two renegades Primordial on the run (from the DotFA)... you don't need to explain everything ^^

 

[wordman]

Though I disagree with his "Creation and Yu-Shan are one" mindset' date=' I can see how much trouble there could be with having an errant Artifact out there that can just cut a hole in the air and put you in Yu-Shan.[/quote']
Celestial sorcery can (more or less) do this (whit.82), though granted it takes you to a known destination. Hurry Home and Portal can do this as well.

 

[Persell]

He did make a point that I'll allow, stating that it would take a creator of Yu-Shan to make an Artifact that could move you from one side to the other like a gate.
Actually, for something with this much power, I'm thinking that maybe it should have been created by a Primordial...

Wouldn't that be a Primordial, most likely Autochthon?

 

[Flamane]

I think I'll just go with Immaterial, Material, Underworld and Malfeas.
[EDIT:] Actually, for something with this much power, I'm thinking that maybe it should have been created by a Primordial...


But who for is the big question.

The only problem I see with a Primordial creating the artifact is: back before the big war, Malfeas and the Underworld didn't exist. How could they create an artifact that could do something unconceivable? After they were locked up in Malfeas, I don't think they would be allowed by the terms of their imprisonment to create something that could free them (or parts of them, as a minor soul could probably fit in the gate). Maybe demons can't cross it, but mortals and Exalted could, and with the Infernals, that would be usefull. Maybe Autochton created it as a key to reach him, as I'm assuming the artifact could reach Autochton. Cyl's rogue Primordial idea is not half bad... Only the purpose of creating it would be harder to explain, since they probably don't have underlings that could benefit from it.


Well, just some thoughts, good luck with that and your "witty" player.

 

[cyl]

Now that I think about it there are only 3 plans of existence...


The Wyld, Elsewhere and as strange as it may seem... the Underworld.


Creation exists in the Wyld, Malfeas (I could be wrong I'm not sure) and Yu Shan are Elsewhere...


The Underworld is even stronger than Creation is because shadowlands are persistent in the Wyld (it's all over the Wyld book) through their connection to the Underworld. In the "natural" order of things, without divine intervention, the Wyld makes Creation shrinks but it can alter the land of the dead. That indicates that the Underworld is either a superposed subplan in the wyld, or a different plan.


If this artifact predates the fall of the Primordials, it can only cut through the Wyld and Elsewhere, if it doesn't then it could cut anything.

 

[Ker'ion]

Made by Malfeas and She-Who-Lives-In-Her-Name during the war as a way for their spies to bring them information, this subtle looking blade can create a portal between coinciding points in any realm, be it an office in Malfeas' compound in Yu-Shan and the countryside around Juche or a portal from the gardens in his (pre-war) body into the body of another Primordial so that their lesser souls could converse over long distances to deal with points of strategy.


Late in the war, Autochthon found out about the dagger and killed it's holder while he was out spying, but the knife was lost in the battle and it's existence all but forgotten when Autochthon fled from the world. The only people left who knew of the blade are Malfeas himself, She-Who-Lives-In-Her-Name, their sister Cecelyne and, of course, the single Sidereal who had been working on the inside of the Exalts, trying to sway them to the side of the true creators of everything.


As a physical weapon, it is only a simple eight inch long, bone-handled, double edged dagger with a smoky look to the blade itself, as if it were looking through layers of mist at itself. Even with this simplistic appearance, it excels at slicing through mundane objects as well. If contact is made with an object, treat the damage as penetrating all soak and hardness with a net success of zero. When used against bare flesh, the knife can oddly only do one single point of unsoakable lethal damage per attack.


Using this blade requires the commitment of ten motes, an exceptionally strong force of will (a minimum Willpower of 7), making at least 3 successes on a Wits + Lore roll* to discern where you are going and the expenditure of five motes or a temporary point of Willpower to open the door. Closing the door requires only a single success on a Wits + Lore roll and no power. This may seem light for such a significant Artifact, but the weapon actually draws most of it's power from it's Creator, alerting him to it's every use.


With this monumental amount of power comes but a single drawback:


Every time the wielder slices through the fabric of reality to move from one world into the next, the intervening thickness of the door that is created passes through the heart of Malfeas himself, releasing a single (dematerialized) First Circle Demon into the realm you are leaving as a simple reminder that the father of all is ever aware of the passing of Creation. As a note: the demon that is released has no idea of the events that led to it being left in another realm.


*Botching the Wits + Lore roll means that the wielder was distracted by the outside world when cutting and jarred the blade, shattering it. Repairing the knife takes a master blacksmith with a Craft Fire (Weapons) pool of ten and five successes for every break that must be mended.


Example: if the blade fell into four pieces, that's three breaks and fifteen successes needed to repair it.


Due to the oaths taken by the denizens of Malfeas, no demon may use the doorway proper to pass out of the confines of hell itself.