XP costs for Sorcery

[Flagg]

I've noticed that in the games I've run and played in, sorcery is always kind of marginalized by the players, and often people who play "spellcaster" style characters feel left in the dust by the rest of the group.


I think there are several reasons for this. While sorcery can be very powerful, most spells have a pretty narrow scope of applicability to any given situation. On top of that they cost a lot of motes and Willpower, and in combat they are slow to use.


If I were playing a character, and I had a choice to spend my 8 XP to learn Ritual of Elemental Empowerment or an Excellency, I'd chose the Excellency, and probably get a LOT more use out of it.


I think that for a character who relies primarily on spellcasting, they need a significantly larger repertoire of spells than their Charm-focused brethren to be as generally useful.


Therefore, as an experiment, I've decided to halve the XP cost for spells and see if it helps/hurts.


Thoughts?

 

[Brickwall]

Spells are narrowly focused, but very powerful. Most of the time I play with sorcerers, one spell gets used more than five Charms with no overlap combined. There's no reason to reduce the XP cost or training time.

 

[Flagg]

Ok, so there's Brickwall's obligatory contrarian reply. Any others?

 

[cyl]

Well there are 3 problems with sorcery I can think of.


- Training times weeks instead of days


- casting times: this need fixing


- xp cost


I think halving the xp cost does not help much the sorcery in its uses, but it sure helps the sorcerer.


But the training time remains a limit. It takes months to develop a good repertory of spells while it takes a day or two (in case of out of caste/favored ability) to learn an excellency.


Halving the xp cost only allows you to buy more things aside spells in the free time you have.


Basically it means when a sorcerer wants to spend xp and has a few months ahead of him, it will be the time that will limit his xp expenditures, and not necessarily his xp pool.


I would be in favor of :


- changing the casting times to make sorcery more useful,


- reducing the xp cost to match the charms (the training times are left as they are and still play their role as limit to how many charm you can learn).

 

[Arthur]

Wordman intervention in 3... 2... 1...

 

[StarHawk]

Having played a semi-sorcerer type character in the past, perhaps it was an issue with the ST, but my issue was resources to learn these spells and how much time it takes to learn them and goodness forbid learning the next level.


With spells you can not *ding* know them like one can with charms. You need books and mentors or ancient tomes. It makes it a pain in the ass to learn new spells.


I feel the versatility of spells can be what you make them to be. As a starting character, you only get a small handful of spells. It becomes the player's responsibility to find multiple uses for Death of Obsidian Butterflies.

 

[Ryvaken Tadrya]

A character that wants to blow the hell out of the enemy in combat should not turn to sorcery. Rather, the sorcerer should be the one that wants to solve problems. Summoning, transportation, communication, these are the hallmarks of a sorcerer. Direct combat spells should only be considered if mass combat is expected.


In these roles as utilitarian mages, sorcery is quite balanced.

 

[cyl]

In these roles as utilitarian mages' date=' sorcery is quite balanced.[/quote']
Not at all, considering the training times and xp spent on getting utilitarian powers, a sorcerer is completely screwed over the exalt using charms and other ressources to get lesser or similar results.


Hence Flagg proposing halving the xp cost.


Considering the training times and xp cost:


100 xp gets you:


- 10 terrestrial spells and you need 10 weeks to learn them with a teacher/book


- 12 charms + a basic combo excellency + charm, and you need around 7 weeks to get them (considering you buy series of charms with ability mins 3-4).


Buying charms makes you almost as versatile and useful in a group as sorcery... of course you cannot invoke food or seperate the waters but hey... with those charms you bought, do you really need to anymore ?

 

[strawberryleaves]

Let us know how it works out.


In the campaigns I've been involved in, sorcery rarely played a role in game-time--other than the Countermagics. We didn't follow strict training times either, as the sorcerer usually had plot design on her side.

 

[wordman]

Wordman intervention in 3... 2... 1...

I give a big thumbs-up to this experiment, not that you need or care about such a thing. I look forward to hearing how it works. I totally agree with the analysis that spawned the idea.
I've house ruled that lunars pay less for spells than solars do for a while, but haven't tried anything like half cost. I'd be tempted to try it in a new campaign, possibly along with a training time reduction. This comes with some caveats, however, based on the way I run sorcery:

• I pay strict attention to the process and cost of initiating into the various levels of sorcery.
  
• I require learning spells from a book (thus, allowing a method of control over the spells allowed in the campaign, and the pace at which they are introduced).
  
• Designing new spells is possible, but hard and risky.
  
• I'd allow use of my "Swiftly Forged" sorcery charms and house rules on strengthening sorcery.
  
• I'd leave everything else the same, in terms of spell cost, spell timing and so on.

With these (mostly canonical) restrictions in place, I don't think half xp (and training time) for spells would be that unbalancing.


On the other hand, I've been playing with other ways of doing sorcery as well, based mostly on the idea that sorcery isn't risky enough, as assumption with which a lot of people disagree.


Flagg, what is your "success condition"? That is, how will you tell if this is an addition that "works" or not?

 

[Brickwall]

Considering the training times and xp cost:
100 xp gets you:


- 10 terrestrial spells and you need 10 weeks to learn them with a teacher/book

Noo...assuming Solar XP costs as you did for Charms, it gets you 12 spells of any circle.


Spells are powerful things. With spells, you can create manses, doom large cities, travel to heaven from anywhere, create swift hunters from thin air, summon powerful demons as servants to your whims, melt into the earth, ensure that another can never repeat a secret, and other great feats that Charms cannot hope to replicate. You don't use them as often because they are expensive, and they are expensive because they are practically overkill for whatever situation they apply to. The difference between many years of labor by hundreds of expensive workers, or a couple weeks of magicyness.


Spells are fine. If they're causing you problems, you're using them wrong.

 

[cyl]

Forgot to add "under the current system" when I posted :roll:


And nooo , if you halve only the xp cost for 100 xp and 10 weeks, you still get 10 charms and 20 xp left.


You need 2 more weeks to learn the rest.


Halving the training time/ reducing it to 5 days per circle might be a good thing too.


It gets you 12 spells in 8 weeks with the reduced cost and the reduced training time... I say this is fair.

 

[Flagg]

I'm hearing a few of counterarguments which state that spells can do powerful things, which I don't dispute, but spells usually do ONE very specific thing, and do it well. If your current situation does not require you to raise a manse or teleport to heaven, then you might as well not know the spell, because if that's all your character knows how to do, you will be TOTALLY USELESS. You can be a very useful utilitarian spellcaster if you know a LOT of spells, but with that same XP investment, a Solar who buys Charms will be able to punch the Imperial Mountain in half with his bare hands and sway millions with a single word.


The other thing that makes sorcery an expensive proposition is that it requires you to pay for three Charms that literally give you NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER aside from letting you cast spells, which you then have yo spend even MORE points to purchase.

 

[Flagg]

Flagg, what is your "success condition"? That is, how will you tell if this is an addition that "works" or not?

I don't have a specific test other than to see what happens. Generally, if it seems to make sorcery more viable for my players I will consider it a success and institute it permanently. Should it become unbalanced or abusive I'll put a stop to it.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

I say if it's not broken, don't fix it. Sorcery in general is HIGHLY flexible, and is NOT restricted by your shard's thematics, unlike Charms. And implementing such a rule based on flexibility is predicated on individual spells.


The Terrestrial circle counterspell and Demon of the First Circle come to mind.

 

[Flagg]

Sorcery in general is HIGHLY flexible

I'm getting tired of repeating myself. "Sorcery" may be flexible, but any given spell is generally highly specific. Of course there are exceptions, but do you fundamentally disagree with that?

 

[wordman]

Out of curiosity, please think about every character you've seen another player you know personally make and use in Exalted. Report what percentage of them were sorcerers.


Take this poll.

 

[Vanman]

The other thing that makes sorcery an expensive proposition is that it requires you to pay for three Charms that literally give you NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER aside from letting you cast spells, which you then have yo spend even MORE points to purchase.

I agree with Flagg on this point. One possibility to alleviate this problem would be to say that, when you complete the initiation into the appropriate level, you get that charm for free. The completion of the initiation gives you the appropriate knowledge to cast spells. The player can then concentrate on picking appropriate spells, with no worry about blowing the xp on the charm.

 

[Sherwood]

I have mixed feelings about spells. I love the out of combat abilities that a good library of spells give you, but, in combat, even with a spell such as Flying Guillotine, it drops your speed of casting to at least one half that of the rest of the party, if not more. One option to help out would be to reduce the casting time by one level; Terrestrial spells are fast, Celestial take an extra action, and Adamant take two.

 

[cyl]

Well maybe reducing the casting time to 3 ticks instead of 5 could be a solution.

 

[strawberryleaves]

I have mixed feelings about spells. I love the out of combat abilities that a good library of spells give you, but, in combat, even with a spell such as Flying Guillotine, it drops your speed of casting to at least one half that of the rest of the party, if not more. One option to help out would be to reduce the casting time by one level; Terrestrial spells are fast, Celestial take an extra action, and Adamant take two.

That still doesn't solve Flagg's versatility problem.


[wistful look] I remember our party really abusing sorcery-capturing cords back in 1st Edition. Worried about casting time? No more. Then again, we got a little caught up in having our Twilight make necromancy-capturing cords and spamming Shattering Void Mirror. Good times...um, what was I talking about again?

 

[Dracogryff]

The other thing that makes sorcery an expensive proposition is that it requires you to pay for three Charms that literally give you NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER aside from letting you cast spells, which you then have yo spend even MORE points to purchase.

Most people solve this problem by allowing one free spell with the purchase of one of the Sorcery Charms. *shrugs* I know I do. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me...you've learned how to cast spells without learning a spell to cast seems more illogical to me.


Granted, it does need to be house-ruled to be so, but still, I've never had an issue with it breaking a character to allow the free spell with the purchase of the (insert level) Circle Sorcery Charm.


I've also never played a character focused on sorcery for long enough to see what happens long term. Having a few utility tricks like Countermagic and Incantation of Effective Restoration has been handy on characters, but I've never really gone beyond dabbling in a game that has lasted more than a half dozen sessions.


The fact that most of the spells don't interest me doesn't help. Don't know what to say about the narrow focus bit and all, but I really have no idea what halving the cost would do, other than it's a better version of something they thought was a 5 point Merit in 1E. With your version, you don't double the cost of all other Charms (save Ox Body) to halve your sorcery costs.


It can't hurt to try it, though.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

My general thought on the 'narrow focus' bit is pretty simple. Do you expect your Linguistics charms to be useful in combat? Your Melee charms to be useful for writing a letter? Investigation charms to be useful in telling the pretty girl no? Then frankly, I don't see how being able to learn a spell to craft a Manse is any less useful. Or learn a spell to translate for you, whatever your Linguistics. Or learn a spell to grant good soak, whatever your Resistance. Need another sword arm? Sorcery can supply such as well. All for the low, low cost of one, two or three charms, and then learning the spell. Sure, most of the time I think Solar Circle Sorcery is a waste of time...but that because none of the spells interest me much. Terrestrial Circle Sorcery and Celestial Circle Sorcery both have plenty of useful spells. Can you completely dedicate yourself to Sorcery and sacrifice all other ability? Probably not. Nor should you be able to. Anymore than you should be able to dispense with social abilities because you have a big sword.

 

[Ker'ion]

I'd leave the XP costs as they are, halving the training times and tacking on the freebie spell with each Circle that is purchased.


Though my last character had Celestial Circle Sorcery and Labyrinth Circle Necromancy.


I caught a Legion near a cave, half camped out a little ways off, the other half entering the cave. Dematerialized, stood in front of the cave, dropped Ivory Razor Forest on them, hit Death of Obsidian Butterflies three times and then did it again.


Everything but the Siddies died. Then I killed one of them and the other one ran off. Saved the PC coming through the cave from the other side of the cave.

 

[Arthur]

In my opinion, the main issue with sorcery is the casting time, which makes it essentially useless for attacking outside Mass Combat or some rare battles.