Who is more screwed: Abyssals or Infernals?

[Kyeudo]

The discussion in the Hauberk of Bells thread got me thinking about which of the Solar derivatives is more forced to be a weapon against Creation.


On the one hand, you have the Abyssal Exalted. All Deathknights at one time agreed to slay the world in exchange for life and power. They can't do anything to defend Creation or create something new without buidling Resonance that eventually vents and causes someone or something to die. All their Charms are dedicated to inficting pain, fear, and death upon as many beings as possible. To top it off, a Deathknight's Motivation must always be phrased in terms of destroying something.


On the other hand, you have the Infernal Exalted. During the creation of a new Green Sun Prince, a mortal's soul is subjecting to as much warping as the Yozis can possibly do while still leaving the Exalt's free will intact, then fuse a demon into the Exalt's soul. All Green Sun Princes are possessed by a powerful Urge to turn some portion of Creation into Hell. This Urge is ever-present and denying it eventually causes the Infernal to suffer Torment, inflicting some terrible curse upon the Exalt and all those who he cares about. A Green Sun Prince draws his Charms directly from the Yozis, granting him powers that actively reward furthering the cause of the trapped Primordials.


One can't help but kill, the other can't escape the voice in his head telling him to conquer the world. Which is worse off?

 

[Thanqol]

They're both amazingly screwed. But I believe the Abyssals are more screwed.


The Neverborn have the goal of 'kill everything', and making Exalts to do that is remarkably easy. And thus, many of them are not inclined to rebel at all. And that's the ultimate 'screwed' - because every Abyssal that doesn't rebel increases the chance that the Abyssals 'win' and succeed in killing everything.


The Yozi have the goal of 'Perform a stupidly complex series of diabolical acts to change the very foundations of Creation, while not being spotted, cause as much collateral damage, monologue when possible, obsess over things, help demon cultists, worship and respect your Primordial masters, kill that bastard Autochthon, smash the Defense Grid, kill the Fey...' And any human being, twisted by demons or not, is eventually going to look at this shopping list of stupidly contradictory goals and say "Screw You Guys". Infernals are far more likely to realize their masters are insane, and far less likely to be loyal to them. And thus, the chance of Yozi apocalypse becomes a rapidly diminishing twinkle.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

And that's assuming half the Yozi's even really WANT to win. Some of them are crazy enough that they very well might not really want to. It's even brought up directly in the Infernal's book.


Still, either can go renegade in some manner, and fight if they so choose. They just have to be careful about it. It's not like they're Akuma. Those are the ones who tend to end up screwed.


An Abyssal who is clever, and carefully vents minor Resonance somewhat regularly, while taking things like Faithful Killer's Reprieve can keep their Resonance in check, and even actually get away with being in direct opposition to the cause of death now and again. But it requires being careful, and taking such...and walking a fine line from time to time. If they take Unconquered Hero's Faith, they even have access to the Mirror charms of their Abyssal charms, so long as they're willing to pay the Resonance cost of both using that option, and potential Resonance from whatever they do with it, as well. But a bit of true heroism now and then with a few days between to sleep it off with Faithful Killer's Reprieve and you're not doing too bad.


The Infernal has their own options for getting rid of Torment, some of them quite viable. Though they might find them self saddled with quite a lot of 'wives' that way...or having to play insane villain to the Fae now and again...or what have you. Of course sometimes it's FUN to capture the Fae noble and tie them to the table in your lab while the Cold Iron Death Ray charges and you tell them your entire evil scheme to turn the Wyld into more Creation.

 

[Thanqol]

... I never considered being a supervillain towards the Fey. It solves everything. That's brilliant.


My point, which I somehow missed in my own post:


Infernals face a system which makes their rebellion almost inevitable. Abyssals face one so that they serve the Neverborn, even if they turn against them. The Infernals have a chance to punch Malfeas in the face and get away without stopping being Infernals. The only way for an Abyssal to escape the Neverborn entirely is to become a Solar.


Some Abyssals don't rebel. At all. All Infernals, sooner or later, will rebel.


Therefore, I think Abyssals are worse off.

 

[Persell]

As sated in the posts above, Abyssals are the most screwed. Its almost impossible for them NOT to further the goal of oblivion, even if they rebel. Even if an Abyssal starts to pull it off, here comes Mr Deathlord to rip out your soul, or if you've grown too strong, he tosses your monstrance into the Pit.

 

[Plague of Hats]

or if you've grown too strong, he tosses your monstrance into the Pit.

This will only free an Abyssal from the tortures that can be inflicted through the monstrance, and restore any missing Willpower. Statements to the contrary should be taken as Deathlord propaganda.

 

[Persell]

Simply destroying the Monstrance does that. However, I recall reading that throwing it into the void would kill the exalt, but free the black exaltation. Cant remember where though. Maybe that was just 1ED, i dunno.

 

[Thanqol]

Simply destroying the Monstrance does that. However, I recall reading that throwing it into the void would kill the exalt, but free the black exaltation. Cant remember where though. Maybe that was just 1ED, i dunno.

It's vague. It might kill the Abyssal. I'm with Plague here and I reckon that's an elaborate bluff by the Deathlords.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Simply destroying the Monstrance does that. However, I recall reading that throwing it into the void would kill the exalt, but free the black exaltation. Cant remember where though. Maybe that was just 1ED, i dunno.

Manual: Abyssals self-contradicts on this issue. The write-up of monstrances itself should take precedence, though no official ruling has been made. Err on the side of no one having an instant, unstoppable killswitch on an Exalt.

 

[Kyeudo]

I actually like that the Deathlords have a kill switch on their Deathknights. I just don't use "Calling the Black Sun" or whatever it is that summons free roaming Abyssal Exaltations. The Deathlord has to balance the havoc the Abyssal is causing against the trouble of tracking down the next incarnation.


I still think that Infernals are more screwed that Abyssals. An Infernal denying his Urge to pursue his own plans is going to keep getting hit with Torment. An Abyssal, on the other hand, can just live in the Underworld and almost never run into any Resonance triggers.

 

[Joni-san]

I have a question: In the hypothetical scenario where Autobot is healed and/or Lytek learn how to fix corrupted Exalt Shards, who's easier to fix? Abyssals or Infernals?


I figure that Abyssals would be easier to fix. They are a Dark Mirror version of Solars. The figurative "plus signs turned into minus" so to speak.


Infernals from what I've read have undergone more tinkering. I've read in different places that very experienced Infernals start to resemble Primordials, with multiple souls and all. Someone even wrote a hypothetical scenario where a high Essence Infernal walked out into the Wyld to create his own creation.

 

[Thanqol]

It actually addresses this in Infernals.


If Lytek got an Infernal shard, he could clean it with his tools because of all the extra gunk stuck to it that he could break off. However, this 'gunk' makes the Infernal Exaltation more of a transformation, and makes it so that an Infernal can't become a Solar while still alive.


Abyssals can't be cleaned by Lytek, as their shards are inside out. The only way to redeem an Abyssal shard is to redeem an Abyssal - only a heroic soul can provide the light needed to restore the Shard.


*


Of course, I believe that Autochthon is responsible for all Creation's troubles and the only correct response to him trying to do anything is to stab him in the eye.

 

[krrackknut]

Creation was in trouble the moment it was thought of. In fact, Creation itself is trouble incarnate.


Although; Abyssals are forged from those who spit in death's eye. Infernals gestalt in the raped, bloated body of a little girl. Who's really more screwed up?

 

[Thanqol]

Creation was in trouble the moment it was thought of. In fact, Creation itself is trouble incarnate.
Although; Abyssals are forged from those who spit in death's eye. Infernals gestalt in the raped, bloated body of a little girl. Who's really more screwed up?

Why does everyone think Infernals have some sort of twisted relationship with Lillun? Seriously, she's essentially Lytek's cabinet for Infernal shards. The person who becomes the Infernal never has to meet her.


And the easiest houserule in the universe is "Lillun is hot". Make her a sexy demon lady rather than the blob and Infernals are suddenly classy.


And, for a better comparison, look at the torture process for converting Solars into Abyssals through a Monstrance of Celestial Portion. You torture them until their mind breaks while they're stuck immobile in a giant hunk of soulsteel until they can either become an Abyssal or die in Oblivion. Suddenly not so hardcore, eh?


Edit: Oh, and there's nothing wrong with Creation - before Autochthon made the Exalted. Seriously, everything was perfect Back Then (Primordial propaganda ahoy) - the Gods couldn't rebel, humanity was kept in check by the Dragon Kings, and everyone did what they were supposed to do. Until Autochthon boned everything up by making immortal all powerful monsters.

 

[Persell]

Actually, Creation was boned the moment they decided to make the Gods and go play the Games.

 

[Jukashi]

Edit: Oh, and there's nothing wrong with Creation - before Autochthon made the Exalted. Seriously, everything was perfect Back Then (Primordial propaganda ahoy) - the Gods couldn't rebel, humanity was kept in check by the Dragon Kings, and everyone did what they were supposed to do. Until Autochthon boned everything up by making immortal all powerful monsters.

If occasionally being stepped on/nom nom'd/broken by a primordial is your idea of "perfect".

 

[Thanqol]

Actually, Creation was boned the moment they decided to make the Gods and go play the Games.

The gods couldn't do anything about it, though! That was the point! And then Autochthon wrecked the whole system. Ergo, it's all his fault.

If occasionally being stepped on/nom nom'd/broken by a primordial is your idea of "perfect".

Pish tosh, minor inconveniences. That only happened a few times. You people blow the tiniest little things way out of proportion. Justification after the fact.


And I posit that occasionally being stepped on is better than being reasonably certain you're going to face a genocidal army of the living dead who will make your soul into a set of Hearthstone Bracers sometime in your life.

 

[Jukashi]

And I posit that occasionally being stepped on is better than being reasonably certain you're going to face a genocidal army of the living dead who will make your soul into a set of Hearthstone Bracers sometime in your life.

When I said "nom nom'd", and also when I said "broken", I was in fact referring to souls.

 

[Thanqol]

When I said "nom nom'd", and also when I said "broken", I was in fact referring to souls.

Yes... well... they always fixed things afterwards. And it didn't happen that often.


Back on the propaganda wagon: How much do you value your ability to feel love? That's something Adorjan came up with. Who knows what else the Primordials would have invented had they been left alone. Nothing we can imagine, definitely - new concepts, like an entirely new sense. How can you put a price tag on that? Even if the price tag is a few hundred million human souls? And humans are just essence production and redistribution nodules anyway.


Three health levels wrapping five motes, as an Abyssal once said.


Anyway, the real perfect system would be the Exalted acting as humanity's representatives to the Primordials, preventing atrocities but without the whole murder-things-that-should-not-be-murdered angle. Which would work best with healing the Yozi into full Primordials - they know that they can be whupped, so they'll probably tread a whole lot more carefully.

 

[Dracogryff]

Back on the propaganda wagon: How much do you value your ability to feel love?

Hmm. So they gave people the ability to feel, and thus boned themselves when these people started to resent having people that they loved (which was given to them by the primordials) stepped on/nom nom'd/broken by these things.


And after all, it's these virtues they gave people that cause the Solars and all them to go batshit every now and again, too (which they also did, ergo Great Curse), so...really, it all comes back to the fact that they decided to create ANYTHING at all in the first place that boned things. If they'd just left it nice, shapeless pure chaos...none of this would have happened...


But they just HAD to experiment...and brought it all on themselves.


*coughs* Okay, now that I have apparently done some good 'ole unshaped fae propoganda or something...I...really don't have much to say. I haven't read the Infernals book, and so can't really compare. O.o So...well...yeah. I'll wander off now and leave people to their discussion or whatnot. ^.^

 

[Thanqol]

No! You're wrong! It was perfect right up until Autochthon boned it up! Nothing they did could possibly have ever come back to bite them until one of their number decided to brutally murder his entire family! It's all Autochthon's fault!


Alternatively, She Who Lives In Her Name has the right of it, and Free Will is an abomination that should never have been invented. We may object to it because we value our Free Will, but maybe if we didn't have it we'd see how much better off we'd be without it.

 

[Persell]

Autochthon would like to have a word with you. Him and his 10,000 Celestial Exalted.

 

[Thanqol]

As a wise (read: Crackpot inventor) once said: "The Airship you see before you is the only one of it's kind. Therefore, it is the best of it's kind! If they were to mass-produce it, this airship would no longer be perfect, but instead merely average."


This applies to Exalted. I'll bank on Creation's exalts over Autochthon's any day.


Bringing 10,000 Exalted to a fight means you're bringing 10,000 Extras. God help you.

 

[Persell]

By your quote, Creations Exalted are all average as well. I suggest you try again.

 

[Thanqol]

Creation's Exalted /are/ average. That's why the PCs are exceptional; because there's only 5 of them. Notice how the average group of PCs blows through challenges none of the various NPCs do?


Conversely, if there was only one Solar Exalt in the world, I'd expect him to be on the Scarlet Throne /right now/.


But making 10,000 Celestial Exalted makes them all faceless mooks. Creation's Exalts have the advantage of being too spread out to have that problem. Inverse Ninja Law. Don't they teach you kids anything?


Why did the 5 Maidens make only 100 Sidereals? And why do those 100 Sidereals currently rule the world?