What should be in a 3rd Edition

[chalicier]

Well, I tend to play Dawns, Full Moons, and other combat-specialized characters. It is very easy to be good at combat and you know what they say - "When all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail". If there is any combat optimized characters in the group, they want to fight. It's what they do best. Looking for a way to not fight is like looking for a way to be bored and ineffective - it's almost counterintuitive.

Well, there are (were) three serious combat threats in my 6-strong party (a Perfect Circle plus a weird Fair Folk/Solar thingy which I won't go into here).


The now-dead Dawn Caste was an Icewalker opposed to the Bull's plans for domination, which meant that with the exception of clear threats such as undead, demons, the Wyld Hunt, Lintha etc he generally treated most things as foreign weirdness and not worth the effort of killing. He was an absolute monster, a Grand Killstick-wielding Melee & War monstrosity that turned out capable of chopping an Earth Aspect in Elemental Armour in half in a single blow. But the player interpreted his character's methods as going wherever possible for the biggest and most visible gesture of personal potency rather than just "kill it dead", which helped hugely. He held off from getting a surprise negator for a long while simply because he felt having his character be functionally unkillable except via mote tapping would be boring. And indeed in the end a surprise attack from a massively lethal small girl he was trying to protect finished him off.


The Zenith Caste is a horrendously powerful setup, using an enhanced set of Gauntlets of Distant Touch along with Snake Style and Hungry Ghost Style tricks in vicious Combos. He punched a Slayer to death from 30 feet away. But after the character spent the first 4 or 5 sessions brutalising everything he encountered, the player settled in, and resolved the conflict between himself and the party's Compassionate medic (the Fair Folk/Solar thingy) by essentially shutting himself off from unnecessary violence and keeping back his full abilities for the moment they become necessary. The result has been a shift into a sort of zen ultraviolence, where the player responds to threats and challenges with koans and prayers before finally resorting to almost instant kills. This is the kind of character that deliberately hobbles itself in a martial arts tournament so as to better learn the value of humility. It's turned out awesome.


And finally, the Twilight Caste entered play with an Artifact 4 mega-firewand-of-death and the charms to back it up, along with Lore 5 and the Second Excellency. She deals with singular threats by handing out 30-40 damage dice of flaming death repeatedly until it stops being there. But that turned out not to be much of a problem; multiple enemies cause her severe issues and she's been forced to rely on the Twilight Anima a couple of times. The real problem is that she creates the necessary elements to get around any problem I put in front of the players by making something on the spot with a nasty Craft Combo. That's turned out to be way more of an issue than the firewand ever could have been - I can't stop her finding a way out of anything unless I actually tie her up and gag her. (I have similar problems with the Night Caste but tying and gagging doesn't work on Nights...)


I now have a Gold Faction Sid in the party with virtually every one of his starting Charms as Martial Arts. He barely uses them - he spends almost his entire time in play using Resplendent Destinies and endless Efficient Secretary Technique.


I think ultimately it's a play-style issue. One thing which helped is that with the exception of the Dawn and Twilight players, all of my party were Exalted virgins when we started well over a year ago. I suspect it's going to be more of a problem now my players are starting to reach Essence 4, but it remains to be seen.

 

[chalicier]

A decent realm building / managing system.
Solars are supposed to take the reins of Creation, and I'd have killed for a decent system for the Mandate of Heaven...

I have the beginnings of a vague idea involving "groups" which is intended to merge mass combat units, social units, Bureaucracy units, and at the highest levels, nations. I quite like the way the Solar Charms interact with every level of society - Twilights can run schools, Zeniths can run religions, Nights can run thieves' guilds, and so on - so I decided to see if there's a way of unifying those with the other kinds of group already in the game.


I'll post something up in House Rules once it's a bit more solidified.

 

[IcarusWings]

Personally, four of the things I've always wanted to change about Exalted (along with the obvious combat (normal, mass, and social) and Sidereal fixes) are big pet peeves of mine.


First, to give Sorcery a defined role. At the moment, Sorcery has nothing to distinguish itself from Charms other than being big out-of-combat powers, a role which over half of Charms already fill. I've always thought that Sorcery should be focused entirely on the summoning elementals and demons aspect. You don't have to lose any spells (or not very many, at least), just change their fluff; Wood Dragon's Claw for example, would be actually binding a wood elemental in your hand, and Death of Obsidian Butterflies would be invoking a void elemental (that one might need to be thematically moved to Necromancy or something) and throwing it at targets.


Second, I'd make the DB charmset focus on elemental themes rather than abilities. Give them Infernal style excellencies, and have a Mirror keyword for Charms that apply to many elements. This would let you really go into elemental themes and powers without making it weird for other aspects to have them.


Third, there's a part of me that really doesn't like having Ice and Lightning under the Air Element portfolio. I know removing them means the north is no longer cold and drastically changes Creation's climate, but there's gotta' be some way to work it out (and personally, I've always thought that the Pole of Air should be in the Sky, with the new direction of 'up' anyway).


Fourth, I just reeeaaally want Colossal and Municipal Charms for Alchemicals. Pwetty Pweeeaaaase?

 

[Joni-san]

Tell that to the dev team, who have cheapened human life to the point where you're either a one-in-a-thousand heroic character and therefore potentially useful to an Exalt, or you're a nameless, worthless extra who can be butchered en masse with no real consequences.
I support the concept of "Heroes Matter", but I despise the concept of "Only Heroes Matter".


EDIT: On another note, when did unnatural mental influence (read: brainwashing) become what Social Combat is all about? Oh yeah, it was when people realized that those pesky mortals could just spend two Willpower and nullify a Lawgiver's Righteous Decree to betray his god and his country. Can't have those extras getting too uppity!

BY THE POWER OF A THOUSAND SUNS THIS!


This is the one of the most annoying things in Exalted.

 

[Ascension1]

For me the problem with mental influence is a roleplaying issue. I get that people innately dislike getting told "your character's opinion is changed," but I feel like using Willpower to shrug off influence should be less tick a pool down and go about your business (or, more likely, tick a pool down and then start a fight so there isn't time for the bastard to use any more social charms...) and more like, well, a strenuous exertion of sheer stubbornness and heroic willpower to pull yourself back from the brink of embracing an idea that suddenly sounds *extraordinarily* enticing. I think players (and STs, for that matter, when it's a prized NPC on the receiving end of mental influence) should be willing to submit to influence on occasion, or at least make it more of a fight. The whole point of mental influence is that the other person's argument is persuasive (or brainwashy) enough that you've come to want what he's arguing. That's not the kind of thing you just shrug off, particularly given that Exalts in general have a... rather sketchy history with mental and emotional stability. Winning social combat (if you're bothering to try to use social combat in the first place) shouldn't be just about draining the other person's Willpower entirely any more than physical combat should be just about draining the other person's mote pool entirely.

 

[Lord Raziere]

so basically......according to all this, we will have to revamp the entire system. and make new charms besides.

 

[Mr. S]

so basically......according to all this' date=' we will have to revamp the entire system. and make new charms besides.[/quote']
Don't forget advancing the meta-plot and create a bunch of new signature characters too.


Also, I'm sure there's always room for one more exalt type, right?

 

[Teln]

so basically......according to all this' date=' we will have to revamp the entire system. and make new charms besides.[/quote']
Don't forget advancing the meta-plot and create a bunch of new signature characters too.

Gods, no. Not even as a joke.

Also, I'm sure there's always room for one more exalt type, right?

Implying there's ever not been room.

 

[LaFreeze]

I thought White Wolf was pretty much against advancing the meta plot and just publishing sort of advisory books like the Return of the Scarlet Empress?

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

They've realized metaplot in 2nd though, with the whole reclamation and all that. They just make the metaplots not as definitive. That's the main problem with a 3rd Ed of Exalted, is it'd have to more or less be the same setting, or they'd have to release an 'official' update to the plot, which would be frowned on greatly.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

There is no metaplot in Exalted.

 

[LaFreeze]

There is no metaplot in Exalted.

The Scarlet Empress would beg to differ, except she never begs.

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

There is no metaplot in Exalted.

Not entirely true. There is a massive metaplot infrastructure, but, it is far more 'suggestion' than WW's other products.

 

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

In 3rd Edition?


I almost want a complete re-imagining of the game. Break some new genres, rethink things from the ground up again. Develop a completely different way of handling statistics and powers. If the focus of the game is combat, that's fine. But it's silly that a non combat charm useful every 3rd session costs as much as a combat charm that is useful every session. The focus of the game can drastically change depending on how XP gets rewarded and the cost of things.


One of the best things I did in my exalted game was give two XP pools (always the same amount) Combat XP and Non Combat XP. I allowed somethings like willpower, virtues, essence, some abilities that were "iffy" to be spent from half'n'half from each. My players PC's bloomed and were very versatile both in and out of combat with each having their own specialties.


The thousands of charms amongst all the splat books has got to go. I think someone pointed out on the WW forums that there are currently about 3000 charms in the game. That is outright INSANE.


There needs to be different rules for quickly generating mooks, the Exalted wiki has some great examples of this.


I also second making sorcery more distinct. I like the idea of maybe all sorcery spells use elementals or demons somehow to get their effect. I like the idea of Dragon bloods having elemental themes like the Infernals.


I really just want a new game. I have bought/played this game for 8 years and I am done as it is. I sold my entire collection, and have moved on to new games that don't involve saving the world from 15 different threats THAT MUST BE DEFEATED.

 

[chalicier]

Without wanting to be rude, it kinda sounds that what you want from 3rd Ed Exalted is for it not to be Exalted.

 

[uteck]

Without wanting to be rude, it kinda sounds that what you want from 3rd Ed Exalted is for it not to be Exalted.

Quite the opposite in fact. We would like to see the rules of the game live up to what is described in the stories and fluff text.


The game does not live up to any anime or martial arts movie at all. Exalted has a death spiral and many pools to track that are slow to refresh. Their is no epic pause in battle were you can draw upon your will and begin fighting anew as we see in all the sources the game is supposed to be based on.


The rules are cumbersome and hinder play, many are just arbitrary and put in place because some author wanted to add something different. And the Ink Monkeys are just adding another layer of rules and pools on top of things.

 

[wordman]

We would like to see the rules of the game live up to what is described in the stories and fluff text.

Another example:


Exalted claims to be highly influenced by the writing of Tanith Lee, particularly her Tales From the Flat Earth series. And you can see a good deal of that influence in the fiction and the setting.


But play a game of Exalted and then ask yourself: did that session feel anything like Tales From the Flat Earth? And maybe you can stretch some part of the experience to have kinda, sorta a similar vibe, but not really.


Then play a game of In A Wicked Age... and ask yourself: did that session feel anything like Tales From the Flat Earth? And the answer is very likely to be "pretty much, yeah". And why? Because the mechanics of In A Wicked Age... were intentionally designed specifically to create stories like Tales From the Flat Earth.


So, to repeat what I said earlier in the thread, they need to do only two things:

1. Clearly define exactly what an Exalted story should be like.
   
2. Write mechanics that actually help make that happen at the table (as opposed to just saying that the mechanics do this).

(And, to be clear here, I don't think that current versions of Exalted do either of these two things.)

 

[Cryoseraph]

Well, after reading this thread and brainstorming the problem a little bit, I've come up with a theory of a solution. Let's see what everyone thinks. Very much Work In Progress as I'm just muddling it out now. I'll cross-post this into House Rules for actual comments and additional stuff.


One of the big things I see in a lot of anime, action oriented ones especially, is this strange habit for the main character to be super-powerful, but not always in full control of that power. I believe redesigning Essence Pools from Personal/Peripheral to Controlled/Instinctive could help that. Furthermore, you could change how much ends up in each (Terrestrials/Solar-types about half & half, Lunars high on Instinctive/low on Focused, Sidereals High on Focused/low on Instinctive). However, just changing the names wouldn't give the proper effect in combat, so instead I'm trying to figure out how to have only Focused essence run before injury, but Instinctive specifically used once injured. The Instinctive pool should be the larger one, so as to encourage getting hurt in some fights instead of all/or nothing Perfect moves constantly. Using it should also be so much simpler, as that will speed up combat the longer it goes on, since most guys just pound on each other after awhile, why not give that bit of focus to Exalted?


Secondly, to help streamline this idea, Charms should also follow such a pattern. Excellencies, heroic Martial Arts, and other simplistic charm effects (more damage, parry lethal, etc.) should fall into a more instinctive category. Such charms should be easier (XP cost) to learn than more complex charms. Other charms, what I call 2nd Tier Charms at the moment, would include more complex styles of charms, most importantly perfect-type charms and non-heroic types Martial Arts, as well as the more esoteric charms (many Sidereal charms for examples). These would have a higher XP cost than the simpler charms, but can achieve more incredible effects.


Parts not thought through yet: Wound penalties, love 'em or leave 'em? Additional effects with Favored/Caste costs. The huge list/line of what should or shouldn't be instinctive. How does any of this help Social Combat? And mostly for here:


Do you think this is the kind of change needed to make a 3rd edition more fun?

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Well this is quite minor compared to the huge issues others have brought up already, but I feel linguistics needs a revamp to grant new languages, probably on an exponential scale the way other attributes work. It bugs me slightly that I know several mortals IRL who can speak five or six languages, yet that's all my language focused solar can manage. I believe the real-life record is something like 30 languages, more than any Exalt can ever speak. I know linguistics does other stuff but capping out at 11 languages is too weak, a linguistics 5 Exalt should speak dozens of languages and a linguistics 10 solar should rival C-3P0.

 

[LaFreeze]

Do you think this is the kind of change needed to make a 3rd edition more fun?

Sort of. Basically Exalted is to bulky and inaccessible right now to new players. While I think D&D 4th edition kind of sucks I don't think they are wrong in thinking a faster easier to play game is going to be more successful. I know a number of people who live and breath 4th edition because of how fast a game can be set up and how easy it is for GMs.


I personally run and exalted variant based on the Margret Wies cortex rules which puts more emphasis on skills and less on other stats like soak. The goal being to have things like armor charms etc. etc. aid your skill rolls and make it a simple matter for players to track their skills and bonuses to those skills which helps when a lot of charms are in play. I don't think it is what 3rd edition should be like but I will say it worked for my group and made it easier to bring new players in.

 

[Cryoseraph]

Well this is quite minor compared to the huge issues others have brought up already' date=' but I feel linguistics needs a revamp to grant new languages, probably on an exponential scale the way other attributes work. It bugs me slightly that I know several mortals IRL who can speak five or six languages, yet that's all my language focused solar can manage. I believe the real-life record is something like 30 languages, more than any Exalt can ever speak. I know linguistics does other stuff but capping out at 11 languages is too weak, a linguistics 5 Exalt should speak dozens of languages and a linguistics 10 solar should rival C-3P0.[/quote']
Just to play Devil's Advocate, technically each point of Linguistics is a Language family. One dot isn't Spanish, its every Romance language in existence at once (Spanish, French, Italian, Latin, Portugese, etc.). Though without buying specialties you would speak it all with say, a british or american accent (assuming you had that language family as your native tongue, but it would also include German and some Eastern European languages as well). Does that cover every language? Probably not. But then they try to cover that with the 'tribal tongues' selection. The real power is in the charms that let you read, write or speak languages without knowing them at all. Then you can be a true polyglot.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

There is no metaplot in Exalted.

Not entirely true. There is a massive metaplot infrastructure, but, it is far more 'suggestion' than WW's other products.

Still entirely true. Return of the Scarlet Empress and information on what might happen to a given area, people, etc if things continue as they are as of Year Zero does not make it a metaplot.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

There is no metaplot in Exalted.

The Scarlet Empress would beg to differ, except she never begs.

Return of the Scarlet Empress is not a book that creates a metaplot in Exalted.


As for changes in a potential third ed. Given the chances of a 3rd ed happening in the near future or even slightly distant future is not very high. I want to wait and see what fundamental changes the Ink Monkeys and ETP make before I throw out some ideas.

 

[Greenstalker]

White-wolf's D10 system (I didn't look at nWoD yet so no comment on that part) almost always fluff-oriented and never had an exact definition. In oWoD products you can even design your own skills as long as your ST said its okay to do so. As someone also pointed out in oWoD (and probably in nWoD) there were too many problems using combat forhandling situations even for werewolves who are most combat heavy products of oWoD.


Exalted by definition doesn't fit with WW's D10 system on any front. My guess is because of there is no resources (budget, manpower, time etc) but greed to get in a market they know, they can make money, WW released Exalted with a half-assed D10 system more like a product of oWoD rather than a seperate setting. Than they tried to change it by both changing some mechanics rather than system itself and some of fluff.


If WW will be releasing 3rd edition it will be one of following ways in personal opinion I prefer second one ofcourse I would like to see a different more system-oriented one myself but knowing WW it won't happen unless both Malfeas and Underworld suddenly become parts of creation.


1) It will probably looks like Scion in fantasy setting for very same reason they release Exalted in the first place; getting money without making much changes to existing system. OR


2) It will be like extended version of current system. Instead of 5 Max dots though they will make it 10 max dots for starting characters, removing (or altering) excelencies and artifacts so characters feel like real super-heroes by getting 30+ dices without need to use any mote. Turn system into Caste oriented (you get discount to purchase and use of your caste's charms) Charms rather than favorite skills/attributes. Potentially putting some other type of categorisation for certain Exalteds to get some powers (ex: Elemental Charm pools depends on your birth place for creation air,water etc, For Autochthonia oil, smoke etc; For Malfeas it depends on who exalted or corrupted you much like current system, For Underworld corrupted version of elemental charms of creation) Undead template will be introduced much like Akuma template. Like they did with nWoD there will probably be a very basic setting book and each Exalted type will have its own book instead of Solars in the first book.