Viewpoint What is 'Literate' Supposed to mean anymore

[Idea]

To be honest, I don’t like terms like “literate” either. I think they are poor descriptors born of a time when length-based elitism was more prevalent, when people would legitimately look down on others for not making huge walls of text all day.

The way it is currently used, it is indeed intended to describe people who make longer, typically multiparagraph posts (which is another term I don’t particularly like since we’re on the subject, because it means “multiple decent sized paragraphs” rather than just “multiple paragraphs”, which makes the term really imprecise in basically every instance it’s used). However, I find that the term begins to loose its meaning and purpose as more and more people use it- specifically because this often means people are doing it because it is "fashionable" rather than it being an active descriptor of their writing style. That is probably due in part to the term "literate" seemingly implying illiteracy on the part of those who don't meet it's standards. Regardless of understanding that there wasn't malice there, if the average person feels insulted for not presenting themselves in a certain way they are more likely to give innacurate information that makes them look better. I find this behavior rather unhealthy as it can make roleplays worse for everyone.

At the same time, I feel like there is very very mistaken perception that someone not wanting to write with those who don't match a certain length are looking down on those people, or are obsessed with length to the point where they think it is the end all be all of a quality post. The phrase "I prefer quality over quantity" annoys me to not end when applied in this discussion, because it implies that I would rather sacrifice quality for quantity when in fact I want length AND quality- but am willing to sacrifice the quantity of posts.

Mini-rant aside, I want to clarify: People, like myself, who demand long posts from our partners simply have different interests in the kinds of posts- and those differences are often reflected in length. It's a means to an end. Again, using myself as an example I may look at a short post and understand that for what it is trying to be it is a masterpiece. But it can still be quite boring because it is missing a lot that I value and the person who made the post likely finds superfluous.



So, long story short: Literate is a term I don't particularly like, because I think it's ineffective, and it kind or propagates some misconceptions about so-called "literate" roleplayers. All in all, I think a better term is "detailed", from "detailed/casual/simple" roleplays.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

To be honest, I don’t like terms like “literate” either. I think they are poor descriptors born of a time when length-based elitism was more prevalent, when people would legitimately look down on others for not making huge walls of text all day.

The way it is currently used, it is indeed intended to describe people who make longer, typically multiparagraph posts (which is another term I don’t particularly like since we’re on the subject, because it means “multiple decent sized paragraphs” rather than just “multiple paragraphs”, which makes the term really imprecise in basically every instance it’s used). However, I find that the term begins to loose its meaning and purpose as more and more people use it- specifically because this often means people are doing it because it is "fashionable" rather than it being an active descriptor of their writing style. That is probably due in part to the term "literate" seemingly implying illiteracy on the part of those who don't meet it's standards. Regardless of understanding that there wasn't malice there, if the average person feels insulted for not presenting themselves in a certain way they are more likely to give innacurate information that makes them look better. I find this behavior rather unhealthy as it can make roleplays worse for everyone.

At the same time, I feel like there is very very mistaken perception that someone not wanting to write with those who don't match a certain length are looking down on those people, or are obsessed with length to the point where they think it is the end all be all of a quality post. The phrase "I prefer quality over quantity" annoys me to not end when applied in this discussion, because it implies that I would rather sacrifice quality for quantity when in fact I want length AND quality- but am willing to sacrifice the quantity of posts.

Mini-rant aside, I want to clarify: People, like myself, who demand long posts from our partners simply have different interests in the kinds of posts- and those differences are often reflected in length. It's a means to an end. Again, using myself as an example I may look at a short post and understand that for what it is trying to be it is a masterpiece. But it can still be quite boring because it is missing a lot that I value and the person who made the post likely finds superfluous.



So, long story short: Literate is a term I don't particularly like, because I think it's ineffective, and it kind or propagates some misconceptions about so-called "literate" roleplayers. All in all, I think a better term is "detailed", from "detailed/casual/simple" roleplays.

In my experience it has nothing to do with post length, and everything to do with not wanting to cringe through your posts and juggle your "creative spontaneity" (random bullshit). It's about the quality of the writer, not the length of the posts. In my experience veteran players are deeply annoyed by long posts, because, put simply, we have the whole RP. You don't need to write a novella on your characters thoughts, feelings and emotions every post round. I'm sorry but we usually don't care that much. This isn't your own solo novel. Hush. It's not entertaining, doesn't improve the quality of the story, or the flow of the dialogue (RIP). It serves no purpose other than to destroy the vibe of any given scene, for the duration that scene.

 

[Idea]

It's not entertaining, doesn't improve the quality of the story, or the flow of the dialogue (RIP).

See that's where we disagree. And I entirely understand you may find those extra details superfluous and quote "pointless", but I don't see it that way, and the people I want to work with don't either. We enjoy "novella on your characters thoughts, feelings and emotions", as well as the details of the setting, and how exactly actions are performed, and even changing the very style and choice of words in such a way that reflects the character's state of mind or the direction of the scene or whatever else.

That said, the one thing you can't say is that it's purposeless. Maybe you don't value it's purpose or think we are going about it in an inefficient way. But for those of us who prefer this style of writing, it is not done without meaning.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Idea All of this can be done using medium length posts. None of it requires excessive length that bores/drains your co-writers, clouds and distracts from vital details, and can often be disruptive to scene structure.

"Short" posts are unacceptable, but length should always remain adaptive; dictated by the given scene/moment/character in question. Sometimes you have to sit a round out because two characters are having a heated, tense, wonderful argument and you can pick up again in a few posts. Graces and tactical narrative moves like this were largely abandoned in generic Rp, though. It's a me me me, my my my culture now.

 

[darkborn]

Well, time to pitch in my two cents.

Uh, yeah. I think I'll agree with most of the people here in that the 'modern' definition of literate and semi-literate is just an informal way of saying word count. However, this is where I pitch my own two cents- take it if you will. I just hope you get them with the head side facing up.

I personally think that the levels of literacy describe your grasp of grammar. Casual? (Oh, and I apologize for accidental stereotyping. ) It's more of a simple period at the end of sentence, maybe the occasional capital letter at the beginning? I can't really explain this much, because, well... I'm not that? Heheh? Semi-literate, on the other hand, is that you know your basic grammar- you capitalize the beginning of your sentence, and you put periods in. Sometimes, you'll even put commas in! This category covers lots of people, from the actual casual RPers to people who aren't that familiar with English. Yay them! They get to learn more about the horridly complex subtleties of written English! Literate is just someone who's more familiar with English- in addition to stuff with semi-literate, you also put stuff like commas and apostrophes and dashes and whatnot in much more frequently. Basically, you've got a solid foundation of writing in English- maybe you've taken English classes? Good job, you're developing an interest in writing! I hope you find it enjoyable!

...Advanced literacy? You know when to put dashes instead of commas, or vice versa for interjections; you know when to use a single ' or the standard " for dialogue; and other advanced stuff like that. Basically, you need a 36 on the English section of the ACT to do this.

Now mind you, everyone's gonna make mistakes. This is a general assumption. (One that I probably got completely wrong, but eh? I'll at least get corrected?)

Thanks for reading the opinion of a grammar cop. ._.

As for word length, well... I personally find it when people act pretentious for word length disgusting. I mean, I understand why people want word lengths, and if they request it, I won't argue. I mean, it's to ensure quality and people putting at least some effort into an RP. But when people start posting BULLET POINTED requirements that are practically a PARAGRAPH LONG, that's when I get off that RP page. I'm not here to make you feel more elitist than you already are feeling. But again, I get why people have post lengths. It's to ensure dedication. I mean, even I struggle with stuff like that. Just ask Idea about it. xD.

There's nothing wrong with requesting a detailed post. RPs are MEANT for description; after all, if you're telling a story about alternate fantasy/historical places and people, the devil's in the details. Or is it God's in the details?

 

[Idea]

Idea All of this can be done using medium length posts. None of it requires excessive length that bores/drains your co-writers, clouds and distracts from vital details, and can often be disruptive to scene structure.

Is it technically, theoretically possible to do in medium length posts? Yes.

Does it require excessive length? No. But I don't find the length I require excessive in the first place, neither do the people I like to work with. You're saying it "bores" my fellow writers, as if what bores you would bore everyone else. That it clouds and distracts from vital details, as if what you find to be vital details, or even THAT "vital detaisl" are the only thing deserving of focus was a universal, indisputable truth. As if the only way to do good scene structure was how you do it.

Don't get me wrong: I do believe there is objectively good writing and objectively bad writing. I'm not so arrogant as to believe I am some kind of authority on what is or isn't, but I do believe there is such a standard. Hence, even if I don't personally like something I can acknowledge there at least might be some really good writing there. I also acknowledge that yeah my own writing probably isn't exactly the best out there.

But RP preferences aren't about what we intellectually find to be best most refined writing. What we personally like to read and what we what we find more immersive is very important. And even if said quality was the most important thing, I don't think said quality would dismiss entirely the things I find important, much less in favor of posts I find extremely bland like reading from a shopping list or a memo. Because the logical endpoint of "only the essentials" isn't a good post, it's actual bullet point summaries.

In conclusion, is what I want out of a post possible to achieve with less length? Yes, and it's not like I've never seen it done either. But it was with exceptional people. I don't want to open the floodgates to a slew of boring RPs and having to dump my partners because our preferences don't match, when I can raise the bar and filter for consistently better RPs for me personally.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

I'm speaking objectively, in general terms now. My first post was my personal BS on the matter. I'm not presuming to know what bores your cohorts, I'm saying long, winded, overly fluffy posts do bore people. If the character is really, really good, and the player can pull this off without thousands of redundancies seeping through the ocean of paragraphs bombarding us every round, it can be great in doses, sure.

This is why I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm on the level of someone like Tolkien whilst in a group role play with multiple other central characters and a rolling post order dynamic to scene and dialogue structure.

 

[Crayons]

I personally think that the levels of literacy describe your grasp of grammar. Casual? (Oh, and I apologize for accidental stereotyping. ) It's more of a simple period at the end of sentence, maybe the occasional capital letter at the beginning? I can't really explain this much, because, well... I'm not that? Heheh? Semi-literate, on the other hand, is that you know your basic grammar- you capitalize the beginning of your sentence, and you put periods in. Sometimes, you'll even put commas in! This category covers lots of people, from the actual casual RPers to people who aren't that familiar with English. Yay them! They get to learn more about the horridly complex subtleties of written English! Literate is just someone who's more familiar with English- in addition to stuff with semi-literate, you also put stuff like commas and apostrophes and dashes and whatnot in much more frequently. Basically, you've got a solid foundation of writing in English- maybe you've taken English classes? Good job, you're developing an interest in writing! I hope you find it enjoyable!

...Advanced literacy? You know when to put dashes instead of commas, or vice versa for interjections; you know when to use a single ' or the standard " for dialogue; and other advanced stuff like that. Basically, you need a 36 on the English section of the ACT to do this.

Now mind you, everyone's gonna make mistakes. This is a general assumption. (One that I probably got completely wrong, but eh? I'll at least get corrected?)

I mean, sure, that would be a way of redefining lit/adv. lit/semi lit but this isn't the way those words are currently used. Maybe it's how they should be or could be used, but it isn't.

I think the flaw in your plan here is that it expects people to know whether they have a good grasp of grammar or not and then to accurately represent themselves. Both of which is pretty much open to the Dunning-Kreuger effect and conscious untruthfulness, unless you're going to ask people to take a test before they post.

 

[Chordling]

unless you're going to ask people to take a test before they post

There’s always a first for everything.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Okay, the word literate has nothing to do with the number of words in a body of work.

I have never seen word count requirements disguised as "Literate RP'" Never. The two are always separate aspects of a role play. I've seen one and not the other, I've seen both, but I've never seen someone set out to ask for a certain number of words per post, and call it "Literacy." Because that would be, well, illiterate.

Words have meanings, but, honestly, today's player is far from the sharpest knife in the drawer. Reality is subjective in 2020, as well. You sort of get to make it up as you go.

 

[Idea]

I have never seen word count requirements disguised as Literate RP. Never. The two are always separate aspects of a role play. I've seen one and not the other, I've seen both, but I've never seen someone set out to ask for a certain number of words per post, and call it "Literacy" Because that would be, well, illiterate.

If you didn't, then you haven't been paying attention to interest checks. For quite a while people have used "literate" as a shorthand to mean not a specific wordcount but certainly the general idea of larger posts. It's usually followed by "I write/please write 2+ paragraphs" or equivalent. There are some people who use it to mean exactly what you've been saying it is means though frankly that a minority in terms of how the term is used within the relevant context.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

The definition of a given word is always relevant. But that really says all that needs to be said on it. This is just one of the many hidden issues RP is dealing with right now. Literature is founded upon the principles of literary rules, and words having clear, coherent meanings.

We start saying Blue when we really mean Green, it all starts to lose meaning.


If you're a writer and you can't use the word Literate properly Out of Character, perhaps your true ride or die hobby is still calling out to you.


Idea Your average post lengths seem to be around the accepted average, so it's not like you need to defend your lengths, in any capacity. You seem to understand the medium norm for an average post. You had me thinking you were a novella-type by the way you described your own style and "those whom you work with" (cue X-Files theme). You might need to defend the excessive use of code at some point, but not words.

 

[Idea]

Idea Your average post lengths seem to be around the accepted average, so it's not like you need to defend your lengths, in any capacity. You seem to understand the medium norm for an average post. You had me thinking you were a novella-type by the way you described your own style and "those whom you work with" (cue X-Files theme). You might need to defend the excessive use of code at some point, but not words.

I didn't initially call myself the novella type, I just started doing it because in terms of requirements most people seemed to consider them as such, and that was back when my posts were closer to 500 something words in 1x1s.

As for the code, I'm not sure what's there to "defend". It's not like I neglect my writing for code and I usually even go out of my way to add a tab that's mostly without code. I just enjoy making those codes and seeing the final result.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

What does Literacy Mean?

Well, there are four key components.

• The ability to read any given language
• The ability to write any given language
• The ability comprehend what you are reading or writing
• Being well-versed in the rules and culture of (well-read) literature

Why Do Literacy and Post Count Have No Affect On One Another?

Literacy is a core writing skill driven by our core ability to shape thoughts into words, and words into sentences, paragraphs, chapters, etc. It's aided by things like our vocabulary and creative tastes, maturity level and many other person factors that vary from person to person. Your level of literacy defines you as a writer, because it both limits and empowers you as a writer. It's your rank, your class, your flag. It's what makes you you as a role player.

Post count is how many words you chose to commit to in a given post.

You see how one is infinitely more important and distinguished than the other? And furthermore, how confusing the two in any way, shape, or form just seems silly? Some of you still don't, so let's ask the most important question here.


Why Shouldn't I Identify My Length Requirements As "Literacy" Requirements?

Because literacy is so important. It supersedes role play at every step of the way. RP is supposed to nurture, foster, and empower literacy, not ask what it even means. Because - put so simply I feel rude about it now - you can write ten paragraphs of illiterate crap for a thousand pages in a row. You can't fake good writing. If you say Literate, mean literate...not long... Or pretty soon (not to seem even more rude) people will be asking themselves what the word literate even means anymore...



In summary: Long does not equal literate.

 

[Asteria]

I was the sort that used the term 'literate' in order to describe their style (in my mind, as I have seen it used so many times before on here and I was fairly new in the roleplaying scene, I associated it with a longer length than usual and a fairly detailed/ descriptive type of writing). I was aware of what it meant, but I thought that in RP terms, its definition was expanded and/ or changed. I did not use it to show off or to be pretentious, I just copied the writers/ partners that I came across and had a writing style similar to mine (and in all my years, I have never met someone who used the term and was actually pretentious). Now, in my search threads, I describe myself as having a "multi-para/ novella" style and I include the usual length of my posts and my requirements. And I still don't know if that is right xD

 

[Crayons]

I was the sort that used the term 'literate' in order to describe their style (in my mind, as I have seen it used so many times before on here and I was fairly new in the roleplaying scene, I associated it with a longer length than usual and a fairly detailed/ descriptive type of writing). I was aware of what it meant, but I thought that in RP terms, its definition was expanded and/ or changed. I did not use it to show off or to be pretentious, I just copied the writers/ partners that I came across and had a writing style similar to mine (and in all my years, I have never met someone who used the term and was actually pretentious). Now, in my search threads, I describe myself as having a "multi-para/ novella" style and I include the usual length of my posts and my requirements. And I still don't know if that is right xD

There's no real right or wrong, and you're right, it is part of RP culture like it or not, despite what it's origins might be. Personally I think word count or para count is a better indicator than anything else.

 

[Chordling]

In summary: Long does not equal literate

I think this is the core of the terms, at least when it comes to how it is used on the site from what I have observed. A lot of people associate literacy with length.

 

[Asteria]

There's no real right or wrong, and you're right, it is part of RP culture like it or not, despite what it's origins might be. Personally I think word count or para count is a better indicator than anything else.

I agree! As it has been said before on here, the term 'literate' is quite interpretable, while word count (which is my preference) or para count is... what it is.

 

[Phantom Thief of Hearts]

Honestly, I just think people only call it literacy because they just wanted to sound smart.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Honestly, I just think people only call it literacy because they just wanted to sound smart.

And yet it's such an asinine thing to do. The irony of misusing the word literate is just epic.

Idea I'm actually in tears, laughing now. Because like, in 2020, when the President of the United States of America struggles to read words with more than 6-7 letters, it seems like a more valid question.

What does it even mean anymore if people are using it to describe long post requirements. What happened there? People got skiddish over establishing the line between literate and shit like never capitalizing?

 

[Idea]

What does it even mean anymore if people are using it to describe long post requirements. What happened there? People got skiddish over establishing the line between literate and shit like never capitalizing?

I don't know. I never used the term in the way I see it used, like I said in my initial post I prefer to use the term "detailed" for this sort of thing (as in "detailed/casual/simple").

Either way, and this might be veering a bit off topic, but I fundamentally believe language means what it is used to mean. It's fundamentally a form of communication in the same way that money is a form of value. If money does not represent value then it's just useless metal and paper. If language does not mean what people use it to mean then it's just random noises and patterns of color.

So if people at large within a community use a word to mean something, then within that community that something is what that word means- or at least one of its meanings.

I still find it confusing and misrepresenting, but I don't think words are rendered meaningless by the natural phenomenon that is the evolution of language over time.

 

[Daisie]

Adding in my own two cents... I don't care. I really, really don't lol.
Definitions change all the time. Language - as much as we want to believe always has rigid rules and regulations - isn't always so clear-cut. In some ways it is, like when you want to take on a formal touch, but when it comes to social situations, language is much more fluid. Because no one cares. We just wanna get a point across.

A word's only purpose is to communicate a thought from one mind to another. As long as it's accomplishing that, language has and will always serve its purpose. While "Literate" has a definition that is quite different than what you see used around the RP forums, if people are accustomed to the word "literate" as to describe the post length of their RPs, and are also aware of its multiple definitions, then I see no issue with it. Cause let's not forget that this is not the first time a word has had multiple definitions. We're not idiots, we can learn both of them and move on.

Did you know that the word "jaywalking" comes from a classist slur? "Awe" used to mean fear, terror, or dread, but seldom to we actually use "awesome" to describe something that is terrifying, anymore. Or when drop an f-bomb, do you really want to have sex with the person standing across from you? Definitions of words are quite fluid, I assure you.

Not to mention contronyms: Words that are the antonyms of themselves.
To dust something can either mean to get the dust off of it... or to put dust on it.
"Dust the old shelf" or "dust the strawberries with powdered sugar"

To cleave can either mean "to join closely" or to divide.
"The shy rabbit cleaved to his mother's body" or "The rabbit meat was cleaved with a knife"

To overlook can either mean to monitor... or to... uh... not monitor.
"The cliff overlooked the valley" or "The teacher overlooked my grammar issues"

Language - English especially - is dumb.

Sure, when in a formal setting, maintaining proper grammar and English is important. It communicates a certain seriousness. However, when in a social situation, it becomes far less pertinent. As long as the idea is being successfully conveyed to the receiver, it doesn't matter what the definition used to be. Perversion has always played a significant role of every single language on the face of the Earth. When a word is derived from another, already-existing word... you guessed it, it's perversion. I see no reason to get angry over something that has been happening for thousands of years, and will continue to happen as long as humanity stands on this imperfect Earth.

Why people here have chosen "literacy" to communicate RP post length is beyond me, but far be it from me to try and control the social norms that people come up with. As humanity, we are the ones who define words. We made them in the first place, I think it's also our right to change them, so long as people understand the point we're trying to get across; when it comes to the word "literate", I think we can all agree that we know both definitions: The formal one and the social one built for RP (You make le löng 'n good grammár post). If you are reading this thread, you are acutely aware of both definitions, now. Congrats, now you either adapt to it or don't, cause humanity ain't changing for the few voices that are against it.

It's an incorrectly-used word in a small community of writers that take up the most insignificant portion of the internet. Now I can either get upset over this, or get upset over the fact that my cancer may relapse. This really has 0 bearing on my life.

Edit: I am also aware of the many grammatical sins I have commit in this post alone.

 

[Malphaestus]

Adding in my own two cents... I don't care. I really, really don't lol.
Definitions change all the time. Language - as much as we want to believe always has rigid rules and regulations - isn't always so clear-cut. In some ways it is, like when you want to take on a formal touch, but when it comes to social situations, language is much more fluid. Because no one cares. We just wanna get a point across.

A word's only purpose is to communicate a thought from one mind to another. As long as it's accomplishing that, language has and will always serve its purpose. While "Literate" has a definition that is quite different than what you see used around the RP forums, if people are accustomed to the word "literate" as to describe the post length of their RPs, and are also aware of its multiple definitions, then I see no issue with it. Cause let's not forget that this is not the first time a word has had multiple definitions. We're not idiots, we can learn both of them and move on.

Did you know that the word "jaywalking" comes from a classist slur? "Awe" used to mean fear, terror, or dread, but seldom to we actually use "awesome" to describe something that is terrifying, anymore. Or when drop an f-bomb, do you really want to have sex with the person standing across from you? Definitions of words are quite fluid, I assure you.

Not to mention contronyms: Words that are the antonyms of themselves.
To dust something can either mean to get the dust off of it... or to put dust on it.
"Dust the old shelf" or "dust the strawberries with powdered sugar"

To cleave can either mean "to join closely" or to divide.
"The shy rabbit cleaved to his mother's body" or "The rabbit meat was cleaved with a knife"

To overlook can either mean to monitor... or to... uh... not monitor.
"The cliff overlooked the valley" or "The teacher overlooked my grammar issues"

Language - English especially - is dumb.

Sure, when in a formal setting, maintaining proper grammar and English is important. It communicates a certain seriousness. However, when in a social situation, it becomes far less pertinent. As long as the idea is being successfully conveyed to the receiver, it doesn't matter what the definition used to be. Perversion has always played a significant role of every single language on the face of the Earth. When a word is derived from another, already-existing word... you guessed it, it's perversion. I see no reason to get angry over something that has been happening for thousands of years, and will continue to happen as long as humanity stands on this imperfect Earth.

Why people here have chosen "literacy" to communicate RP post length is beyond me, but far be it from me to try and control the social norms that people come up with. As humanity, we are the ones who define words. We made them in the first place, I think it's also our right to change them, so long as people understand the point we're trying to get across; when it comes to the word "literate", I think we can all agree that we know both definitions: The formal one and the social one built for RP (You make le löng 'n good grammár post). If you are reading this thread, you are acutely aware of both definitions, now. Congrats, now you either adapt to it or don't, cause humanity ain't changing for the few voices that are against it.

It's an incorrectly-used word in a small community of writers that take up the most insignificant portion of the internet. Now I can either get upset over this, or get upset over the fact that my cancer may relapse. This really has 0 bearing on my life.

Edit: I am also aware of the many grammatical sins I have commit in this post alone.

I was going to say something akin to this, though unlike Daisie, I lost the urge to. Commendations though.

 

[Phantom Thief of Hearts]

Language - English especially - is dumb.

English spelling is dumb. It's a wonder how I managed to figure it all out with my dyslexia being what it is.

 

[Phantom Thief of Hearts]

I still find it confusing and misrepresenting, but I don't think words are rendered meaningless by the natural phenomenon that is the evolution of language over time.

Again, I really do think it's just them trying to sound smart by using a word that is akin to "literature" and failing to realized that literacy doesn't mean what they want it to mean.