What if there were no DeathLords, just DeathKnights?

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

I should note this is a cross posted on the WW Exalted forums, so I've attached some more discussion on the end.


This is something that has recently piqued my interest. They are seemingly essential to the setting, so we have:


1.) The Contagion - How did this happen without the Deathlords? Could lesser servants of Oblivion pulled it off? Was it a massive chaos attack on Reality from the Fair Folk?


2.) The breaking of the Jade Prison resulting in the return of the Solars, rise of the Abyssals and Infernals:


-Could lesser servants of the Neverborn broken the Jade Prison open?


- Could Mask of Winters simply be an amazing Dusk Caste Abyssal, much like the Bull of the North?


3.) No Skullstone, or at least not the same way...


Any other thoughts on the ramifications?


Here's some further thoughts of mine:


One of the primary issues I've had with the Deathlords is as stated up seem just a bit too powerful for me, and the reasons for them not being able to annihilate creation sometimes contrived, (i.e. Falafel just sits there because his primordial master who wants to destroy everything is having a fit of pique with his servant and commands Falafel to do nothing) vs way too likely to destroy Creation withotu the PCs getting seriously uber (The Silver prince and his necrotech fleet of doom.)


Honestly, IMO, 100 Abyssals still gives plenty of evil bad guys AT the equivelant power of the PCs. That and I like the idea of MoW as an Abyssal "anti-Bull."


My thoughts on part 2, destroying the Jade Prison, I think something could be done with a Hekatonkhire are probably viable. I think not everything needs a perfect description, sometimes having a little mystery makes the players interested. As I've seen in my experience, sometimes players explanations for what is happening to them is so much better than my current plot that I"ve totally rewritten my "story."

 

[magnificentmomo]

I do like this approach to the DLs being mechanical and fluff bullshit. Not sure if I like it better than just toning down the DLs, but it is an option, and option are always good.

 

[Persell]

Then you have the problem of who captured and altered the Exaltations. The Ebon Dragon taught the Deathlords how to twist the Solar Exaltations into what they wanted, after all.


Like momo said, I'd just opt to tone down the power of the Deathlords. They're dead Primordials, they're going to be extremely powerful.

 

[Sanguine1]

Then you have the problem of who captured and altered the Exaltations. The Ebon Dragon taught the Deathlords how to twist the Solar Exaltations into what they wanted, after all.
Like momo said, I'd just opt to tone down the power of the Deathlords. They're dead Primordials, they're going to be extremely powerful.

That's the Neverborn. The Deathlords are the Ghosts of First Age Solars melded with the ghosts of Third Circle Souls of the Neverborn.

 

[Thanqol]

Honestly, my trick is just to make DLs ghosts rather than Solar+Abyssals with Essence 10 who are Better Than You. They're ghosts, they get some cool ghost Arcanoi, but importantly they're beatable by a medium essence group of Solars.


Which makes the point of how to kill them for real the crux, making the immortality their major power.


I think Mr. Chung calculated you need 5 essence 5 twilight essence reactors spending 72 ticks and crazy combo bullshit to bring down a as-statted core DL, which is pretty bad.

 

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

My thought, is if you nerf Deathlords enough, why bother even having them? Deathknights (Abyssals) still make great enemies that are far more interesting (at least to me.)

 

[Arrghus]

They're a useful explanation for certain parts of the setting before the Abyssals showed up. Using anything else to explain why stuff is like it is at the moment results in a hodge-podge patchjob at best. Of course, at some point the Abyssals should be growing strong enough to start messing with their "masters".

 

[cyl]

Try to consider the following instead: what if the Neverborn never had to make a deal with the yozis and that they already had the souls of a few dozen exalts (abyssal equivalents of the deathlords)... a few lucky bastards who escaped the usurpation and sought refuge in the second place the sidereals could not probe and would not go... the underworld. The Neverborn offered them shelter for an unholy affiliation.


Replace the deathlords by abyssals essence 10... also consider that some will maybe be less dominated by the philosophy of the Void than others (some may even be "good guys" from a ghostly point of view) and there you go.


You have all your 1-2 -3 in place, deathlords are still a bitch to kill, but they are far less all powerful and can bleed and die for real... and maybe baby abyssals can plot to take their place / have them killed.


I've always been more interested in the "champions of the dead" theme than the "evil bad guys" theme for abyssals which is a bit more subtle.

 

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Try to consider the following instead: what if the Neverborn never had to make a deal with the yozis and that they already had the souls of a few dozen exalts (abyssal equivalents of the deathlords)... a few lucky bastards who escaped the usurpation and sought refuge in the second place the sidereals could not probe and would not go... the underworld. The Neverborn offered them shelter for an unholy affiliation.
Replace the deathlords by abyssals essence 10... also consider that some will maybe be less dominated by the philosophy of the Void than others (some may even be "good guys" from a ghostly point of view) and there you go.


You have all your 1-2 -3 in place, deathlords are still a bitch to kill, but they are far less all powerful and can bleed and die for real... and maybe baby abyssals can plot to take their place / have them killed.


I've always been more interested in the "champions of the dead" theme than the "evil bad guys" theme for abyssals which is a bit more subtle.

I like this idea, except for the fact that a handful of essence 10 abyssals would break the world, many many many titimes over. Easily. I think even with the scarlet empress around, but it's still not a bad idea at all... Just needs tweaked a bit.

 

[cyl]

Well considering how the 200+ mighty solars who actually broke the world countless times got their ass kicked during the usurpation... I wouldn't be too sure about the fleeing solars becoming deathlords coming back so soon. There were still pretty of powerful DB and siddies around.


The Shogunate was strong, and it took a magical disease with a mortality rate of 80% AND a Fae invasion to make it fall... so IMO if they were to claim Creation again, Contagion + Balorian crusade would be their best course of action.


And when the Empress came back... well she had the imperial manor... THE ultimate device, not to be taken lightly, and right after that she got support from the siddies... meanwhile in the underworld the bilions dead from the contagion offered serious possibilities of expanding what influence and power the deathlords had over the Underworld.