Weapon Breaking Defense WTF!!!

Safim said:
Yes exactly' date=' yet another celestial martial art which does things better than solar/abyssal native charm set. Exactly what the game needs ^^[/quote']
Oh, no. Someone who isn't a Solar or Abyssal can do something. Who is the fanboy here? Solars and Abyssals aren't the only characters in the world, nor are they simply all powerful and better at every damn thing. They can also, horror of horrors, learn this charm perfectly fine...and with some of their own charms, do it better than just about anyone else. Their native charm set has plenty of solid and powerful charms, including the best scene long and perfect effects, some very solid social and leadership charms, the best instruction charms bar none...and much, much more. Further, breaking shit is a very traditional martial arts technique in the real world. I really don't see what the big deal is here, aside from people looking for one more thing to complain about.
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You got it wrong.


The pecking order is solars/abyssals -> everyone else. I am not disputing that other types of exalts should be able to do things, I am disputing that they should get more powerful effects, than native solar/abyssal effects.


So, elemental domination of dragon blooded is totally fine, as is the lunars being the master shapechangers. Having a celestial martial arts charm, that is simply more powerful than solar "breaking stuff" charms or abyssal "denying the opponent his weapon" charms on the other hand, is not ok.


I have no idea what scene long defenses and perfect effects have to do anything with the topic at hand. If you want to do comparisons, then look to solar craft charms or even better, the abyssal defenses, which are admittedly not out in second edition yet, but I think the charmtext alone from the first edition will be quite enlightening.
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If that's the case, perhaps we should just abolish Sidereal Martial Arts altogether, since it's obviously far outstrips venue-specific Charm trees.
 
Safim said:
You got it wrong.


The pecking order is solars/abyssals -> everyone else.
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Has someone told the sidreals this...  really someone needs to.

Safim said:
I am not disputing that other types of exalts should be able to do things, I am disputing that they should get more powerful effects, than native solar/abyssal effects.
So, elemental domination of dragon blooded is totally fine, as is the lunars being the master shapechangers. Having a celestial martial arts charm, that is simply more powerful than solar "breaking stuff" charms or abyssal "denying the opponent his weapon" charms on the other hand, is not ok.


I have no idea what scene long defenses and perfect effects have to do anything with the topic at hand. If you want to do comparisons, then look to solar craft charms or even better, the abyssal defenses, which are admittedly not out in second edition yet, but I think the charmtext alone from the first edition will be quite enlightening.
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Where do you see Solars being the masters of breaking stuff?  Yes they have a craft charm to do so, and it only works on stuff they could already break.  It also has only an excellency pre-req and is an essence 2 craft 5 charm.  Its also 1 single charm amongst a whole tree which is all about mending, strengthening, and shoring up creation against the ravages of the wyld.  With such flavor text as "the craftsmen of the unconquered sun shore up the essence of the world" its almost as if breaking stuff is counter to their purpose.  In fact even the one breaking charm in the tree says "The secrets of mending include the secrets of breaking".  Also the high craft requirement compared to the low essence requiremet kinda says to me your more relying on your ability to assemble/disassemble things then your raw golden power.  Seems more of an afterthought to me then a domain of solar power.  


Looking at the craft tree like you said has shown me yet another balance to this charm.  Both Object Strengthening Touch and Durability Enhanceing Technique can increase the successes needed to break an object.  The first by your essence for a scene and the latter by 1 permanantly.  Since weapon breaking defense does in fact require you to roll a certain amount of successes to break an item, these charms will provide a tangible defense against it.  In fact, it might almost perfectly do so, since the dragon blooded has to spend up front essence equal to the difficulty to break.  When you change this on him with a non-obvious charm...  he is going to spend 5 extra and always fail.


On to Abyssals, which I am wary to touch since their rules don't exist yet, but lets look at 1st then.  I can only assume your comments must be based on Thieving Raiton Talons, a essence 2 melee 3 that doesn't work on weapons attuned to the user.  Yes this is mostly useless against other beings of power.  Its also all by itself on a weapon summoning tree and you never have to take it, cause nothing counts it as a pre-req.  Rather a poor charm to base a statement on claiming that Abyssals are the undisputed masters of denying opponants weapons.  However, I did find a much much better one, which puts this partly martial art charm to shame.  Artful Maiming Onslaught is much much better at dis-arming an opponant then either Thieving Raiton or Weapon Breaking Defense.  You only need 3 sux to do it and inflict 2 health levels, as compared to 5 sux.  Its also going to be really hard to pull another weapon when your missing your freaking arm, not to mention this works on martial artists who fight barehanded too.  It also shows that Abyssals are much better when working with flesh then they are with stone and metal.


If any group has reason to complain about this martial art charm, its earth dragon blooded.  They already have a craft charm that does the same exact thing, except they don't have to wait for you to attack.  The rules for it are nearly copy and pasted out of Charm of Greater Unmakeing.  Talk about a martial art nudgeing in on someone's turf.  Now anyone can learn one of the Earth Dragon Blooded's best charms.  If you really wanted to balance the martial art a little, you could probably add in the rest of the rules from the craft charm its based on (doesn't work on artfiacts of a higher rateing then the dragon blooded's essence) but thats pretty much all that needs to be done to it.


All said and done, its earth dragon blooded, with their own native charms who are the masters of breaking stuff.  Its been that way since 1st, and it is a very earth elemental effect, thus one they should be best at.  Once again the sidreals screwed it up and let everyone else learn it too, but thats what sidreals do best.


-ZPE
 
Weapon Breaking Defense = object lesson to one trick combat monkeys about why being a one trick combat monkey is a stupid idea.
 
Rhapsody said:
If that's the case, perhaps we should just abolish Sidereal Martial Arts altogether, since it's obviously far outstrips venue-specific Charm trees.
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Ummm... sidereal martial arts are most of the time essence 6+, we can safely leave them out of this discussion.


And why are the solars the masters of breaking stuff?


Because their hero style says so, because their craft charms are (theoretically) without par.


@wordman: even though I agree with you, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
 
Nothing in the description of solar hero mentions anything about breaking things.  There is one charm in the style... with 1 charm prereq and low requirements that does extra damage to inanimates and one 'extension' charm in scroll of monk that adds a whole slew of damage against inanimate objects.  These charms do quite well for what they seem designed to do... punching through walls and kicking big holes in the side of 1st age vehicles.  They really aren't designed to be weapon/armor breaking charms (though against normal weapons and armor they would be quite effective I guess).


As for their craft tree... it is the best... par none...  at what its good at.  That is makeing stuff!  Sidreals have the only other craft charm I can find that allows something to be made faster.  In that case they can divide the time by their essence.  A solar can basically divide the time it takes to make something by 3 times their essence.  Not to mention with Wyld Caldron technology its more like 30 times their essence and they don't need materials at all!  Craftsman needs no Tools and Wyld Shapeing/Wyld Caldron are the entire reason the current age is bereft of flying cities and marvolous technological wonders.  Any dragon blood and even some mortals can make some of the first age wonders... but not in a reasonable time-frame.  Solar craft is awesome...  its just not focused on breaking stuff.  [sarcasm]It by that fact is not the best at climbing mountains either...  sorry once again the dragon-blooded win with their awesome craft tree.[/sarcasm]


-ZPE
 
Jukashi said:
Arthur said:
Picture it:
[solar stands on the top of his manse during the Usurpation surrounded by 5 DB and their army]


Solar: beware now, vermin, for you luck is about to change. I have with me an item so powerful that Power itself fears it, given to our kind by the Unconquered Sun himself, capable of raising or destroying empires... I present you The Crown of Thunders!!!


[DB jumps forward and crushes it]


Earth DB: where is it again?
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The Immaculate styles were only invented after the Usurpation.


:P
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That's not really the point.
 
I saw this charm, made me tempte to have my solar take it, then bone up on sorcery to get the spell which restores anything provided you have more than 50% of it, then go round breaking artifacts, stunting to I break off and keep more than half of it, fleeing then casting the spell to steal it.


btw, should this work normally vs moonsilver? sur eyou can snap a moonsilver sword in half, but wouldn't it just flow back together again?
 
Arthur said:
Jukashi said:
Arthur said:
Picture it:
[solar stands on the top of his manse during the Usurpation surrounded by 5 DB and their army]


Solar: beware now, vermin, for you luck is about to change. I have with me an item so powerful that Power itself fears it, given to our kind by the Unconquered Sun himself, capable of raising or destroying empires... I present you The Crown of Thunders!!!


[DB jumps forward and crushes it]


Earth DB: where is it again?
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The Immaculate styles were only invented after the Usurpation.


:P
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That's not really the point.
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It does however defeat your Usurpation scenario, man.
Smeggedoff said:
I saw this charm, made me tempte to have my solar take it, then bone up on sorcery to get the spell which restores anything provided you have more than 50% of it, then go round breaking artifacts, stunting to I break off and keep more than half of it, fleeing then casting the spell to steal it.
btw, should this work normally vs moonsilver? sur eyou can snap a moonsilver sword in half, but wouldn't it just flow back together again?
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Forming an Artifact out of Moonsilver gives it a fixed shape, grounding it in Creation.  You break it and it shatters, same as anything else.  Unless it was specifically made to do so, it won't reform.
Though an Artifact could be given the power to reform just to combat users of this Charm. :twisted:
 
Well then, that should teach him to go waving his sword around so carelessly like that. *shrugs* Showing off doesn't usually end well. And besides. Why wasn't the DL using Necromancy or his army of the dead first?
 
Because he didn't ever learn how to read... While MoW may have the highest circle of Necromancy, he can't actually read to learn spells. He's the special ed Deathlord. Poor him. Creation is not a politically correct place.
 
HOLD ON!!!
Where does it say MoW is illiterate?
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Where have you been since 2nd edition came out?


MoW has no lore rating in the core book which lead to the running gag, that he can't read despite being the underworld's master mind.


And to a lot of theories that he sacrificed his ability to read for some magical circle or another.


I think there is an errata now in which he can read/has a lore rating.
 
Ah.


Looked, it wasn't there.


Doesn't matter.  1E says Lore 10, so I'll just leave it that way.


Silly joke though.
 
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