Weapon Breaking Defense WTF!!!

[Persell]

Let me get this straight


A earth aspected immaculate rolls 5 succeses and then breaks ANY OFFENSIVE Artifac.t.. they should at least put a max level or some such...


otherwise WHY THE HELL was soul mirror not DUSTED when found...

 

[FluffySquirrel]

Little surprised you only just noticed ^^


But yeah.. .. oh.. and get this.. the charm designer doesn't think it's overpowered at all


Yeeeeah..

 

[cyl]

riiiiiiiiiiiiight  :lol:


Thing is, you can add a difficulty corresponding to the script immunity rating (if such thing still exist in E2, I haven't read the codex yet).

 

[Persell]

Hahahahaha... really. If that is your only problem with the dragon blooded charms in particular and the exalted charms in general you can consider yourself a lucky guy.


But on topic. Yeah, it sucks. I'd personally limit it to max level = permanent essence of charm user - 2 or something similar.

 

[Ker'ion]

I'm all for Safim's houserule on this Charm.

 

[Laundreu]

Then it's too weak.


Just rename it - Weapon-Burying Defense!  Effectively the same it's just the weapon is gone for a scene, not forever.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Odd that people throw a fit about this charm now, when the exact same charm already existed without much comment in 1E. Its not nearly as all powerful as people seem to think. Can it break close combat weapons, including artifacts? Yes. Good for it. That's all it does. Is it a useful and powerful effect? Certainly. Are there many ways around it? Surely. Spells, ranged weapons, lore charms, unarmed fighting, these all aren't affected in the slightest by the charm. Even carrying a spare weapon is pretty reasonable. Also, it gives one a reason to bother with charms like Glorious Solar Saber or Refining the Inner Blade. Artifact does NOT mean indestructible. This isn't D&D, where artifacts are special objects only destroyable with the most epic of quests. Why do you think there aren't so many ancient artifacts still around? The fact that there are methods for destroying them is certainly part of the reason.

 

[Persell]

Yeah, you as a fan of the dragon blooded had to say something like that.


It still doesn't change that its ridiculously powerful, more powerful than what solars and abyssals could do, because we all know, all abyssals could do was deattune you from your stuff while the considerably weaker dragon blooded all of a sudden can bash artifacts.


That just makes no sense.


The dragon blooded book was developed parallel to the corebook and it suffers for it.

 

[Chaka]

Think about it. Which is more powerful? The ability to break someone's artifact, or the ability to take it from them and use it yourself?

 

[Decurion]

Odd that people throw a fit about this charm now' date=' when the exact same charm already existed without much comment in 1E. Its not nearly as all powerful as people seem to think. Can it break close combat weapons, including artifacts? Yes. Good for it. That's all it does. Is it a useful and powerful effect? Certainly. Are there many ways around it? Surely. Spells, ranged weapons, lore charms, unarmed fighting, these all aren't affected in the slightest by the charm. Even carrying a spare weapon is pretty reasonable. Also, it gives one a reason to bother with charms like Glorious Solar Saber or Refining the Inner Blade. Artifact does NOT mean indestructible. This isn't D&D, where artifacts are special objects only destroyable with the most epic of quests. Why do you think there aren't so many ancient artifacts still around? The fact that there are methods for destroying them is certainly part of the reason.[/quote']
If it were trivially simple, everyone else could do it too.


And you are incorrect--the 5 magic materials are repeatedly described as "indestructible" over and over again.  The reason there are so many daiklaves lying around is that even though there were only 300 people in the First Age at any given time capable of using an orichalcum daiklave, they don't break and can't break.


What's the point of having "indestructible" artifacts of the 5 MM if they can be snapped by every fifth Immaculate out there.  You may as well have common swords.  After all, they don't cost silly amounts of background dots to have a nice one.


Further, I don't particularly think many folks would be amused if their BFS that they bought with background points got snapped in half.  Personally, I'd take it as a challenge, but I'm playing a Twilight who gets off on building toys.  I'd be really hesitant to do this casually, and only requiring 5 successes is 'casually' in my book.

 

[Persell]

Think about it. Which is more powerful? The ability to break someone's artifact, or the ability to take it from them and use it yourself?

Your reasoning is flawed, that is not a question of the ability being powerful, but the ability being useful. Being potentially able to take away an artifact is certainly more useful (ahem... well, in certain borders of course, trying to take a daiklaive from a solar surely is no easy task), but destroying something certainly is the more powerful effect.

 

[Dracogryff]

Eh, it's not like it's permanent, even...getting it back is just an Incantation of Effective Restoration away. *shrugs* I've seen the Charm fail before too. Sometimes the dice just don't roll well. It's actually the only time I've seen the Charm used, too. A phoenix was more deadly to equipment than any of the Earth Immaculates I've run into in any game.


It's certainly a nice change to see something that means you might need strategy to win instead of yet another 'I chop it in half with my Daiklaive of Conquest!' ho-hum fight.


And besides, like I said. Incantation.

 

[Dracogryff]

If it were trivially simple, everyone else could do it too.

Errr...I feel that I must point out that this is a Celestial Martial art, not a Dragonblooded Charm, and thus actually easier for anyone but a Dragonblood to learn when it comes down to it.


So it's not even an exclusive DB power thingy. It's a Celestial Martial Art thingy. It's not something oh-so-special that only DBs can do...heck, probably one in three Sidereals can do it too.


If you're gonna gripe about a DB power being overpowered...you might want to gripe about something that's theirs alone, and not learnable by anyone who's willing to put the effort into a Martial Art, people.

 

[Arthur]

Its not nearly as all powerful as people seem to think. Can it break close combat weapons' date=' including artifacts?[/quote']
Not properly powerful, but it's incoherent that there are so many artifacts still used by Anathema.


Picture it:


[solar stands on the top of his manse during the Usurpation surrounded by 5 DB and their army]


Solar: beware now, vermin, for you luck is about to change. I have with me an item so powerful that Power itself fears it, given to our kind by the Unconquered Sun himself, capable of raising or destroying empires... I present you The Crown of Thunders!!!


[DB jumps forward and crushes it]


Earth DB: where is it again?

 

[Jukashi]

Picture it:
[solar stands on the top of his manse during the Usurpation surrounded by 5 DB and their army]


Solar: beware now, vermin, for you luck is about to change. I have with me an item so powerful that Power itself fears it, given to our kind by the Unconquered Sun himself, capable of raising or destroying empires... I present you The Crown of Thunders!!!


[DB jumps forward and crushes it]


Earth DB: where is it again?

The Immaculate styles were only invented after the Usurpation.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Uhm...people, have you forgotten that this is a Celestial Martial Art? Apparently. This is NOT a Dragonblooded charm at all. Yes, its most common practitioners are Dragonblooded...who are paying through the nose to learn it. That does not mean that it cannot be learned by others. There are certainly Sidereal practitioners, and its not impossible for Solars or Lunars...to learn and do the same damn thing. This has nothing to do with me liking Dragonblooded and a lot more to do with you arguing about overpowered Dragonblooded charms that aren't Dragonblooded charms at all.

 

[Persell]

Uhm...people' date=' have you forgotten that this is a Celestial Martial Art? Apparently. This is NOT a Dragonblooded charm at all. Yes, its most common practitioners are Dragonblooded...who are paying through the nose to learn it. That does not mean that it cannot be learned by others. There are certainly Sidereal practitioners, and its not impossible for Solars or Lunars...to learn and do the same damn thing. This has nothing to do with me liking Dragonblooded and a lot more to do with you arguing about overpowered Dragonblooded charms that aren't Dragonblooded charms at all.[/quote']
Yes exactly, yet another celestial martial art which does things better than solar/abyssal native charm set. Exactly what the game needs ^^

 

[Jukashi]

I can agree with that, in a way; if anyone should have an artifact-breaking Charm, it should be the Abyssals.

 

[Flagg]

I'd like to state for the record that I think Weapon Breaking Defense is awesome.

 

[Chaka]

All the Dragon martial arts are awesome. Water especially is broken, broken fun.

 

[Persell]

For my tastes water is too boring. It is so obviously broken that anyone can kick ass with it... now celestial monkey on the other hand.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Yes exactly, yet another celestial martial art which does things better than solar/abyssal native charm set. Exactly what the game needs ^^

Oh, no. Someone who isn't a Solar or Abyssal can do something. Who is the fanboy here? Solars and Abyssals aren't the only characters in the world, nor are they simply all powerful and better at every damn thing. They can also, horror of horrors, learn this charm perfectly fine...and with some of their own charms, do it better than just about anyone else. Their native charm set has plenty of solid and powerful charms, including the best scene long and perfect effects, some very solid social and leadership charms, the best instruction charms bar none...and much, much more. Further, breaking shit is a very traditional martial arts technique in the real world. I really don't see what the big deal is here, aside from people looking for one more thing to complain about.

 

[Decurion]

Yes exactly' date=' yet another celestial martial art which does things better than solar/abyssal native charm set. Exactly what the game needs ^^[/quote']
Oh, no. Someone who isn't a Solar or Abyssal can do something. Who is the fanboy here? Solars and Abyssals aren't the only characters in the world, nor are they simply all powerful and better at every damn thing. They can also, horror of horrors, learn this charm perfectly fine...and with some of their own charms, do it better than just about anyone else. Their native charm set has plenty of solid and powerful charms, including the best scene long and perfect effects, some very solid social and leadership charms, the best instruction charms bar none...and much, much more. Further, breaking shit is a very traditional martial arts technique in the real world. I really don't see what the big deal is here, aside from people looking for one more thing to complain about.

I'd like to see a martial artist break a weapon someone else is trying to hit him with.


Arguing by real world analogy is always sketchy when dealing with Exalted, but it really falls down if you are just making crap up.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

If I expected Real World Martial Artist to do everything a Celestial Martial Artist can do, I'd be a fool. That doesn't mean that charms that can do something along a similar vein, but better aren't perfectly appropriate charms. Further...there are techniques for catching a weapon and breaking it in some styles. Are they perfect? Hell no. Neither is Weapon Breaking Defense. But such techniques do exist, and having a charm do something similar but in a more heroic mold...in a heroic game such as Exalted certainly isn't inappropriate. Having the same charm but unable to effect Artifact weapons would be essentially useless, similarly, weakening the charm as Safim suggests makes it essentially useless when one can achieve it. If one REALLY thinks it is overpowered, which I don't, perhaps a max of Essence in Artifact rating might be appropriate...but Essence -2 is certainly not, and makes the charm too weak as a Celestial Martial Arts charm that is only 2 shy of the pinnacle of its style, and which is 2 past the form charm. Further, making it a disarm charm where it is in the style would also be weak, considering that you can do the same with a Terrestrial Martial Art easilly. (See Righteous Brigarda's variant of Even Blade style)

 

[Zero-Point_Essence]

Really I don't see the problem here.  Artifacts are supposed to be kinda rare, so the whole this charm makes artifacts rare...  ok.


Solars with a high lore and a bit of Wyld can crank out an artifact a month.. and they live for thousands of years...  a few artifacts get broken.. big deal (see also Incantation arguement above).


The way some people want to make Dragon bloodeds, you may as well wait for the box set to come out and play in the first age, cause it never ended.  Dragon Bloods lost with all the proposed 'balanceing' houserules thrown around.  May as well take all their charms away, and while your at it give them 'extra' status and you can smite them without effort.


For one thing, Immaculate Monks are rather rare as it is.  Those who are that progressed in their style even more so... and when you divide it by 5 for just the earth practitioners of that level of advancement... your talking about a short list.  If you think these few martial artists are seriously impacting the artifact population of creation...  they must be really busy.


If your ST is cruel enough to break your favorite toy.. look for a way to fix it.  I lost a rather cool item my character relied on... so my character started to really brush up on his sorcery.  For more brick-headed (read Dawn) characters, maybe some cool quest to find some rare blacksmith or develop a shiney new solar craft charm to put it back together.  You could also try questing for some 'Indestructable Sword of the Dawn" type thing to replace your broken toy and end up with a cool story in the process as you try to find an artifact that is specifically immune to such charms.


Balance-wise... I dont' see any problem at all.  For one, its a Celestial charm..  lets do some quick math:


Solar Hero = Base Solar Charm, Solar Hero = Celestial Martial Art, Earth Dragon Style = Celestial Martial Art, therefore Earth Dragon Style = Base Solar Charm.


Furthermore, looking at it another way...


Earth Dragon Immaculates have 1 charm that can break Solar Artifacts.


Solars have MANY charms that break Earth Imaculates....


Seems rather balanced to me.


-ZPE