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[nonamemaddoxx]

For clarity, this is the last charm of the abyssal hero style found in the MoEP: Abyssals.


Initially I thought this charm worked like Solar Hero Form - invoke it once, then spend the mote reflexively whenever you want to use it during the scene, which did not count as a charm use. However, the Instant Duration in the charm heading confuses me, making me wonder whether that's how the charm works.


Could you guys tell me the correct way the charm works?


Thanks

 

[wordman]

Generally speaking, you can usually assume that any defensive charm listed as both Simple and Instant is some kind of typo. Because of the way Exalted timing works, "simple defensive instants" don't make any sense at all.


Everything in the description reads as if the charm works like a permanent enhancement to Dark Messiah Form. That is, once you learn this charm, you can (optionally) spend an extra tick and a point of willpower when activating the form, and then reflexively spend 1m to make perfect blocks (that also damage people in physical contact).


That is very much how it reads, which suggests that its type should really be "Permanent".


On the other hand, if that is how the charm works, it seems ridiculously overpowered; easily one of the best defensive celestial martial arts charms, and a good candidate for the best perfect defense charm in the game.


Fixalted suggests either just eliminating the charm altogether or "changing the cost to 4m, Type to Reflexive (Step 2 for defense, Step 1 for attack) and Combo-OK". While there is a case to be made for the former (perfect effects inside celestial martial arts trees almost never end well), the latter might be tolerable (though I'd raise the suggested cost to 5m, otherwise it does what Heavenly Guardian Defense does, plus a damaging effect, for the same cost. Another option would be to keep it 4m, but add a rider that the first time it is used in a scene costs an extra 1wp).

 

[nonamemaddoxx]

Thanks for clarifying, wordman.

perfect effects inside celestial martial arts trees almost never end well

Could you please provide an example, besides the charm in question?

 

[Plague of Hats]

perfect effects inside celestial martial arts trees almost never end well

Could you please provide an example, besides the charm in question?

Obsidian Shards of Infinity Form, which provides another 1m, non-Charm perfect defense. And this one doesn't cause damage, meaning that there won't be a roll-off against perfect attacks at any point. Both have their downsides, but these aren't significant enough. Generally, providing a 1m perfect defense would require concomitant downsides that make the perfect defense useless, because they should be screwing the crap out of your character. The only defensive Charm that is worse for the game is a particular Dreams Solar Charm.

 

[Smeggedoff]

I've also read an interpretation of this charm that say that the perfect defense only kicks in once when you activate the form charm, then if you wanna use it again you need to drop the form and throw it up again.


I don't subscribe to this I'm just throwing it out there.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Perhaps. But the two Celestial Martial Arts containing such (other than this horrible abomination), The Art of Relentless Persuasion and The Art of Meditative Discussion seem rather reasonsable. The Art of Meditative Discussion includes a Perfect Defense that always follows the Temperance Flaw, and costs 2 motes and 1 willpower. The Art of Relentless Persuasion includes a Perfect Attack with the same 2 mote and 1 willpower cost.


The Terrestrial Martial Art Falling Blossom, also includes an interesting Perfect Attack, costing 3 motes, 1 willpower and 1xp per use, but the xp spent on it are also spent on purchasing points in the Destiny Background, towards dying in your cause's service.

 

[Thanqol]

Who here likes stupidly overpowered Perfect Defenses? Take a look at Scarlet Patterned Battlefield, Great Thinker's Defense Maneuver.


Perfect Defense against EVERYTHING for a scene unless you are rendered unable to maneuver by surrounding foes. I.e. if six people are attacking you (which is also the maximum possible), you perfect defense against the first 5 and take a regular attack from number six. Note that being indoors reduces the maximum number of attackers at one time to -three-. Scene length. Alternatively you need a co-ordinated attack from a number of guys equal to the Sidereal's Essence, which is at least 6 with the minimums. Less than that? Then you lose. The end.


Oh, and those guys who do manage to make a regular attack on the Sidereal? You get automatically counterattacked.


So essentially, if you fight indoors, you are invincible. If you fight against less people than your Essence, then you are invincible, even if those are 3rd Circle Demons.


Bah.


VAP is another nasty one. Something does need to be done about it.

 

[Toloran]

*Stuff about Great Thinker's Defense Maneuver

A couple things to comment:


- This is a high end charm near the top of a SMA style. At essence 6, you are expected to be pulling crazy shit.


- The style can't be performed with weapons or armor. This greatly limits the damage aspect of it.


- It doesn't have an effect on mental based attacks. So even if the subject is a combat powerhouse, they can still be attacked a different way. If for some reason the siddy has some how forced you to fight him to the death and you CAN'T, then you shouldn't have got in that situation in the first place.


- Don't shrug off the coordinated attack option. If someone has access to this charm, you'd probably know it ahead of time (they ARE essence 6 after all, you aren't exactly a nobody). All you'd need is a couple extra sidekicks to get enough to reach the coordinated attack threshold.


- There is one very important line: "Opponents whose Essence is greater than or equal to the character’s consider her a valid target as normal." In other words, equal or stronger opponents completely ignore the charm.


So yeah, it's powerful but that's kinda expected at that essence level.

 

[Thanqol]

I came back to edit my post once I spotted that Greater-Essence than clause, but you got there first. That pretty much punctures my argument neatly.

 

[Malekith]

IMO, this is one of the most borked charms ever written. Simple and instant, perfect defense, yada yada.


Even this aside, its another prime example of power creep that so often infiltrates games [though WW seems to be worse than most, Vampire anyone?].


That being said, I love this silly game =P

For clarity, this is the last charm of the abyssal hero style found in the MoEP: Abyssals.
Initially I thought this charm worked like Solar Hero Form - invoke it once, then spend the mote reflexively whenever you want to use it during the scene, which did not count as a charm use. However, the Instant Duration in the charm heading confuses me, making me wonder whether that's how the charm works.


Could you guys tell me the correct way the charm works?


Thanks

 

[vegetalss4]

perfect effects inside celestial martial arts trees almost never end well

Could you please provide an example, besides the charm in question?

Obsidian Shards of Infinity Form, which provides another 1m, non-Charm perfect defense. And this one doesn't cause damage, meaning that there won't be a roll-off against perfect attacks at any point. Both have their downsides, but these aren't significant enough. Generally, providing a 1m perfect defense would require concomitant downsides that make the perfect defense useless, because they should be screwing the crap out of your character. The only defensive Charm that is worse for the game is a particular Dreams Solar Charm.

Obsidian Shards of Infinity are sidereal level not celestial level

 

[Plague of Hats]

Obsidian Shards of Infinity are sidereal level not celestial level

Ah, that's true.
Still, as mentioned, a Virtue style has one, and then there's always good, old Bottomless Depths Defense from Water Dragon.

 

[Thanqol]

Obsidian Shards of Infinity are sidereal level not celestial level

Ah, that's true.
Still, as mentioned, a Virtue style has one, and then there's always good, old Bottomless Depths Defense from Water Dragon.

It's not a real perfect! It makes you take Aggravated damage! And it costs five motes! The only real advantage it confers is flurry-immunity.

 

[Plague of Hats]

It's not a real perfect! It makes you take Aggravated damage! And it costs five motes! The only real advantage it confers is flurry-immunity.

Our definitions of perfect defense are pretty different, then.

 

[Thanqol]

It's not a real perfect! It makes you take Aggravated damage! And it costs five motes! The only real advantage it confers is flurry-immunity.

Our definitions of perfect defense are pretty different' date=' then.[/quote']
I argue this point as my Water Dragon stylist is seriously considering going 40xp off her charm path to pick up Flowing Body Evasion. I find in practice a real perfect is vastly more desirable.

 

[Plague of Hats]

It's not a real perfect! It makes you take Aggravated damage! And it costs five motes! The only real advantage it confers is flurry-immunity.

Our definitions of perfect defense are pretty different' date=' then.[/quote']
I argue this point as my Water Dragon stylist is seriously considering going 40xp off her charm path to pick up Flowing Body Evasion. I find in practice a real perfect is vastly more desirable.

That you think something different from me about a term that is not strictly, technically defined isn't really an argument.