TSJ's Tactics Thread

[Flagg]

Re: This is Retarded

Second after looking over the Players guide I figured this was a dead subject

Umm... it IS a dead subject. Take a look at the date on the post just before yours.


-S

 

[Persell]

Re: This is Retarded

it is reasonable to assume that a mortal with the right Merits and the right training by the Imaculant order or the Cult of the Illuminated could evan learn Celestial Martail Arts Charms.

Not as far as conan... um, I mean canon, is concerned. What makes it reasonable for a mortal to learn something so powerful, given that Terrestrial martial arts are way up at the top of what mortals can hope to ever achieve? (MA 5, Essence 3, plus all of the canonical flavour about enlightenment and Essence harmony).


Unless you're Sasha.


This subject is so dead... apologies for helping animate its rotting corpse.

 

[Guest]

Mortals and Martail Arts


I look at it as if Dragon Blooded can learn Celestial Martails Arts with years of Training, and a mortal with Essence Mastery can learn Dragon Blooded Marial Arts why can't a Mortal with Essence Mastery and years of Training learn Celestial Martial Arts as well

 

[Seiraryu]

Oh damn, that has got to be the densest piece of dribble I've had the displeasure of coming across.


It's very simple, Midget, very very simple:  Terrestrial Exalted are EXALTED which means that invariably they will be able to do things that mortals will never be able to do no matter how many fucking merits you give them.


With your reasoning, Terrestrials would be able to learn Sidereal Martial Arts with more years of training--but that's not the case.  It's stated explicitly in the canon that if a Dragon-Blooded is taught Sidereal Martial Arts, the practicing of such Charms would kill him in the process--implosion, explosion, corroded by his own Essence, if you need some flavor to it, apply the effects of the most davastating of the Charms on the Terrestrial and apply all Damage as automatic at its highest possible outcome.  It will invariably result in death no matter which Sidereal Martial Arts Style you choose to be so idiotic with.


Thus, from this example, we can extrapolate (as if this wasn't clear enough when they plainly said it in the canon) that beings can learn their level of Martial Arts training, and then one above.  The levels are Nothing (no charms), Terrestrial, Celestial, and Sidereal.


So, let's make this simple:


A Mortal's level, for the sake of simplicity, is Nothing.  They can learn Nothing and Terrestrial, but never Celestial or Sidereal, 'cause they'll blow the fuck up.


A Terrestrial's level is, duh, Terrestrial.  They can learn their level and one above... Celestial.  They can't learn Sidereal 'cause they will blow up.


Solars, Sidereals, and Abyssals are Celestial.  They can learn all the levels.


Lunars are the only ones excluded from Sidereal Martial Arts, for reasons that have not been stipulated, but I will point out that the exception doesn't grant further access, it restricts it.


The cusp of it all is, in essence (pardon the pun):  Mortals, no matter how much Essence Mastery they have, do not have the fortitude nor ability to manipulate, control, exercise, or develope their Essence to the point in which they would be able to reach the Celestial level (much less the Sidereal level) just like Dragon-Blooded don't meet the metaphysical requirements to learn Sidereal level.


Now, please stop saying stupid shit.  I can understand if you don't comprehend something in the books, but would you at least read them before bantering?

 

[Guest]

OK


Must of missed the Dragon Blooded can never learn Sidereal Martial Arts where is this so I can read it

 

[Flagg]

You might want to check the Sidereals book.


-S

 

[Jakk Bey]

The PG is pretty specific in the Martial Arts section.  Like, how Gods can't learn Sidereal Martial Arts.


The Gods can't learn Sidereal Martial Arts.  


Roll that around your mouth for a moment or two to get the flavor.  It's like cinnamon and cherries, with a hint of orange aspic.


The PG lays out pretty well the underpinnings of the Martial Arts tree of Enlightenment.  While I don't use Martial Arts in my games anymore, there are some Fight trees that some folks just can't learn.  The gradations of the styles I have kept--and that means that Mortals aren't learning Dragon Blooded or Solar Charms based on Brawl either. I keep the idea of some Fight trees being Universal, but I still think that Brawl and Martial Arts have no reason to be seperated. For reasons already stated, and I don't think that the discussion really needs to be dredged up again.


Suffice it to say, if you don't like it, don't eat it. Just never mind what other folks put on their plates.

 

[Skari-dono]

I think we got a little bit off topic here, with the e.g. and i.e. thing.


About the Martial Arts/Brawl bit, there are at least two solution that I know of:  One I found online and the other I made (although it is likely that someone thought of the same thing).


1)  Brawl is brutal, straight forward and prefers actual strength than agility.  Basically, kill before he reacts.  MA is swift, smooth and more agile than strong.  In short, return to your stance before your opponent knows what hit him.  The solution which is based on this is actually rather simple:  When using Brawl, let the PCs roll Strength+Brawl instead of using Dexterity.


2)  Since Brawl and MA are obviously not the same thing (if we choose to use the above definition) it should be harder to defend yourself from the other.  Give the PCs a -1 penalty when blocking MA with Brawl or vice versa.  Dodging still is unchanged since it is a completely different ability.


And of course you can use both these as your solution:  Using Strength instead of Dexterity to roll for Brawl and get -1 penalty when blocking MA attacks.

 

[Flagg]

All of TSJ's material from this thread has been added to Lore5. Please check it out and rate it there.


-S

 

[Jukashi]

A mortal could learn Celestial martial arts... if they turned into a god, and then got past Essence 5. Right?


And I wonder, would a Martial Arts equivalent to the Mantle of Brigid be sensible?

 

[Jakk Bey]

Then they'd hardly be a Mortal, would they?


And the resulting God could still not learn Sidereal Arts.

 

[Ker'ion]

Oh damn, that has got to be the densest piece of dribble I've had the displeasure of coming across.

I see you've met EM. :lol:

A mortal could learn Celestial martial arts... if they turned into a god, and then got past Essence 5. Right?

And the resulting God could still not learn Sidereal Arts.

That's not really the point.  And personally, I think that allowing a normal mortal, even one with the ability to use essence, to go above Terrestrial MA is ludicrous.  Mortals are not SPBs and, unless gifted by a higher power or exalted, don't mean squat in the normal routine of the second age.


I wonder if they could make a mortal MA tree or other mortal trees.  Something weak like only being able to augment the roll with dice equal to their virtues.

And I wonder, would a Martial Arts equivalent to the Mantle of Brigid be sensible?

Sounds nifty.  Time to pull out the artifact creation rules.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Ker'ion--When I tweaked the Fight rules for the Long Second Age, I did address issues for Mortal Fighters.  My idea was to include Techniques, which are essentially expanded Specialites, to give a Mortal a chance to learn to cause Lethal damage bare-handed, snatch arrows from the air, and otherwise get a wee bit of dap, without tapping into mystic forces.  


They are in Lore5 now, if you want to check them out.

 

[Ker'ion]

Thanks, Jakk

 

[Flagg]

Jakk - Since importing TSJ's "Tactics" stuff into Lore5 was relatively painless, do you have any desire for me to do the same with your "Fight" and "Firearms" stuff, or would you rather it left as an "Article"?


-S

 

[Jakk Bey]

Still--Since it's part of the Long Second Age Setting, it's probably better to keep it all together.

 

[Flagg]

No worries, then.


-S