Tree-totem Lunar?

[Gamage]

@rattleingpython


Everything you've said assumes something. everything I have said I have backed up with definitions and direct quotes from the MoEP. So give me an example, have you seen any comics in any of the exalted books showing a lunar that doesn't have an animal as a spirit shape? I don't take you seriously at all. You assume that stating so and so knack expands your spirit shape options is redundant. If it were it would not be stated in the two knacks, but rather said before the list of knacks. Something like "knacks expand the list of options for a spirit shape". I see that nowhere. Come back when you have some sort of text or a picture from one of the exalted books backing up your claims.

 

[Dracogryff]

Actually, p. 127 of MoEP Lunars (last paragraph on the page) states:

Players may only choose creatures that are valid targets for the sacred hunt as a character's spirit shape.

Python is saying that this line should supersede the fact that only two knacks state expanding spirit shape possibilities, since many knacks (including the plant one) expand valid targets for the sacred hunt. However, none of them, save Humble Mouse and Towering Beast actually say that they expand spirit shape possibilities.


And the above paragraph on p. 127 does go on to state:

In order to create a character with a mouse or yeddim totem, the character must take the appropriate knacks (see p. 131).

So, in essence, it does then also, again, imply that only the ones that state they expand it for Spirit Shapes do so.


It's all in what you want to assume, in the end. Whether p. 127's paragraph supersedes (and makes redundant) the line in Humble Mouse and Towering Beast, or whether the lines in Towering Beast and Humble Mouse supersede the implication on p. 127 that all you need to do is make it a valid target for the sacred hunt to be able to take it as a Spirit Shape.


Personally, I believe the INTENT was that only Humble Mouse and Towering Beast expand Spirit Shapes. I also don't think that any Lunar really should have more than an Essence 3 right at the moment of Exaltation, outside of REALLY extenuating circumstances (they were already a Terrestrial Martial Artist or Sorcerer, perhaps), so really don't think having a plant totem is very viable. This doesn't mean that if someone didn't give me a really, REALLY good reasoning and explanation, I wouldn't bend rules to let someone be a Treant or something, but...generally, I'd say stick to animals.


And I'd NEVER allow someone to take a Elemental, Demon or Human (unless I actually decided to try having fun with 'Humanity Dies,' though I still can't find a single errata reference stating that it isn't possible to Exalt animals with a Lunar Shard...anyone got a page ref?) as their spirit shape. *shrug*

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Actually, p. 127 of MoEP Lunars (last paragraph on the page) states:
And I'd NEVER allow someone to take a Elemental, Demon or Human (unless I actually decided to try having fun with 'Humanity Dies,' though I still can't find a single errata reference stating that it isn't possible to Exalt animals with a Lunar Shard...anyone got a page ref?) as their spirit shape. *shrug*

Honestly I can't imagine how they can even errata "Humanity Dies." It's a plot hook and campaign idea. If the ST decides to use it, all the Errata in the world won't stop her. If she doesn't run that campaign there won't be any animal lunars. The idea that somebody felt the need to counter it reeks of badwrongfun to me.

 

[Plague of Hats]

The errata isn't there to tell you how to play your game at your table. It's there to tell you what the game line itself is written to convey. This is just as flexible as whether or not Dragon Kings can Exalt, or if someone can invent a de-Exalting machine.


Except, of course, that it is also there to tell you exactly how to play your game, if you want to stick strictly to canon. The sidebar is helpfully there to avoid an hours-long argument over the vague status of a contentious storytelling suggestion.

 

[Persell]

So Quasi related question, if you had a first age lunar and their totem animal was wiped out in the primordial war how would that work what type of knacks would you use to express that?

 

[Mr. S]

if you had a first age lunar and their totem animal was wiped out in the primordial war how would that work what type of knacks would you use to express that?

I don't see why you'd need any extra knacks for that.

 

[Virjigorm]

I used an NPC once who was an intelligent Haltan ata-animal who exalted Changing Moon and picked up a Human spirit shape. It worked just fine and was an interesting background character. I don't see why anyone would feel the need to write a sidebar about the topic, really. Maybe just a slacker trying to up their word count. :|

 

[Teln]

It's not even a proper sidebar. It's just "Can animals Exalt? No."

 

[Dragonmystic]

I'm surprised it hasn't been said before, but....


IMMA TREE!




I don't see anything inherently wrong with being able to have a flora-based spirit form, it's part of Creation to begin with, and Lunars examplify that.


What I do find problematic is that trees don't exactly move a whole lot, so you're not going to be able to take your true form a lot. . .

 

[DasDom]

Makes for awesome Warform though...I want to play a Mushroom Lunar :-)

 

[Joni-san]

I'm sorry, but your princess is in another castle.

 

[Josh the Aspie]

I think it is important to point out that while "may only" acts as a permissive phrase in some limited circumstances, it is primarily a restrictive phrase,.


For example, take the following set of statements regarding eligibility for a government tax writeoff.

You may only claim if you buy a car with 60 highway mpg,


You may only claim if you buy a car made in America,


You may only claim if you buy a car with an Antilock Brake System and Traction Control.

In this case it is clear that the tax write off is only available if you buy an American made car that gets 60 hwy mpg, and has ABS and Traction Control. Further, even though it is not explicitly stated otherwise, if this is a law passed by the US federal government regarding US government taxes, it only applies to you if you would otherwise pay taxes to the US Federal government. This would have no effect on taxes paid to Spain.


If there are other restrictive phrases or definitions in play, then the phrase

Players may only choose creatures that are valid targets
for the sacred hunt as a character’s spirit shape.

Does not over-ride these restrictive phrases, it simply provides an additional restriction.


If, however, there are no other restrictive or permissive phrases in play, the phrase "may only" acts as both a permissive phrase and the restrictive one. In this case it acts as the phrase "You may do x. X is the totality of what you may do." Where x is something permitted.


-----

At the moment of Exaltation, a Lunar gains her first


animal shape. This is the character’s spirit shape, reflecting


the character’s nature and temperament.


...


Players may only choose creatures that are valid targets


for the sacred hunt as a character’s spirit shape. In order to


create a character with a mouse or yeddim totem, the character


must take the appropriate Knacks (see p. 131).

This states that a Lunar gains a spirit shape. It states that this shape is an animal form. It states that for a lunar to possess an animal shape, the lunar must be able to target an animal of that kind with the sacred hunt.


This then reiterates the requirements for taking two types of animal shapes, and provides a reference to where the rules for it can be found.


Thus the list of valid spirit shapes for a lunar is the list of the animal forms that the Lunar may choose to hunt.


In a book the size of the Manual of Exalted Power: Lunars, reiterating basic facts that are likely to impact new and experienced players adds clarity for said players and helps them to build their first few characters. In many cases, a new player will begin playing their first character before they have read the entire rulebook. I have actually played with players that have never made their own characters, but just asked for different options to be included when others build the character.


As such, I see no problem with the concept that a set of statements reiterates something that has already been stated. This redundancy of basic information helps to reduce it's loss when transmitting it to those most likely to loose the most information, those new to the game.


Also, errata has been provided specifically due to Lunars with Tyrant Lizard forms. This errata did not simply give a clarification stating that Tyrant lizard forms were illegal, but rather nerfed a charm that Tyrant Lizard Spirit Forms were able to abuse. This would seem to indicate that a Tyrant Lizard spirit form is a valid one.


TLNR: It says you take an animal form as a spirit form, and to take an animal form it has to be a valid target for the sacred hunt. This does not mean that if it's a valid target for the sacred hunt it's an animal form/can be taken as a spirit form.


-----


But then, I'm entirely fine with house rules that help people have fun. ;P