Top 10 fixes you'd like

[Gylthinel]

Hi,


Me and mine are attempting to compile a list of the top 10 things that need fixing in the mechanics of Exalted. What would you put on your top 10 list? A few of mine include:


* Essence ping


* charm timing


* mote/willpower attrition systems.


* so many rolls, so few actions


* too many dice


* perfects


* Extreme lethality


* various balance issues w/ charms and artifacts


And of course...


* social combat


* mass combat


But those are low priority for me.

 

[Brickwall]

...is there anything NOT on your list? Seriously, if you 'fix' most of those problems, you're playing some other game that's a lot like World of Darkness (unless you also get rid of the 'extreme lethality', in which case you're playing World of Darkness for people who don't like this silly 'death' thing).

 

[IanPrice]

When I played 1st ed, we ended up needing a lot of hacks. But with 2nd ed, the only hack that's seen play in my group so far (though many have been suggested and ultimately discarded) is that the 1st excellency simply adds to the dice pool to calculate the DV, rather than being rolled when added to defense.


When I run it in a long campaign I plan to start in a few months when a World of Darkness game I'm running ends, I may be adding a hack onto social combat which increases its meaningfulness. I don't believe the engine is broken - it's just not tricked out enough or set on a course. (I posted this idea in these two posts in another thread) I might end up doing a similar addition to the Mandate of Heaven rules for that game's purposes. Once again, I don't dislike what's there, so much as what's not.

 

[Gylthinel]

...is there anything NOT on your list? Seriously, if you 'fix' most of those problems, you're playing some other game that's a lot like World of Darkness (unless you also get rid of the 'extreme lethality', in which case you're playing World of Darkness for people who don't like this silly 'death' thing).

Not that I'm arguing with your points above, but your post is useless and has no bearing on my question. Please PM me rather than derailing the thread.


edit: pressed submit too soon!


Ian: I wish you the best of luck in reviving social combat.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Not that I'm arguing with your points above, but your post is useless and has no bearing on my question. Please PM me rather than derailing the thread.
edit: pressed submit too soon!


Ian: I wish you the best of luck in reviving social combat.

So only people who agree with you on your thoughts are to respond? I don't think so. That's not how forums work. Frankly...if you're going to entirely rebuild the entire game into something else...


As for specific responses to your own comments...


Essence ping:


What is wrong with this, exactly? It means those with greater supernatural power and enlightenment are more dangerous in a setting where this is supposed to be the case. Why is this a problem, exactly?


Charm timing: What about charm timing is the problem that you feel needs fixed exactly?


Mote/Willpower attrition systems: The purpose of both of these is to limit resources and cause some tactical thinking and conservation of power. I don't see how this is a bad thing. If you don't include such...well. Things will quickly become quite boring as people endlessly use their most powerful techniques.


So many rolls, so few actions: Frankly...I haven't seen this problem...at all. You take an action. You roll. That's...about it. There's damage rolls after attack rolls, and rarely rerolls or opposed rolls, but 95% of the time, one action, one roll. That doesn't really seem like too many rolls to me.


Too many dice: Why is this a problem? For that matter, simply use the 2nd Excellency, if you wish to avoid rolling too many dice.


Perfects: What is the problem with these, that makes you feel they need fixing? Are they too perfect, not perfect enough, do you feel they should be removed entirely?


Extreme Lethality: I'm afraid I've not really seen this issue. Even in Heroic or Enlightened Mortal games. I've had less deaths in Exalted than in any other system I've run or played but Star Wars games. And those only due to 'spend a Force point to not die'... With Exalted, while we have had some deaths...it's been a lot less common for player characters than in many other systems. The only worsening of lethality I've seen is the lack of ability to raise the dead...which is thematically inappropriate.


Various balance issues w/charms and artifacts: This is a lot more than one thing...and you'll have some form of balance issue so long as you have charms and/or artifacts. If people have options, there will be better or worse choices.


Now, if I were to compile a list of things that need fixing...it'd be more like the following:


A rewrite of Sidereals, specifically their charms and Astrology. In 1E Lunars needed such, and for 2E they got it. Sadly, the Sidereals did not.


A balancing of basic weapons, so that those of a specific resources or artifact cost were more similar in power to each other.


Changing the cost of core Artifact Armor to somewhat lower to balance it with comparable artifact ratings.


None of these require more than a few house rules. For some specific games I've certainly made a good bit of house rules, but those are generally setting specific, and most the 'fix' rules I put in for a bit...are now current Errata, so no long house rules, but the rules of the game. Is everything perfect? No. Neither is any other game. But the game isn't the broken mess that some players seem to think it is.

 

[IanPrice]

I admit to, off and on, thinking perfect defenses are too perfect, and should be held to the Unstoppable Force/Immovable Object rules. Perhaps all perfect defenses get bonus successes on that roll equal to Essence, but still, remove the "defense trumps offense" assumption.


Then again, perfects cost motes, and have flaws (both inherent and explicit). There are enough ways around them that I never quite get around to making the move to nerf them in my games.

 

[Tadanori Oyama]

I'd like to see some sort of middle of device for defenses between normal boosts and perfect defenses. Maybe a narrower application of charm to deflect specific attack or damage types. Those may already exist, I don't know.

 

[cyl]

Well I am with LK with most of his thoughts, but can add my own to give more brains to the cause.


Charm timing: I think after a few years of STing exalted, a good decision / mod is to drop the charm activation restriction and the combo thing. Takes care of almost everything... no more charms, all are innate powers and can be stacked as long as you have motes. I have not tested it yet, but I shall give you feedback soon.


The ink monkeys are apparently going in that direction too judging by the number of permanent charms they are spawning.


Extreme Lethality: as a ST I have seen this issue too many times. You cannot bring out the big guns on your group unless you are prepared to see one of them die... you will never make a pc who can use his goremaul almost as efficiently as the pc weilding his grand klave can... and the reason for this is roughly the same as LK pointed out in his Basic Weapons Chart problem... some artifacts break the games as easily as bones.


However a solid fix for armor and soak, and you would be rolling just fine. My epiphany came with a post soak hardness for artifact armors (Starmetal gave me the idea).


However I do regret a disregard for three very essential yet poorly treated aspects of the game: Debates, Battles and Wars, and Realm Management.

 

[Gylthinel]

So only people who agree with you on your thoughts are to respond? I don't think so. That's not how forums work. Frankly...if you're going to entirely rebuild the entire game into something else...

The point of the thread is to get your thoughts on things that should be fixed, not defend my position on why I think things need fixing. Especially since I've posted on most of these issues before, so I don't really think it'd be constructive to do so again. There's a billion posts about ping and perfects, social and mass combat. Perhaps the only thing I posted that isn't a pretty popular conversation topic is the "too many dice" issue, which is entirely personal to me and how I like things to flow.


I don't ask that you agree, only that you answer the question asked rather than threadcrap.

I'd like to see some sort of middle of device for defenses between normal boosts and perfect defenses. Maybe a narrower application of charm to deflect specific attack or damage types. Those may already exist' date=' I don't know.[/quote']
I think this sort of middle ground could (possibly) tackle the PD issue. Thanks for the constructive input!


Ian: I too haven't nixed perfects from my game, or even modified them to any meaningful extent. You didn't because you think they're just barely close enough to ok. I didn't because they're thematically too important to nerf. Tricky stuff.

 

[Thanqol]

Flaws of Invincibility are boring. Making them interesting would make the whole PD malarkey yonks better for me.


Preferably, every character having a unique flaw, which I'm going to playtest in my upcoming game.

 

[IanPrice]

Too many dice for your tastes: do what L5R does and cap dice pools at a level you like (L5R does it at 10), then make everything above convert to automatic successes at a certain rate (say 1 per 3 dice, unless improved with charms).


On perfects: I admit that I absolutely love the element-themed flaws of the unassailable body of (element) defenses employed by Terrestrial Dodge. Also, upon consideration, I'm going to be applying the caveat "uses normal unstoppable force/immovable object rules, gaining (Essence) bonus successes on the roll" to all perfect defenses with a duration greater than instant. While I like that those upgrades exist, I do not believe I want them to be truly perfect, and wish to force more motes to be spent to acquire true invulnerability against individual terrifying attacks.

 

[Mr. S]

Man, I'm going to take a lot of crap for this, but I just don't like Abyssals. I'd rather just pretend they don't exist.

 

[cyl]

That's intriguing... why is that ? :|

 

[IanPrice]

Though I'm inclined to take the setting as it is Mr. S., I do sympathize. I tend to prefer players not be Abyssals, though there are a narrow few concepts I can enjoy. Unlike Infernals, who should never have been written up as PCs, with half their fluff contradicting the other half.

 

[Mr. S]

That's intriguing... why is that ? :|

To some degree they step on the infernal toes, but honestly I just think it's because I don't like the aesthetic. Besides, a lot of the things that abyssals do could be done with nemissaries or other ghost types.

 

[Brickwall]

That's intriguing... why is that ? :|

To some degree they step on the infernal toes

You do realize that Abyssals came first, right? Infernals were a relatively late addition to the Exalted universe. Notice how they're not even in the corebook?


Not that I care that you like Infernals better than Abyssals, but just so you know who's standing on whose toes here. :wink:


Anyway, I do actually have some things I would like to see fixed in Exalted. For one, I'd like to see Stamina and Resistance get some more love. You could play the biggest, toughest, nastiest thing ever and nobody would ever know that you're actually working with 1 Stamina (unless you're a Lunar). Resistance is much better, but in the arms race of damage dealing versus damage resisting, damage resisting loses. It loses HARD. I am talking purely in terms of magic, in this case. Resistance as a mortal ability is pretty fair, if you have an ST who bothers with enduring the environment, disease, or poison. It'd be nice to see the difference between heroes who have basic toughness and those who have heroic toughness.

 

[Mr. S]

Yeah, but infernals are cooler...


As an actual fix, I feel like a lot of non-combat skills lack real charm trees. There's tons of charm possibilities, but they simply don't exist in printed books.

 

[IanPrice]

Yeah' date=' but infernals are cooler...[/quote']
Ugh. No. They're giant mary-sues, in a setting where everything is so over the top that shouldn't be possible. How do they manage it? Because they were written as pure pandering to a vocal subset of the fanbase.

 

[Brickwall]

To avoid a discussion about Infernals that doesn't belong in this thread, I'd like to say that a discussion about Infernals doesn't belong in this thread. I was just making an aside because I thought the particular wording amusing.


Also, yes, Social Charms need to be more. Then again, that might be easier with an actual social combat fix, so...

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Yeah' date=' but infernals are cooler...[/quote']
Ugh. No. They're giant mary-sues, in a setting where everything is so over the top that shouldn't be possible. How do they manage it? Because they were written as pure pandering to a vocal subset of the fanbase.

Can you elaborate in another said because as is. Either you are completely mis using the term mary sue or you're reading a different Infernals book than the one I have.

 

[Kyeudo]

I think it may be because the 50 Infernals are all mortals thrown suddenly to greatness after abject failure, gifted with the power of the greatest beings in the Exalted Universe and granted control over the resources of at least five Primordials, which, given the five Primordials that they are, is dang well everything in Hell. They are peers with Third Circle Demons and charged with an impossible task that they will accomplish if given half a chance because doing the impossible is just what Solar-class Exalts do.


Solars don't get half as much love.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

I think it may be because the 50 Infernals are all former heroic mortals thrown suddenly to greatness after abject failure

Fixed.Greatness is a bit subjective here. They are far more than what they once were. But certain of any success? Not at all.

gifted with the power of the greatest beings in the Exalted Universe and granted control over the resources of at least five Primordials, which, given the five Primordials that they are, is dang well everything in Hell.

Character creation really needed to give Infernals more of something along the lines of stuff loyalist Abyssals get to represent the sort of material assistance Yozis provide. And while not something to underestimate. Gaining the resources of the Ur-Losers of the game setting isn't exactly "Mary Sue" ism.

They are peers with Third Circle Demons and charged with an impossible task that they will accomplish if given half a chance because doing the impossible is just what Solar-class Exalts do.
Solars don't get half as much love.

Doesn't make em Mary Sue's. And of course Solars don't have that sort of built in support structure.

 

[Brickwall]

Guys, I already said you should move this to another thread. Seriously, you're not even discussing the mechanics of Infernals. This discussion belongs in Blessed Isle or Threshold, and in its own topic.