The Bronze faction wanted the Tepet to fail?

[Sorrow]

Ok in CotI page 55 the backround of a sidereal(named Rol) of the inner circle is explained. All seemed ok till i read the part about his medling in the Tepet vs Bull of the North war.


"Tepet's recent defeat was some of Rol's finest work. In his mind the defeat of of one of the 11 Great Houses works toward the Gold faction goal of ridding the realm of the dragon blooded, while the Bronze Faction was pleased that the legions defeat would strengthen the other houses in their drive for the Scarlet Throne."


Am I reading right? The Bronze faction wanted the Tepet to loose? And actually helped them to do so? Why? Loosing some realm legions and allowing a solar to establish his own kindom is the idea the bronze faction has for furthering their cause? Are they that dump?


Thankfully this is a part of the book that can be very easily ignored and maybe I am making a bit too much fuss about it, but still they should give it some more thought before writing these things.


What do you think about this all?

 

[Persell]

Meh, you take one house as too important. The bronze faction has the whole of creation and the realm in mind. If they need to kill of a house and a few thousand of soldiers to prevent some people they don't see fit for ruling the realm from getting on the throne they will do it. And getting them killed by the bull is as good a way as any other.

 

[Flagg]

Am I reading right? The Bronze faction wanted the Tepet to loose? And actually helped them to do so?

I don't see where it says they helped. It just says they were pleased.


-S

 

[Sorrow]

"kill few thousand soldiersâ€

 

[Flagg]

I still don't see how the Bronze Faction "helped".


-S

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Picture this:


 It's been a year since the Empress disappeared. The cracks are starting to show in the Realm, as the Houses subtly flex their muscles as they ponder the future without Caesar...ahem, the Empress at the reins.


 The Tepet legions were blown away, forcing the other Houses to realize that something out there was capable of doing the same to them--should they get too frisky and kick off a no-holds-barred civil war.


 An outside threat is a wonderful thing to hold the Realm together; the BF is trying to foster a rebellion in Harborhead, for that very same reason.


 Now, imagine what might have happened if the Tepet legions had returned, triumphant, possibly having made Halta a new Realm 'ally' as well. They were one of the stronger Houses before, and with their victory, may have been inclined to force the issue on the succession...

 

[Hanat-Osul]

However despite that, the Tepet weren’t going to claim the scarlet throne more than anybody else would and since the sidereals don’t consider anyone else worthy I don’t see why the Tepet needed to be specifically prevented from taking the Throne. Or why there wasn’t any other way to prevent them from taking it.

There's a great bit in Aspect Book: Air from the POV of General Arada, the Wind Dancer, wherein he deduces that he and the Tepet legions were dispatched to the North to fight the Bull so that he, Arada, could not claim the throne.


It's a cool idea.

 

[wordman]

Losing against a solar is not something they should be pleased with.

It is if it motivates the realm to unify, refocus on the anathema or bring the Wyld Hunt back to full strength.

 

[Sorrow]

Picture this:
 It's been a year since the Empress disappeared. The cracks are starting to show in the Realm, as the Houses subtly flex their muscles as they ponder the future without Caesar...ahem, the Empress at the reins.


 The Tepet legions were blown away, forcing the other Houses to realize that something out there was capable of doing the same to them--should they get too frisky and kick off a no-holds-barred civil war.


 An outside threat is a wonderful thing to hold the Realm together; the BF is trying to foster a rebellion in Harborhead, for that very same reason.


 Now, imagine what might have happened if the Tepet legions had returned, triumphant, possibly having made Halta a new Realm 'ally' as well. They were one of the stronger Houses before, and with their victory, may have been inclined to force the issue on the succession...

Well I have to say this reasoning has quite some merit. But still it doesn’t  completely convince me that the sidereals should be pleased with the loss of Tepet legions and the consolidation of Bulls power.


The realm didn’t need the Bull to realize it is not unstoppable, it already had some experience with scavenger lands to whom it lost 2(or was it 3?) times.


Even if the Tepet had won it doesn’t mean they would have forced the issue on the succession (especially after taking heavy losses) and the sidereals could have easily prevented them from doing so.


In addition the fact is that the loss of the Tepet legions didn’t unite the realm so nothing to be happy about here.


All that said I am surprised that so many people find it natural that the Bronze faction should be happy about the loss of the Tepet legions…

 

[Sorrow]

Losing against a solar is not something they should be pleased with.

It is if it motivates the realm to unify, refocus on the anathema or bring the Wyld Hunt back to full strength.

But... it didn't do any of the things you mention, did it?

 

[Silence In Daylight]

The last failed attempt at the Scavenger lands was something like two hundred years ago; it's not something that's fresh in the minds of the seniors that survive to this day.


 You addressed your own point #2--if the Siddies didn't want Tepet to force the issue of the succession, they could easily do something about it.


 They did. In advance.


 Instead of viewing the loss of the Tepet legions as not having accomplished anything--unifying the Realm, strengthening the Wyld Hunt, and worrying more about the Anathema, look at it from the other side:


 What might have happened without their loss?


 Could the war have kicked off already, as some House (or coalition of Houses), fearing that Tepet has become too powerful, launches a pre-emptive attack? In that case, none of the Houses would devote any resources towards the Wyld Hunt or pay any attention to the Anathema--they're too busy trying to survive the bloodletting. And then, the weary survivors clamber onto the Scarlet Throne, just in time to watch the Solar legions and Lunar hordes swarm the Blessed Isle.


 Do the same thing the Siddies did before they instigated the Usurpation: map out possible routes. Then choose the path that leads to the least detrimental of all possible worlds--viewed from that moment.


 Could the current setting result in a worse future for the BF than one where the Tepet legions triumphed? Very possibly. But would the Siddies know that now? [snorts]

 

[wordman]

But... it didn't do any of the things you mention, did it?

...yet.

 

[Hanat-Osul]

All that said I am surprised that so many people find it natural that the Bronze faction should be happy about the loss of the Tepet legions…

Then you don't understand the Sidereal mentality.  Remember, their charge is the whole of Creation.  Ensuring the stability of the Realm is the best way to ensure the stability of the rest, and if letting 10,000 men die serves that end, they'll do it.  Remeber: they killed the Solars.  The First Age Solars - the most powerful, enlightened beings they had ever known.  


The other thing you're not taking into account: the Sidereals' judgment is flawed.  If letting the Tepet legions die turns out to be for the worse in the long run, just remember their particular flavor of the Great Curse.


And fuck, if something in canon makes you batty, edit it out.  You're the ST.

 

[Djalan Pride]

if i remember right, didnt they lose a siddie or two inthat war? something like the Bull killing one with a single arrow after they blew up a town?


that would not make them too happy, as far as i could tell.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Finding the silver lining, perhaps?


 'We lost an operative, but everything else is still going to plan...'

 

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Finding the silver lining, perhaps?
 'We lost an operative, but everything else is still going to plan...'

That's exactly how I figured it... Given that they lost 2 members, and that's not something the Sids take lightly given that there are so few of them.


I think they probably had some master plan, it failed, and then they decided it was part of their plan all along.

 

[Persell]

Finding the silver lining, perhaps?
 'We lost an operative, but everything else is still going to plan...'

That's exactly how I figured it... Given that they lost 2 members, and that's not something the Sids take lightly given that there are so few of them.


I think they probably had some master plan, it failed, and then they decided it was part of their plan all along.

Must not even be a failure. Could be some plot of the gold faction to get rid ot some newly indoctrinated bronze faction guys, too. "we didn't kill them, it was the bull of the north!

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Finding the silver lining, perhaps?
 'We lost an operative, but everything else is still going to plan...'

That's exactly how I figured it... Given that they lost 2 members, and that's not something the Sids take lightly given that there are so few of them.


I think they probably had some master plan, it failed, and then they decided it was part of their plan all along.

 They only lost one--they sent two, and the second retreated after the other was slain by Yurgen.

 

[Sorrow]

http://forums.white-wolf.com/viewtopic.php?t=46002


Post 8, point 5.


NOOOOOOOOOOO! I was wrong...


It doesn't matter I shall assasinate the author and restore my honour. :x  


Strange, I always thought that the Bull defeating the Tepet legions was a bit too much.


However if the sidereals wanted the Tepet to fail it makes more sense...

 

[Forn Clakes]

Well, there you go.


~FC.