Solar Martial Arts Help?

[Andoriol]

I think everybody can empathize with the painful crux of the solar exalted: they're supposed to be uber. You don't own all the splat books so I'll let you in on a little secret: they're actually pussies.

This, I already knew. Fluff treats them as ass-kick, but since everything else comes out after them, everyone else is more badass than they are. I got that. I'm trying to fix a particular problem that I've been having stylistically with these.

Anyhoo, I'll address the 2 points you made that I find most pertinent:
(1) SHS is attack only. True, but again, this is the only power that a solar needs from the martial art. I understand that you're wanting a certain flair with your martial art. In my opinion, flair comes more from stunts than from charms (again, opinion!). I also think you're over-simplifying the potence of a solar's defense ability. If he's unarmed, using SHForm, and has maxed out dots, that gives him a decent 6 for his parry value. Pump him up with that 4 dot solar hearthstone and you're up to 8. Heck, you could stick with Infinate Martial Arts Mastery, and could simply use excellencies to make your PDV high. High PDV catches a goremaul and palms a shuriken. Meaning, a perfect parry is not the ONLY parry. Besides, a perfect parry catches a fireball, or palms the claws of a 50' titan. Both of these could be achieved with Adamant Skin, and an appropriate stunt (which would probably garner you 1-2 dice, refunding you for most of the motes spent on the charm. Hssa). So this segues back to my general thesis that you can get what you want from the RAW charms.

Okay, let me blow this out with a couple things, problem one is that it's not just having a high PDV, it's having a Perfect one. Also, note this: I said catching the shuriken, you're going back to Soak, something that doesn't apply to that stuff. Another is this:


You can't stunt Soak.


CAN'T.


AT ALL.


There is no stunting Soak.


There's also this: If I perfect Soak that Siddie MA, (I catch his fist in my palm) I don't take damage, but other bad things (Trademark'd) happen. But if I don't want to risk that and thus deflect it by grabbing their forearm, or tapping their hand up, or anything really other than taking it or outright avoiding it... what am I going to do to be sure? I can't throw more dice at it, I'm already throwing as many dice as I can, I can't risk Soak because there's extra bad stuff that might happen past damage... what do I do?


Dodge or Melee. Those are my only options. I've already stated I don't like this and tried to offer charms to make up for it, I won't beat a dead horse.

(2) SHS expansion charms should be solar charms, not MA charms. This is a reasonable thesis, but what will happen when you put it into practice? Players will generate expansion charms that are simply better than the SHS equivalents. Try to use your Dragon Coil against my Blazing Hydra Hug, and you'll find yourself bested because my charm is a solar charm, while yours is a piddly celestial martial art. That poor schmuk who uses the non-custom charms will be out-paced and infuriated that his character simply isn't as good because his player simply isn't as creative. This is essentially the result of Virj's thesis, which is to create innate non-form type martial arts for the Solars. If nothing else, I find this approach thematically inappropriate, as it turns up it's nose at the perfected lotus.
All this is not to say that I dis-agree with any of your custom charms. I haven't read them... I never read custom charms, though, so take no offense. I'm just saying that if you're creative enough to think outside the box, then I'm sure you can wield your powers to make the box work just fine for you. It's more flexible than you might think!


For instance, I modeled my current character on a disney princess, who floats around on beams of light carried by swarms of friendly animals, singing songs while butchering her foes. She gets most of her tricks from Graceful Crane Stance and that one worthless peformance charm that makes beams of light and such. And a neverending flow of stunts. Good times.

You're... missing what I'm saying...


I want to parry with my fists/feet. I want to counter with my fists and feet. I want something to refresh my defense like Dipping Swallow Defense for my Unarmed Parry DV.


I do not have any way of getting a hold of other supplements at the moment nor is learning other forms of Martial Arts really in theme for the character I'm making this for.


Stunts cannot make my character break rules. I cannot say 'I punch him in the face as I duck under his strike!' because I don't have a charm that lets me counter. I can't say 'I deflect a thousand blows from my enemies' because I don't have a charm to remove my Onslaught penalties. Stunting this is fun and lets you bend the rules a bit (I know, I love doing it) but it doesn't let you outright break the rules.


I can work with a box (though admitedly I'm more of the person to turn the box into an airplane and then use it). My problem is that I don't have the whole box and I need a box that's 20 ft. long, 1 ft. wide, and 7 ft. high. I need a very specific box, and the core rulebook doesn't have it, let alone a full box.


You can't really use just the Core Rulebook very well and get any real use out of either Martial Arts or Sorcery. They give you most of it, enough to work off of, but not really enough to bend to your own ends very easily.


What options do I have if I don't want to (just) perfect Soak and dodging is not in character? What do I do if I want to counter-attack?


No, seriously, mechanically, what are my options? The character isn't going to throw perfects at everything, and honestly, Athletics, Infinite MA Mastery and MA Essence Flow will cover about 80% of what I want to do in combat. But what can I do if I want to block an attack? What can I do if I want to counter their attacks right then and there and not on my next tic? (Which seems like it'd be easier for MA to do anyways)

That aside, I would make the point that even though SHS expansions are Solar charms, they are still MA charms. They shouldn't be as good as a comparable charm from any other ability. It's a price you pay for the sheer versatility of the MA ability.

If MA is weaker, then why aren't the excellency's weaker? That... no, let me try this again, it bothers me that MA is weaker and is not a viable combat method unless you diversify a lot. If you don't want to diversify, you absolutely need a weapon. You can not make a Solar focused on being Solar awesome without picking up a lot of other (according to fluff) weaker MA's.


Another point: All you people who say Martial Arts (even the stuff that's exclusively Solar) is weaker, period. How would I 'weaken' these charms then? What would make these charms at this arbitrarily weak level MA has to be at?


((And yes, I'm kinda irritated. Not really your guys fault though.))

 

[Persell]

The trade off for strong MA charms is increased cost or not giving then the good keywords. Both of which I pointed out in a previous post. Keep in mind the actual effects of these charms are Solar level. Way better then most other CMAs. Entire styles will have, maybe, one or two effects of this level. Three if they are really good. SHS expansion charms just need to be lesser than their Melee, Resistance, Dodge etc. cousins in some way. Doesn't have to be a big difference. One or two more motes to activate is the most basic way.


As for weapons: SHS has available Smashfists. Smashfists! Which are awesome.


I do see where you coming from. I understand that is sucks that MA is weaker in a straight comparison with other charms if you are only going to use just the one style. However, you won't just use that style. You will start that way, sure. You may plan on only using that one style forever. Until you you see all the other MAs that fit in perfectly with your concept. Celestial Tiger style comes to mind (I believe Plague actually has a re-write of it on the White-Wolf forums, definitely check it out).


I'm just trying to give you feedback based on what I've observed in the game.

 

[Andoriol]

Do I like quoting? Yes, definitely, it helps keep me sane... or a reasonable approximation of such at least :mrgreen:

The trade off for strong MA charms is increased cost or not giving then the good keywords. Both of which I pointed out in a previous post. Keep in mind the actual effects of these charms are Solar level. Way better then most other CMAs. Entire styles will have, maybe, one or two effects of this level. Three if they are really good. SHS expansion charms just need to be lesser than their Melee, Resistance, Dodge etc. cousins in some way. Doesn't have to be a big difference. One or two more motes to activate is the most basic way.

OKay... so un-shave those motes? Darn, afraid of that, but I get what you're saying... honestly, I'm going to link this crap to my ST and see what he thinks, if he'll take them as is, great, if he wants more motes, I add more motes.


. . .


But seriously? I'd have to buy like, half a style to get one of these? Sol that just sucks. Like, insultingly so. :?

As for weapons: SHS has available Smashfists. Smashfists! Which are awesome.

I find myself in complete, utter, and unabashed agreement


Smashfists = Copious Amounts of Win.

I do see where you coming from. I understand that is sucks that MA is weaker in a straight comparison with other charms if you are only going to use just the one style. However, you won't just use that style. You will start that way, sure. You may plan on only using that one style forever. Until you you see all the other MAs that fit in perfectly with your concept. Celestial Tiger style comes to mind (I believe Plague actually has a re-write of it on the White-Wolf forums, definitely check it out).
I'm just trying to give you feedback based on what I've observed in the game.

I don't plan on using one style forever, honestly, this character (if he lives long enough) will eventually dabble into Melee some and pick up a bit of dodge as well. His current offense is/is going to be some MA and Sorcery. He's never supposed to be a major combat character.


And while I see what you're saying, and if I was planning on making the character focus on MA as a major thing, like: 'This is my main offense' or 'This is how I identify my combat style', yeah, I'd try to take more MA. Again, I'll reiterate my problem: I don't have any supplements and figuring out how to punch peoples faces good isn't high on my list of stuff to get with my limited budget.


The problem with re-writes is that the vast majority of them require another book, as in: Here's the reworked charms EXCEPT the very basic ones that you need to make the whole thing work.


The main issue is that this character won't do much more than dabble in MA. And what little it is, is very SHS themed. I appreciate that you're trying to help, majorly, and you have been a help, but the majority of what you guys keep saying at me ends up amounting to "Change your character concept" ^^;

 

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

I just thought I'd throw this out there as a solution (and to avoid reading the semi flames going on)


The Resistance Charm tree (Iron Kettle Body)??? (It's one of the 2nd Tier Charms) has a semi perfect for 2 motes that allows Stamina+Resistance vs the enemies Permanent Essence... I'm not sure if it's explicitly allowed to be combo'd with Martial Arts Charms, but it certainly makes strong *thematic* sense that it could.

 

[MorkaisChosen]

If it' Reflexive (which it is) and Combo-OK (which it is), it can be freely comboed with any other Combo-OK or -Basic charm from any ability.


It's Iron Skin Concentration, by the way, and it also increases Soak against the attack even if you fail the Sta+Res roll.

 

[Gylthinel]

Sorry you're getting frazzled.

You're... missing what I'm saying...

I'm not sure that I am missing it, but just to make sure, I'll state it very plainly. You want a perfect martial arts parry. That is the only thing you want. My point is only that you can parry without the parry being perfect.


You do not need to have charms to have your style. You're making the mistake of defining your character with his charms, instead of defining your charms with your character. You can parry a blow aside and punch the guy in the gut without a perfect parry/counter-attack charm combo. You catch a shuriken that's headed at you without the power of the unconquered sun guiding your hand. You can catch a fist easily. Everything you've described can be done in real life and, therefore, certainly doesn't need a charm to emulate.


I too understand your irritation/frustration with the weakness of MA charms compared to core Solar charms. That, unfortunately, is simply part of the setting. You can change this, but that'd be a discussion to have with your GM.

Stunts cannot make my character break rules.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. They can. Please re-read the rules, where you'll notice dozens of references that say 'this or that cannot be done... without a charm OR STUNT.' That's breaking the rules. Stunts do not just give dice, they also give everything else you could possibly want too. You just have to be creative, and your GM has to be generous.

 

[Gylthinel]

Tiny nit pick: Leaping Dragon Stone only adds four dice to martial arts attacks.

BTW, this is what the book says, but adding +4 to attack only is not up to snuff with a 4 dot hearthstone, so in my group we make it add to all martial arts (though that might be TOO good. Go figure).

 

[Haku1]

I agree with OP here.


Solar Hero Style -expansion- charms SHOULD be as strong as Melee in offense and defense, given that they're also solar charms. The methods used in the charms may be different, but they are solar level charms.


What does this mean for him?


It means he should have the ability to develop charms that do instant and scene long effects that aid his parries, beyond Ah Ha! I buy dice with my excellencies. Because if this was the reverse for melee with someone saying to you that you can't get custom parry charms for melee because the solar already has a damn good daiklave, hearthstones, a nice parry DV from excellencies, there aren't any official parry charms in the core book, and besides, melee is all about smacking someone in the face HARD with a weapon... what would YOU say?


As for the charms, here's some C&C.


Resurgent Defense of the Sun is a rewrite of a melee parry charm. You might want to note about needing to be able to parry lethal damage before using it on attacks that do lethal damage.


Glorious Solar Corona seems a higher costing version of 5 Dragon Blocking Technique (terrestrial martial arts)... I suggest lowering the costs to 4m, 1wp, and allows for parrying of bashing, lethal, aggravated damage with the boosted parry DV, also reflexive (step 2) for its type.

Five-Dragon Blocking Technique
Cost: 4m, 1wp; Mins: Martial Arts 3, Essence 2; Type: Simple (Speed 5, DV -0)


Keywords: Combo-Basic


Duration: One scene


Prerequisite Charms: Five-Dragon Fortitude


This Charm allows a martial artist's Essence to enhance his efforts to block blows and the capability to parry deadly weapons while unarmed.


Source: Manual of Exalted Power: Dragon-Blooded, p. 190.

Denial of Heaven should note that it's activated on step 2 of the attack steps, ala Type : Reflexive (Step 2).


Blazing Corona of the Sun's effect means that when they hit you, you'll ALWAYS do a minimum of (essence/2) dice damage to them as it's lower than your ping.


I would recommend reworking it to


Blazing Corona of the Sun


Cost: --; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4; Type: Permanent


Keywords: Obvious, Counter-Attack, Holy


Duration: Permanent


Prerequisite Charms: Glorious Solar Corona, Solar Hero Form


This charm permanently upgrades Glorious Solar Corona. When activating the charm Glorious Solar Corona, the solar may commit an additional 4 motes. Upon doing so, the Glorious Solar Corona charm gains the following keywords and effects;


Keywords : Counter-Attack, Holy


Effects :


1) The charm adds (essence x 2) to the martial arts parry DV calculation instead of (essence).


2) It allows the solar to inflict damage on her attackers who attack her successfully (and those who failed against the solar's parry DV) as a counter-attack effect. Dealing (Essence/2) dice of lethal damage that may be soaked or negated with hardness normally. Against Creatures of Darkness, the damage is aggravated.


3) Due to the very nature of this charm however, if the users anima is below the 11-15 level, it is brought up to that level. As long as Glorious Solar Corona is activate, the users anima may not drop below the 11+ level.


If Glorious Solar Corona was not activated with the upgrade's effects, the solar may commit 4 motes as if using a simple charm (speed 4) to invoke the secondary effects. If this was done, the secondary effects may be released without ending Glorious Solar Corona.


Refutal of the Ignorant is something I would recommend against as is. Make the counter-attack as a single instant effect before going for lol, all attacks at me until my DV refreshes gets hit with counter-attacks. Perhaps something like this...


Refutal of the Ignorant


Cost: 3m; Mins: Martial Arts 4, Essence 2; Type: Reflexive (Step 9)


Keywords: Combo-Ok, Counterattack


Duration: Instant


Prerequisite Charms: Resurgent Defense of the Sun, Solar Hero Form


Those who strike at the Princes of the Earth shall know their folly. Whenever she uses her martial arts Parry DV against an attack, this Charm provides her with the option to make a counterattack at her full martial arts attack dice pool.


At essence 3+, the solar may spend an additional 2 motes when activating this charm, doing so grants her the ability to counter-attack any attack that she defends against with her martial arts Parry DV until her DV refreshes.


The counter-attacks granted by this charm may not be used against counter-attacks.


Sun Burns Those Who Get Too Close... no, just no. I would recommend instead a charm that outright prevents degradation of DV from counter-attacks, or from actions (such as attacks! or flurries!) done by the solar for the scene. And as fun as permanent charms are, I strongly recommend against them as they're too much a "I Win!" type effect.


Destruction of the Arrogant seems... poorly designed. Permanent charms are literally that, please do not willy-nilly add type and duration permanent to something that is only active in a scene. Try this...


Destruction of the Arrogant


Cost: 5m 1w; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4; Type: Reflexive (Step 9)


Keywords: Combo-Basic, Counter-attack


Duration: Scene


Prerequisite Charms: Refutal of the Ignorant, Solar Hero Form


When a Solar martial artist is just standing there, smiling at you, it's probably not a good idea to attack.


For the rest of the scene, whenever the Solar uses their Unarmed Parry DV against an attack, this charm provides him with the option of a counterattack.