Solar Martial Arts Help?

[Andoriol]

Okay, after looking over Solar Hero Style, I find it thematically close to what I've got in mind... but severely, severely lacking on the defense side of the equation.


... this bothers me mostly because we're talking about Solars, they do perfection. It confuses me why they wouldn't have a Perfect Unarmed Parry, or even an ability to enhance their parry with Martial Arts Charms. Perfection is like the whole Solar schtick, why don't they have anything defense related in their Hero Style? Or even a counterattack?! That seems perfectly in theme for the 'Proper application of Overwhelming power, grace, and speed' thing Solar Hero Style supposedly has...


Basically, it just bothers me, and I'd like to ask the ECR as a whole a couple questions:


A). Am I just being stupid? Is this seriously not a problem/there's an easy work around that I'm missing (aside from learning another Martial Arts style)?


B). Are there already good expansions on Solar Hero Style out there with this theme? This would make my life a lot easier.


C). Is it out of theme to give a Solar the ability to use a charm to pretty much block any attack with the palm of their hand?/Is the concept of a Perfect Unarmed Parry really not something a Solar would do?


D). If I go through with this, how would you suggest I go about it? What would be the basis of a tree that reaches to a Perfect Unarmed Parry in Solar Hero Style?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

This...would be what Solar Hero expansion charms are for. Now, there are already some perfect defense charms in existence cannonically in Celestial level Martial Arts. So it's clearly possible. The question then is where, what depth, and how many charms if you make an entire tree instead of simply a charm branching off of the style on its own. For tree depth, compared to Solar Melee, placing it branching off of Solar Hero Form may be best, if you just want to have it branch off, but not be an entire tree. If you want an entire tree, well, Fists of Iron and Solar Hero form both include some defensive traits, and so might be appropriate places for such a charm to branch off of. Likely such should be a Parry charm, and have one of the Four Flaws of Solar Invulnerability. Whether this is a specific one or one selected...is a bit harder. Being a Solar Hero charm, it's likely that it should be a selected one of the four, not one individual. This isn't a style based around one or two virtues, like the Art of Meditative Discussion or Crane Style.

 

[Andoriol]

Those were my thoughts on it as well. Part of my issue is that there isn't even an equivalent to 'Dipping Swallow Defense' or 'Shadow Over Water' for the style. I was thinking that it would require Fists of Iron, work identically to DSD, but only for unarmed attacks (Including stuff Solar Hero Style considers unarmed of course) and costing one mote.


Then there'd be another charm requiring that one based on defense as well. I had the idea (And only an idea, I don't know how well this'd go over) of 'Solar Corona' which would basically let you add half your Essence to your Unarmed Parry DV (As in your Parry DV while this was activated would be ((Dexterity + Martial Arts + Defense of fists/feet/unarmed/etc. + Essence) / 2). Scene-long, combo-ok, but costing 8+ motes.


This one... I'm not too sure of. I like it, but I don't know what people who have access to more about the game and have played it more would say (so I'm asking )


Then would come the unarmed perfect parry. 4 motes, and you choose the flaw of invulnerability. It'd require Martial Arts 4 and Essence 2 like the other perfect defenses.


At least, those were my original thoughts ^^;

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Reasonable, but you're making the scene long defense booster a bit more expensive than it might truly require. That's exactly what Five Dragon Blocking Technique does, at similar depth, and that has a cost of 4 motes and 1 wp, and is a Terrestrial Martial Arts charm. Something like 6 motes, if you want pure motes and no willpower would likely be fine. Still, existing Martial Arts charms that aren't Form charms with similar abilities all cost Willpower, so you may want to keep that. Would you intend for it to be Simple or Reflexive? Five Dragon Blocking Technique is Simple, but it's a Terrestrial Martial Arts charm, while this would be a Celestial/Solar Martial Arts charm, so might be able to be Reflexive instead. Though if that, perhaps you're right about the cost. It's a hard call.


Personally, I'd say 4 motes and 1 WP, but make it Combo Ok, Reflexive.

 

[Andoriol]

((Ooh boy, you've got me started, I aughta make a Temperance roll to stop now, but... meh, I'm having fun))


Mmm... I'm thinking more of a simple, combo-ok thing with a cost of 6m...


Ah! Damn. I totally forgot, what if it also (as a permanent effect) allowed the character to parry lethal with their unarmed without a stunt? As in, 'Once you take this charm, you may always parry lethal with your unarmed as if it was a weapon or you were wearing smashfists/etc.' Would that be a big issue? Or would that be better if it were a secondary effect at like, essence 3 or 4+?


Another thing I was thinking was a set of charms focused on counter-attacks. The starting one would require the MA equivalent of DSD and cost 4m, but allow counter-attacks until the next action up to (Essence) counterattacks.


Followed up by a scene-long that would let you counterattack whenever you successfully use your unarmed parry to not take any damage from an attack, explicitly including perfect parries and charm usage. However, I don't know how well that'd work or what the cost might be...


And I'm sorry if I'm just re-creating stuff that's already out there, I've only got the 2nd Edition Core, I'm mostly making up this stuff of things I've seen and the basic theme as I understand it.

 

[Gylthinel]

The hero forms build off of what the Exalted can already do. Why mimic DSD when you can take DSD? Why get put a perfect in there when you can get 7-Shadow evasion or Adamant Skin Technique? Seems to me that hero styles tend to synthesize with the base exalt's charms, not overlap them.

 

[Persell]

Yeah, with good defensive charms available so early in all their other charms trees or in other MAs, it's not really a big deal for Solar Hero Style to lack any defensive charms. Any defensive charms would fit better if they were counter attacks similar to Crimson Palm Counterstrike. I actually pretty much copied it straight out as a Solar Hero expansion charm, but I made it lead to a grapple counterattack. Of course just because it is not needed doesn't mean you shouldn't do it any way.

 

[Virjigorm]

The hero forms build off of what the Exalted can already do. Why mimic DSD when you can take DSD? Why get put a perfect in there when you can get 7-Shadow evasion or Adamant Skin Technique? Seems to me that hero styles tend to synthesize with the base exalt's charms, not overlap them.

This is a great point. Consider also the theme associated with Solar Hero Style: Righteous Ass-Beating. It's just not a careful, defensive style. The whole concept is to deliver devastating justice to the enemies of Creation, not pussyfoot around trying not to take a hit. If you want to parry with your khatar, take the melee charms for that, since the weapon can be wielded with either ability. You can even combo the melee and MA charms as long as you don't mix attack and defense (can't use MA excellency with dipping swallow, for example).


Personally, I feel that resistance is the best defensive ability to use with SHS. It just looks better to smash and throw your hapless enemies around like toys while their desperate attempts to resist your fury plink off your glorious corona of awesome.

 

[Andoriol]

Problems:


A). Character Concept - The Solar doesn't use Melee or Archery! *le-gasp!*


Honestly though, my problem is that dodging isn't really in character, and just having a single perfect just makes me uneasy. My issue is more that a Solar that doesn't want to dodge has to go into Melee to get their parry.


B). Books - I do not have many books, correction: I have a book. It's called the 2nd Edition Core. I do not have the money for more. I cannot (even if the character would do so) use these other Martial Arts styles because I do not have access to the books.


More specifically: Gylthinel, how can I take DSD when I don't have dots in melee? And what if dodging isn't in theme for the character? What options, other than Adamant Skin Technique, do I have for perfects?


No, seriously, do you have any other suggestions? I went with creating a parrellel, similar but not identical, set of charms for Solar Hero Style, focused more on long counter-attacks than avoiding Overwhelm penalties. Which is what I'm trying to get comments/critique on, as well as suggestions for alternate ways of going about such.


jeriausx: [[see above issue with books.]] Generally, the character doesn't have an easy way to learn other MA's, and I don't have access to them, otherwise I'd've ripped them out of there much like you're talking about. Could you give me suggestions based on those? My thoughts were similar on Solar Hero Style focusing more on counters rather than outright defense.


Virjigorm: I know, I like that theme, and I agree with most of that, but I'd have to dump XP into getting the dots in melee to get my melee stuff wouldn't I? Besides, I like the thought of a slightly different set of Counter-Attack charms in MA, since the overwhelming offense seems in line with righteous ass-kicking. That, and I want my perfect parry without dumping the XP into melee just to get it, the character already has MA, why should I have to waste XP on buying melee just to get a charm that seems like it should already be in the tree...?


Meh, that's just the way I'm looking at it, tear that apart if you want and I'm being stupid, that's just the way I'm looking at it.

 

[Persell]

Thought: Whats the best way to protect yourself? By breaking the other guys weapon. It based on Crimson Palm Counterstroke with what I think is a nice SHS themed twist.


I'll call it:


Anvil Cracking Reproach


Cost: 6m; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 3; Type: Reflexive


Keywords: Combo-Ok, Counterattack, Crippling


Duration: Instant


Prerequisite Charms: Solar Hero Form


Roll (Dexterity +Martial Arts) pool in a contest against the attacker’s attack roll. After taking successes out of the attacker’s roll based on the Solar’s normal PDV, the Solar’s successes on this roll subtract from the leftover successes from the attack roll. If the Solar’s PDV and (Dexterity + Martial Arts) result cancels out all of the attacker’s successes and still has successes left over, those extra successes are applied against the attackers weapon. If the counterattack hits an inanimate weapon it deals double raw (pre-soak) damage. If the counter attack hits an opponents limb and deals at least 2 damage, the limb suffers a disabling wound. This is a Crippling effect.


The Solar can not use this charm in response to another counter attack and only when he would otherwise be able to apply his PDV.


Not sure if the cost and what have you is good but meh.

 

[Andoriol]

Ooh! I like the concept, might need some more reworking, and I don't know how many 'health levels' a normal sword or weapon might have, otherwise I'd probably really like it. But as it is, it needs a bit more work, how exactly, I'm not sure yet, but it looks to need a bit more work.


I was thinking an action-long counter-attack one, but I don't know enough about the mechanics off the top of my head to really plan it out. Followed by a scene-long counter, but I don't know how to balance either one more towards SHS theme-d-ness.

 

[MorkaisChosen]

Weirdly enough, I was thinking this morning about a Dark Messiah Style charm that'd use a counterattack to break the opponent's weapon. Funny how these things go...

 

[Andoriol]

Alrighties, here's the basic ideas, someone yell at me if they're stupid.


As these are extensions of Solar Hero Style, treat the form weapons of the style as unarmed for the purposes of these charms.


Resurgent Defense of the Sun


Cost: 2m; Mins: Martial Arts 2, Essence 1; Type: Reflexive


Keywords: Combo-Ok


Duration: Instant


Prerequisite Charms: Fist of Iron


Even when struck at by a thousand blows, the Chosen of the Sun may swat aside attacks.


This charm is functionally identical to Dipping Swallow Defense. It is used in response to an attack, it allows the Exalt to ignore all penalties that apply to her Martial Arts Parry DV when resolving the attack. Her Parry DV is still 0 if inapplicable, but it takes no further penalties.


Glorious Solar Corona


Cost: 6m 1wp; Mins: Martial Arts 3, Essence 2; Type: Simple (Speed 4)


Keywords: Combo-Ok, Obvious


Duration: Scene


Prerequisite Charms: Resurgent Defense of the Sun


Just as the sun blazes with power, so do his Chosen.


The Solar ignites the blaze of Solar power inside them, turning their anima into a physical force.


Mechanically, this allows the Solar to apply their essence to their Unarmed Parry DV, which is calculated as (Dexterity + Martial Arts + Defense of Weapon + Essence) / 2.


Denial of Heaven


Cost: 4m; Mins: Martial Arts 4, Essence 2; Type: Reflexive


Keywords: Combo-Ok, Obvious


Duration: Instant


Prerequisite Charms: Glorious Solar Corona


Solars have denied the gods, the demons, and even the Titans themselves. With but their fists, the Solar may stop any strike, catch any missle, block any attack.


This charm is invoked in response to an attack. The attack must not be unexpected, and the character must have an unarmed, and unarmored hand free (form weapons for Solar Hero Style are considered unarmed for the purposes of this charm). This charm is a parry that perfectly defends against any attack, even if it is unblockable.


This charm has one of the Four Flaws of Invulnerability common to all Solar perfect defenses.


((New idea I had))


Blazing Corona of the Sun


Cost: +4m; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4; Type: Permanent


Keywords: Combo-Ok, Obvious, Counter-Attack, Holy


Duration: Scene


Prerequisite Charms: Glorious Solar Corona, Solar Hero Form


The Solar has further refined their ability to set their anima ablaze with the righteous power of the sun.


This charm enhances Glorious Solar Corona. By paying an additional 4 motes upon the activation of Glorious Solar Corona, the Solar may instead add her essence directly to her Unarmed Parry DV, which is then calculated as [((Dexterity + Martial Arts + Defense of weapon) / 2) + Essence] for the length of the scene.


Additionally, opponents who strike the Solar take (Essence/2) levels of Lethal damage in Step 9 of their attack due to the righteous flames that envelop the Solar. When struck by a creature of darkness, this damage is Aggravated instead. The attacker may soak this damage normally.


Due to the very nature of this charm however, if the users anima is below the 11-15 level, it is brought up to that level. As long as this charm is activate, the users anima may not drop below the 11+ level.


This charm may be activated and deactivated freely during the duration of Glorious Solar Corona. This will reduce the characters anima level to what it would normally be at the time. Activating the charm in a way that is not supplemental to Glorious Solar Corona makes this charm Simple (Speed 4) and counts as the characters charm use for action. Activating it later, or reactivating it after dispelling it, costs another 4 motes.


Refutal of the Ignorant


Cost: 4m; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 3; Type: Reflexive (Step 9)


Keywords: Combo-Ok, Counterattack


Duration: Until next action


Prerequisite Charms: Resurgent Defense of the Sun, Solar Hero Form


Those who strike at the Princes of the Earth shall know their folly. Until their next action, whenever she uses her Unarmed Parry DV against an attack, this Charm provides her with the option to make a counterattack.


Sun Burns Those Who Get Too Close


Cost: -m; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 3; Type: Permanent


Keywords: Counterattack


Duration: Permanent


Prerequisite Charms: Refutal of the Ignorant, Solar Hero Form


Just as the sun burns those who come too close, the Solar swats aside the fools who would strike at them.


This charm permanently enhances the Solars ability to counterattack, ensuring their defense does not suffer in striking down imepteous fools.


From now on, a number of Counterattacks up to the Solars essence do not count towards the cumulative reduction of the DV of their next action. This refreshes alongside the Solar's DV.


For example, an Essence 3 Solar is attacked by five men one time each. The Solar makes a counterattack against each one, the additional DV penalty to the Solars next action would be -2. Assuming all five of the men survived and attacked again, the Solar could again make three counterattacks before their DV would begin to suffer.


Destruction of the Arrogant


Cost: 5m 1w; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4; Type: Reflexive (Step 9), Permanent


Keywords: Combo-Basic, Counterattack


Duration: Scene, Permanent


Prerequisite Charms: Refutal of the Ignorant, Solar Hero Form


When a Solar martial artist is just standing there, smiling at you, it's probably not a good idea to attack.


For the rest of the scene, whenever the Solar uses their Unarmed Parry DV against an attack, this charm provides him with the option of a counterattack.


If Refutal of the Ignorant is used while this charm is active, that charms effect is instead similar to Bulwark Stance. Removing the onslaught penalty other characters' attacks impose on the Solars DV and reducing the defense penalty of the Solars actions by one, to a minimum of zero.


------------------------


So... thoughts...?


(And I just realized I might've put this in the wrong place, is there somewhere better to put the thread/these thing while I'm still hashing them out?)


Edit: (Fixed the Holy issue Sanguine pointed out as well as something else I caught. Still wondering on suggestions/comments )


Edit: (Changed the wording for Blazing Corona of the Sun (henceforth abreviated as BCoftheS) to something (hopefully) better. Added in some wp costs and fixed my horrible mistake on Denial of Heaven's length. Still lookin' for comments/critiques though 8) )

 

[Sanguine1]

Blazing Corona of the Sun should have the Holy keyword and there is really no reason for why only Solars should be able to access the Holy aspect of the Charm. Except for the fact that since they are expansion charms only Solars can learn them except for Fiend and Moonshadow Castes which can't use Holy Charms anyway as they are Creatures of Darkness.


Also neither Blazing Corona of the Sun nor Glorious Solar Corona as like I said earlier they are expansion charms and thus only available to Solars.(Or Moonshadow/Fiend Castes who already are paying extra motes.)


Aside from that very well designed Charms.

 

[MorkaisChosen]

I'm no expert on Charm design, but I'd edit the wording slightly on Blazing Corona of the Sun, so you can still get up to Iconic anima flare.


There are two options: either keep tracking anima flare, with 11-15 mote level as the minimum, or have Blazing Corona immediately increase your "Motes used" count to 11 unless it's above. The first gives you much less chance of going iconic, obviously.

 

[Persell]

Glorious Solar Corona- Needs a 1wp cost to be consistent with other scene long charms.


Denial of Heaven- I think you meant for the duration to be Instant not Scene


Blazing Corona of the Sun- Again needs 1wp cost, other than that its works just like a published MA charm, Four Halo Golden Monkey Realignment.


Refutal of the Ignorant- Should be 6m cost, 5m if it drops to Combo-Basic instead of Combo-OK. Works just like Ready in Eight Directions Stace.


Destruction of the Arrogant- A cost of 5m, 1wp would better. Angry Predator Frenzy Style cost 7m, 1wp and provides a scene long Extra Action and scene long Counterattack.


Other than that they seem fine. as stated above a few actually mimic charms that are already published, so the mechanics are spot on.

 

[Andoriol]

Nn~! Dang... though I was good for that...


Kay...


Kinda irritated that I missed that on Denial of Heaven, but... yeah, woops.


I didn't particularly want to add a wp to Glorious Solar Corona, but looking back through the Core, yeah, you're right


Damn.


On that note though, why would Blazing Corona of the Sun require a wp cost? That would be in addition to that of Glorious Solar Corona, the whole idea is that the Solar is just adding more fuel to the fire, why would you need to pay 2wp to activate one charm? Blazing Corona of the Sun is supposed to be an option for you when you activate GSC, not a seperate charm...


Would it really need another wp cost? It can't work without GSC already being on...


Refutal of the Ignorant was intentional, I thought that Martial Arts (at least the thematic Solar Hero Style) would have an easier time of counter-attacks than general Melee, there's also the fact that it only works with Solar Hero Style form weapons, I thought that the combined stuff justified it being a mote cheaper than Ready in Eight Directions Stance. It should definitely be Combo-Ok though, it's MA.


((I'm actually pretty surprised that I got these as good as I did on the first go O_o ))

 

[Persell]

Your right with Blazing Corona of the Sun.


With Refutal of the Arrogant, as is it is better then it Melee version. It costs the same and is more useful. Being limited be SHS form weapons doesn't really matter. Its a charm in SHS so you will be using SHS form weapons any way. It needs to either cost more or get its Combo keywords bumped down.

 

[Gylthinel]

More specifically: Gylthinel, how can I take DSD when I don't have dots in melee? And what if dodging isn't in theme for the character? What options, other than Adamant Skin Technique, do I have for perfects?

So, your trouble is that 1) you don't want to dodge attacks, 2) you don't want to soak attacks and 3) you don't have the XP to dig into the melee tree (which really is sub-optimal anyway, since you can't melee when you're unarmed). This means your concept is: punch attacks out of the air. A fine concept but, alas, one that simply doesn't work with Solar Hero Style... or does it? Because you can use Adamant Skin to punch an attack out of the sky... meaning, you soak it with your fist. Would this be sufficiently tough-guy bad-ass enough?


Generally, it's my policy to dissuade custome charms. I don't forbid them, but typically they're simply an attempt to get on the cheap what can be got at a premium elsewhere.


The worst part is that since MA charms are weaker than core Solar charms (in theory and policy if not in practice), any perfect you get elsewhere should be less-good than Adamant Skin or 7 Shadow Evasion.

 

[Andoriol]

So, your trouble is that 1) you don't want to dodge attacks, 2) you don't want to soak attacks and 3) you don't have the XP to dig into the melee tree (which really is sub-optimal anyway, since you can't melee when you're unarmed). This means your concept is: punch attacks out of the air. A fine concept but, alas, one that simply doesn't work with Solar Hero Style... or does it? Because you can use Adamant Skin to punch an attack out of the sky... meaning, you soak it with your fist. Would this be sufficiently tough-guy bad-ass enough?


Generally, it's my policy to dissuade custome charms. I don't forbid them, but typically they're simply an attempt to get on the cheap what can be got at a premium elsewhere.

Less good...? Heh, but yeah, I get what you're saying. And yes, those are basically my three problems.


Let me try to explain this, I don't mean punch their attack out of the sky, I mean swat it aside. Chop the arrow in half before it hits you, as the person attacks your back you duck down and kick out back at them, you catch the handle of the grand-goremaul and yank the hammer aside, catch the shuriken on your fingers like Kakashi does early in the anime Naruto. There is a difference between taking an attack (even strategically) and deflecting it.


My problem is that my only option for doing any of that is Soak (which the character would eventually get as well honestly), when most of that is really more of a parry. What's the point of an Unarmed Parry DV if you can't use it? If I deflect the horizontal swipe of a daiklave up, dive in, and punch the assailent in the stomach, is that a dodge? Am I really soaking it if it wouldn't have done damage anyways? That seems to me to be a text-book parry-counter, just with my fists instead of a sword.


I just wanted something mechanical to represent this in the game itself instead of relying on having a pair of smashfists and god-kicking boots on to do it.


I understand your stance on custom things, and while I disagree, I don't even begin to fault you for it. The thing is, the whole reason I'm asking about this stuff now is so it's balanced before I suddenly try to develop it in character and present it to my ST. I want more opinions, more eyes to look over it for faults than just mine and my ST's so I don't accidentally give my character a craptastic charm or something that's just a WIN button.

The worst part is that since MA charms are weaker than core Solar charms (in theory and policy if not in practice), any perfect you get elsewhere should be less-good than Adamant Skin or 7 Shadow Evasion.

While I definitely get this, as it's been pointed out to me, the stuff I've proposed are expansions to Solar Hero Style, and by default, Solar Charms. They can't be learned by anyone else like the core Solar Hero Style can. I'm just confused as to why charms that are an extension of the Chosen of the Sun would be weaker just because they're using their fists... it just makes me feel pidgeon-holed that the Invincible Hero's of the Dawn, Princes of the Earth, whatever the heck you want to call them, these people who's whole thing is perfection... absolutely need a weapon. They have to either have a weapon, or make one from power to be effective. That... just makes no sense to me.


I get that a Solar shouldn't have auto-access to the levels of Siddie-fu, nothing overwhelming and they can't even design stuff at Siddie MA levels. I get this and not only accept it, I agree with it. As ass-kick as the Solar's are, there's things even they don't do with absolute perfection, and Sol Invictus isn't exactly known for beating you with his four fists.


I just don't understand why this automatically makes a Solar Charm that focuses on MA weaker than one that doesn't. Just because a Solar can't reach as high into it on their own, doesn't seem to automatically mean that they can't be good at it at the levels they can reach. A Solar MA excellency isn't weaker than the others just because it's for MA, why should other charms that are exclusively Solar charms be weaker just because it's for MA?


At least, that's my thoughts on it, if I'm being stupid rather than just sticking to my guns, tell me. Point out where I'm being stupid and call me on it, 'cause I'm probably missing it.

 

[Fabricati]

I agree with Andoriol here. Solar Hero Style may well be weaker than most Solar Charms in general, and in exchange, it gets to play nice with everyone else.


Any pure Solar extension is pure Solar Might and doesn't- or shouldn't- have that restriction on its core being. The Solars are mighty, even in unarmed combat. Sol has the Invictus title for a reason, and Solars are reflections of that endless might.


As it puts in the sidebar, "Solars may learn the Snake Style but they are already deadlier than the snake. They may learn Tiger Style, but they are fiercer than that predator..."


Why can they not display that unrivaled might in Extension Charms?

 

[Virjigorm]

I might actually be starting to agree here...


I personally despise making up charms to squeeze more power out of less XP, and always disallow such in my games. I have no doubt that's the main point of Andoriol's tinkering and I totally wouldn't let it fly were I running the game...


However...


I do see the point that new Solar MA charms should be allowed on the same basis that a charm of any ability can be created. No one would argue if a balanced new melee charm were proposed, so why is it an issue with MA? The answer is style. If you make a new charm to fit into a style, it needs to be in line with the theme of the style. What do you do then, if the charm idea you have doesn't fit with a style you've mastered? You're pretty much stuck, as the rules leave it.


It seems to me that the solution is non-styled MA charms. By default, creating new Hero style charms is allowed for each Exalt type, but if you want to branch outside your Hero Style you run into the thematic conflict that gets your ideas shot down. You also have the problem of needing to be a master of a (non-hero) style to expand it. The solution I would allow is to create MA charms that are not part of any style (thinking back to 1ed Solar Brawl). These charms would work like any ability charms and would be compatible with any armor, but no weapons except "brawling aids"(coincidentally that means pretty much all SHS weapons). They would not gain benefits or limitations granted by charms that modify a specific style's charms, but they would be in-ability for MA combos.


Another arguable point is that any MA charm developed by a Solar is allowable in SHS. I don't agree with this idea and would argue that a power-hungry Solar could just make up different names for Infernal Monster Style charms and call himself righteous while he tears villagers apart with his "Crushing Monster Claw of The Sun"...stupid.

 

[Andoriol]

I might actually be starting to agree here...

Yay!

I personally despise making up charms to squeeze more power out of less XP, and always disallow such in my games. I have no doubt that's the main point of Andoriol's tinkering and I totally wouldn't let it fly were I running the game...

Actually, what I'm trying to do is basically recreate a certain amount of Solar Melee in Solar Martial Arts. I definitely admit to pushing them as close to the edge of balance as I think I can while being fair, but I'm mostly concerned with being fair and trying to keep the theme of Solar Hero Style in mind/play.

I do see the point that new Solar MA charms should be allowed on the same basis that a charm of any ability can be created. No one would argue if a balanced new melee charm were proposed, so why is it an issue with MA? The answer is style. If you make a new charm to fit into a style, it needs to be in line with the theme of the style. What do you do then, if the charm idea you have doesn't fit with a style you've mastered? You're pretty much stuck, as the rules leave it.
It seems to me that the solution is non-styled MA charms. By default, creating new Hero style charms is allowed for each Exalt type, but if you want to branch outside your Hero Style you run into the thematic conflict that gets your ideas shot down. You also have the problem of needing to be a master of a (non-hero) style to expand it.

Okay... I'm not sure what you mean here

The solution I would allow is to create MA charms that are not part of any style (thinking back to 1ed Solar Brawl). These charms would work like any ability charms and would be compatible with any armor, but no weapons except "brawling aids"(coincidentally that means pretty much all SHS weapons). They would not gain benefits or limitations granted by charms that modify a specific style's charms, but they would be in-ability for MA combos.
Another arguable point is that any MA charm developed by a Solar is allowable in SHS. I don't agree with this idea and would argue that a power-hungry Solar could just make up different names for Infernal Monster Style charms and call himself righteous while he tears villagers apart with his "Crushing Monster Claw of The Sun"...stupid.

Okay, I think I see why you'd have a problem/what your problem's been with this. I definitely agree with the whole 'unaffiliated Solar MA charms' thing, but the last I checked, any such thing is automatically considered an extension of Solar Hero Style. If I'm wrong and you can quote a page at me, I'd be overjoyed, but that's the way I understood it/been told.


Here's the way I view Solar Hero Style's 'theme': Straight-forward, blazing righteous power. The proper application of the overwhelming grace, speed, and power of the Solar Exalted in a Martial Art. It's a way of capturing the spirit and style of the Solar's with your fists, and when someone else learns the style, they're trying to emulate it. But a Solar is that, so why can't they use it to its full potential?


The grace and speed are mostly covered by Athletics if not entirely, so that's generally covered. But not the power. The power is part of the MA. And the way I understand Power is that it's not just offense. When I think of Power in this context, I think something like Ganandorf from Legend of Zelda. He's big, he's nasty, but his whole schtick (aside from recurring evil) is POWER. He doesn't go down like a bitch when you smack him, he smacks you back harder if you even hit him, he walks through your attacks, and if you aren't careful, attacks you right through your own attack.


...


And yet there's nothing to reflect that in Solar MA. Just 'I punch him harder'. That's it and it attmitedly infuriates me :evil:


SHS, Fists of Iron says that after you've used it, you can parry lethal unarmed, and the main use of Solar Hero Form is basically to parry lethal unarmed... and yet it the charms there act like you'll never do it. Parry? Defense? What's that? Oh yeah, that thing that keeps you from dying, who cares about that?


Um... people other than Kamina? Simon used a modicum of defense called 'Plowing right through your opponents attack with your own'. This (to me) seems like the epitome of Solar Hero Style defense, this 'Oh, you're going to attack me? Okay, I'll strike you as/before you strike me with the force of a small thermo-nuclear device! Destroying your attack in the process!' It just seems right for a Solar to use something like that.


My problem was trying to capture that feeling with charms, I don't have anything but the 2nd Edition Core at the moment, me re-creating charms from other places was a total (lucky) accident. I tried (emphasis on that word there) to emulate the whole 'My offense is my defense, my ability to strike you as you strike me, my power to plow through your attacks is my defense.'


Okay, I'm ranting, I'll stop. But I do have to ask this: What part of the charms I've presented doesn't work for you? What part doesn't seem 'in theme' for Solar Hero Style and why? :?


((P.S. - A Solar trying to call anything from Infernal Monster Style righteous is about as retarded as it gets. If any of my stuff does that, smack me silly 'cause I'd deserve it... and I probably didn't realize it.

 

[Gylthinel]

I think everybody can empathize with the painful crux of the solar exalted: they're supposed to be uber. You don't own all the splat books so I'll let you in on a little secret: they're actually pussies.


Anyhoo, I'll address the 2 points you made that I find most pertinent:


(1) SHS is attack only. True, but again, this is the only power that a solar needs from the martial art. I understand that you're wanting a certain flair with your martial art. In my opinion, flair comes more from stunts than from charms (again, opinion!). I also think you're over-simplifying the potence of a solar's defense ability. If he's unarmed, using SHForm, and has maxed out dots, that gives him a decent 6 for his parry value. Pump him up with that 4 dot solar hearthstone and you're up to 8. Heck, you could stick with Infinate Martial Arts Mastery, and could simply use excellencies to make your PDV high. High PDV catches a goremaul and palms a shuriken. Meaning, a perfect parry is not the ONLY parry. Besides, a perfect parry catches a fireball, or palms the claws of a 50' titan. Both of these could be achieved with Adamant Skin, and an appropriate stunt (which would probably garner you 1-2 dice, refunding you for most of the motes spent on the charm. Hssa). So this segues back to my general thesis that you can get what you want from the RAW charms.


(2) SHS expansion charms should be solar charms, not MA charms. This is a reasonable thesis, but what will happen when you put it into practice? Players will generate expansion charms that are simply better than the SHS equivalents. Try to use your Dragon Coil against my Blazing Hydra Hug, and you'll find yourself bested because my charm is a solar charm, while yours is a piddly celestial martial art. That poor schmuk who uses the non-custom charms will be out-paced and infuriated that his character simply isn't as good because his player simply isn't as creative. This is essentially the result of Virj's thesis, which is to create innate non-form type martial arts for the Solars. If nothing else, I find this approach thematically inappropriate, as it turns up it's nose at the perfected lotus.


All this is not to say that I dis-agree with any of your custom charms. I haven't read them... I never read custom charms, though, so take no offense. I'm just saying that if you're creative enough to think outside the box, then I'm sure you can wield your powers to make the box work just fine for you. It's more flexible than you might think!


For instance, I modeled my current character on a disney princess, who floats around on beams of light carried by swarms of friendly animals, singing songs while butchering her foes. She gets most of her tricks from Graceful Crane Stance and that one worthless peformance charm that makes beams of light and such. And a neverending flow of stunts. Good times.

 

[Persell]

Tiny nit pick: Leaping Dragon Stone only adds four dice to martial arts attacks.


That aside, I would make the point that even though SHS expansions are Solar charms, they are still MA charms. They shouldn't be as good as a comparable charm from any other ability. It's a price you pay for the sheer versatility of the MA ability.