Solar Charm Analysis

[Joseph]

Consider a Solar Melee Charm that is as follows:


The Solar focuses on his foe with intense consideration for a split moment before attacking, anticipating in his head how his opponent will dodge -- if at all -- and using his foe's intended movement to benefit his own attack.  Rather than dodge successes removing successes from his attack roll, they instead ADD successes, as the target's dodge attempt sends them head on into the cleverly planned attack rather than around or away from it.  Perfect dodges avoid as usual, while automatically successful but non-perfect dodge attempts are simply ignored.  Without some sort of Essence sight or Charm detection, it is impossible to tell this maneuver is being used before its results are seen.


What I need suggestions on:


1) Minimum Melee


2) Minimum Essence


3) Mote cost


4) Balance issues


I see this as a logical extension of unblockable/undodgeable attacks.

 

[Haku1]

I would say Melee minimum would be 5, essence would be 4 if not 5, as for the cost; 1 willpower and 3 motes PER success converted. This would seem to be more of a simple charm then supplemental... but that's just me.


As for undodgable / unparriable charms... those are easy enough to stat out, given that you can derive them from cascade of cutting terror for what the minimums should be, along with an estimated cost.

 

[Valheru]

Hmm. I'd throw in a Perception-Awareness check into it, giving the Exalt a maximum number of dice to be converted equal to the number of successes gained on the roll, and give it a flat cost of 1 Willpower, 5 Motes.


^.^ But, I never was very good at cost issues. The roll though seems to be something natural that the charm should do.

 

[Joseph]

Hmm. I'd throw in a Perception-Awareness check into it, giving the Exalt a maximum number of dice to be converted equal to the number of successes gained on the roll, and give it a flat cost of 1 Willpower, 5 Motes.
^.^ But, I never was very good at cost issues. The roll though seems to be something natural that the charm should do.

It starts to make it really complicated.

 

[Persell]

I’d give it a flat cost of 1willpower 6 motes.


Make it Supplemental. Requires: melee 5 essence 3 or 4.


And limit the successes converted to manipulation+melee.

 

[Seiraryu]

Melee 5


Essence 4


Cost 5 motes, 1 Willpower.

 

[Valheru]

Hmm. I'd throw in a Perception-Awareness check into it, giving the Exalt a maximum number of dice to be converted equal to the number of successes gained on the roll, and give it a flat cost of 1 Willpower, 5 Motes.
^.^ But, I never was very good at cost issues. The roll though seems to be something natural that the charm should do.

It starts to make it really complicated.

It only makes sense for the roll to be there, though.

 

[Joseph]

Hmm. I'd throw in a Perception-Awareness check into it, giving the Exalt a maximum number of dice to be converted equal to the number of successes gained on the roll, and give it a flat cost of 1 Willpower, 5 Motes.
^.^ But, I never was very good at cost issues. The roll though seems to be something natural that the charm should do.

It starts to make it really complicated.

It only makes sense for the roll to be there, though.

Not really, no.  Perception + Awareness for this is about as logical for Perception + Awareness before each Melee parry roll, to see if you notice the attack soon enough to start parrying.  Perhaps logical in real life, but not in Exalted.

 

[Haku1]

I still feel that there should be a logical limit on how many successes you can 'convert' in this manner.


Perhaps a limitation of essence. In which case, the cost would be lower.


Granted, the perception + awareness roll is a tad odd... it shouldn't really be necessary.

 

[Joseph]

I still feel that there should be a logical limit on how many successes you can 'convert' in this manner.
Perhaps a limitation of essence. In which case, the cost would be lower.


Granted, the perception + awareness roll is a tad odd... it shouldn't really be necessary.

Well, bear in mind that for the most part, these successes will only apply to damage.  Based on that, bear further in mind that if you roll 20 successes on your attack roll using Hungry Tiger, it doubles it with respect to damage to 40 successes; there is no logical limit that is reached by this incredibly low Charm.  Why, then, should there necessarily be one here?  Best case scenario is them rolling like 20 dodge successes and giving you about as many extra successes with regards to damage as Hungry Tiger would on a good roll anyway.

 

[Valheru]

Hmm. I'd throw in a Perception-Awareness check into it, giving the Exalt a maximum number of dice to be converted equal to the number of successes gained on the roll, and give it a flat cost of 1 Willpower, 5 Motes.
^.^ But, I never was very good at cost issues. The roll though seems to be something natural that the charm should do.

It starts to make it really complicated.

It only makes sense for the roll to be there, though.

Not really, no.  Perception + Awareness for this is about as logical for Perception + Awareness before each Melee parry roll, to see if you notice the attack soon enough to start parrying.  Perhaps logical in real life, but not in Exalted.

Bah. Be that way, then. I'll just watch the big boys write their charm mechanics.

 

[Joseph]

Hmm. I'd throw in a Perception-Awareness check into it, giving the Exalt a maximum number of dice to be converted equal to the number of successes gained on the roll, and give it a flat cost of 1 Willpower, 5 Motes.
^.^ But, I never was very good at cost issues. The roll though seems to be something natural that the charm should do.

It starts to make it really complicated.

It only makes sense for the roll to be there, though.

Not really, no.  Perception + Awareness for this is about as logical for Perception + Awareness before each Melee parry roll, to see if you notice the attack soon enough to start parrying.  Perhaps logical in real life, but not in Exalted.

Bah. Be that way, then. I'll just watch the big boys write their charm mechanics.

How about baking us some muffins?

 

[Valheru]

Hmm. I'd throw in a Perception-Awareness check into it, giving the Exalt a maximum number of dice to be converted equal to the number of successes gained on the roll, and give it a flat cost of 1 Willpower, 5 Motes.
^.^ But, I never was very good at cost issues. The roll though seems to be something natural that the charm should do.

It starts to make it really complicated.

It only makes sense for the roll to be there, though.

Not really, no.  Perception + Awareness for this is about as logical for Perception + Awareness before each Melee parry roll, to see if you notice the attack soon enough to start parrying.  Perhaps logical in real life, but not in Exalted.

Bah. Be that way, then. I'll just watch the big boys write their charm mechanics.

How about baking us some muffins?

Sure, I wouldn't recommend tasting my cooking, though. The last person who did..well..we won't talk about that.

 

[psychoph]

I could see limiting it by essence from the stand point of if it is like a great martial artist who has learned to anticipate or see the battle in their head before it actual happens (thinking of the movie Heor specifically), then it would be limited by their ability to percieve the future sword play.  In Exalted I have always gotten that this abiulity is a refelction of their esesnce, how intune withthe world aroud them they are.  So the character is essentially using their 6th sense to sense the flow of the persons essence to determine where to place the next strike.  Thus if you are less able to sense the flow of essence you ability to judge where the person will dodge next is less accurate.  


As however this charm is dealing solely with damage I could see it being up to double essence or essence plus willpower.

 

[Super Frog Saves Tokyo]

I suggest having botches count as successes for the dodge roll. So, if a solar uses this charm and anticipates his opponent performing some elegant dodge to avoid the attack, but instead trips on a rock or something, I think the solar should miss. After all, the solar knew exactly where to strike.

 

[jeremy]

supplemental


5 motes


essence 3


melee 5


preq:excellent strike and hungry tiger


this assumes blocking/parrying works as normal....

 

[Athrun the Bear]

I hope my input isn’t too late to be of use.  Your charm has not yet appeared in the Pending Submissions forum so I assume it is still under construction, but of course I could be mistaken.  I meant to do this last week, but it kept slipping my mind.  


I submit the following charm as an example of how I would construct one with the effects you are looking for.  Commentary follows after the charm.  This is loosely based off a similar Lunar charm that I put together several months back and was of course also inspired by Joseph’s description.  Oh...and I apologize for the flavor text (it’s pretty bad) and the name.  I’ve always been bad at naming.


---


Movement-Anticipating Strike


Exalt Type: Solar


Cost: 1 mote per 2 successes, 1 Willpower


Duration: Instant


Type: Supplemental


Minimum Melee: 5


Minimum Essence: 3


Prerequisite Charms: Reed in the Wind, Fire and Stones Strike


By reaching out with his mind and momentarily studying his opponent, a Solar is able to predict how that opponent will respond to an attack.  Based upon the Solar’s own knowledge of dodging and the Essence flows he perceives around the opponent, the Solar can actually make an opponent’s dodge work for him instead of against him.  The Solar begins his attack as normal to ensure that his opponent dodges in the manner he predicts, and then changes his weapons’ path mid-swing to take advantage of that dodge.


The character may convert his opponent’s dodge successes into his own automatic attack successes at a cost of 1 mote per 2 successes.  If the opponent rolls an odd number of successes, the final success may still be converted, but at full price (1 mote).  The maximum number of motes that can be spent on this charm for any given attack is equal to the character’s Perception + Permanent Essence .  Perfect dodge’s still behave as normal and are not affected by this charm.  An automatic (but not perfect) dodge is ignored; the attack proceeds as if no dodge attempt was made.  This charm must be activated when an attack is declared, costing a single Willpower point.  Motes are not spent to convert successes until after the dodge is made.  This charm can be activated a number of times per turn equal to the character’s melee score.  The use of this technique can not be detected without the use of a charm that allows the opponent to detect and identify essence manipulation.


---


And there you have it.  If you would prefer a flat cost, I would recommend 4 motes and 1 Willpower.  As for the cost as it stands, it was inspired by other charms with similar types of effects that let you convert (or buy) successes at a rate of 2 / mote spent.  The Willpower point was added to simulate the studying of your opponent and the flows of Essence around him...and to keep this rather powerful charm from being used for every stinkin’ attack.  I would consider an Essence 5 charm that allowed you to use this same effect at a cost of 1 motes per success, but without the Willpower cost, as acceptable.


The Instant duration should be rather obvious.  The charm’s type, however, is up for debate.  Initially I assumed that Supplemental was the only way to go, but now I’m also considering Reflexive.  With it being Supplemental, if you put it in a combo with an Extra Action charm you would have to activate it for every attack.  Making it Reflexive, however, would allow you to place it in such a combo and still be able to activate it only when you wanted.  I chose to retain it’s Supplemental status for two reasons.  First, and most importantly, Reflexive charms are supposed to be things that you can do without any real thought, hence the name “reflexive.â€

 

[Joseph]

I hope my input isn’t too late to be of use.  Your charm has not yet appeared in the Pending Submissions forum so I assume it is still under construction' date=' but of course I could be mistaken.  I meant to do this last week, but it kept slipping my mind.  [/quote']
I didn't plan on posting it, and I don't plan on posting anything until our proper submission system gets up and running.  If you would like to post one based on such an idea, feel free.

 

[Athrun the Bear]

Ah...well, no harm , no foul.  I enjoyed the fifteen minutes of thinking about Exalted, if nothing else.


I was wondering...do you eventually intend to archive your Lunar Illusion Charms here?  I seem to remember them being somewhere else on the net (aside from the old EC), so perhaps not.  Just curious.  Like a proper parasite, I yoinked them for my own usage long ago, so whether or not you do is of little real importance to me, but I like the idea of them being open to the community as a whole again.  They are awesome.

 

[Joseph]

I was wondering...do you eventually intend to archive your Lunar Illusion Charms here?  I seem to remember them being somewhere else on the net (aside from the old EC)' date=' so perhaps not.  Just curious.  Like a proper parasite, I yoinked them for my own usage long ago, so whether or not you do is of little real importance to me, but I like the idea of them being open to the community as a whole again.  They are awesome.[/quote']
Maybe I should, if I can find them.  I seem to have lost a lot of my old stuff lately.  Maybe someone has them saved and could present them if I cannot find them?

 

[Athrun the Bear]

I've got 'em if you can't find them.  Well...I have the first three tiers (general illusion, combat illusions, illusory emotions 'n stuff), if you ever made anything after that, though, I missed it.  I was gone from the EC for quite a while...I decided to check it out again one day just to find that it was dead.

 

[Persell]

Without limitations, I believe this is worth Essence 6 requirement.


Consider this and you'll understand:


The target has Flow Like Blood, 13 dice to dodge melee attacks (something any sorcerer of mine would have past maybe 60 or 100 XPs in Exalted). This rises to 23 dice when he sees you start up a combo.


You, being a bright person, comboed the Charm with Excellent Strike (10 dice), Hungry Tiger Technique and Leaping Tiger Attack. The combo would cost 7 XPs + the ability minimum of your Charm. What are you gonna dish out, 100 damage? And what if there is another Charm in the combo that does the same with parry attempts?


Of course, if you have a cost of 1 willpower + 1 mote per die reversed (unpaid dice remaining dodge successes), perhaps limited to Perception + Melee, the requirements could go down by a long shot, and I think that it would be much more reasonable. Essence 3 Melee 5 would seem very reasonable to me then (Essence 3 Melee 3 if limited to Perception + Melee).

 

[jeremy]

perhaps the target should just block.


there should be a charm to make an attack undodge-able that would also be a preq for this


also hopping dodges should still work, unless you intead for extra movement to be part of this charm.