So... you got the mandate of heaven...

[cyl]

and ???


I've just read a few books again looking for details about the MoH and its role and what it could bring to the newborn celestials... and... well... it kinda became clear that this supposed divine right to rule has been unofficially revoked, so the solars & lunars are basically on their own.


The gods are still inclined to respect the solars, but the lawgivers can no longer enforce their commands to them because of their status, and IIRC the Elementals are not bound to respect the lawgivers (but they can be summoned).


Which basically reinforces the role of the Eclipses because they can get in almost anywhere and talk to about anyone.


Could there be a way to see the "divine right" reborn and revigorated ?!

 

[Fabricati]

I dunno, most of the Celestial Bureaucracy REALLY didn't like the Shogunate and its children,the Scarlet Empire and Lookshy, sort of suffer for it; the best way to bring the "right" back into "Divine Right" is probably just have various gods (who do not, by the way, suffer the Great Curse) champion the Solars/Lunars for their own personal ends, as opposed to whoever's hanging around in the Center.


I see the bureaucratic situation in Yu-Shan and elsewhere as very much a series of stalemates; most people are looking for weaknesses, as opposed to just burying people in a barrage of forms. Solars at the very least can change this about, discovering weaknesses.


Of course, you could do it the stupid way and conquer Heaven, too...

 

[magnificentmomo]

Where did it say that the MoH was revoked? I thought Heaven just had its hands tied in regards to the Usurpation; and the Lunars are never allowed to matter, so their exile isn't a matter of consequence.


I remember somewhere there was some law still in place to the effect that killing a celestial exalt was illegal, maybe just for gods.


From my understanding, many terrestrial gods and elementals will ignore a young solar, even if they tote the MoH, because they know there is a very slim chance that Heaven will be able to do anything, but the MoH still belongs to the Solars or Celestials depending on where you read.

 

[cyl]

Well it was not revoked, it was unofficially revoked since it's no longer enforced by the forces of heaven. The Celestial Censors (strangely... all elementals) are slacking big time when they aren't rotten to the bone.


I read somewhere that the MoH was written into the core of the gods, so they treat the exalts with the proper respect in all things... it's just that simple, if a law is not enforced or is deprived of effects, it's like it doesn't exist.


Practically the solars no longer have the "divine right" status, though officially they still have the title.


It's like having a parliamentarian regime changed to an empire... and the emperor keeps a puppet as Prime Minister... okay he's still Prime Minister, but he has neither effective power nor the means to enforce his politics.


So, the solars also have an absolute necessity to put the gods back in the ranks if they want to reform Creation.


Though the gods can be bribed, they do not depend on man for their survival (while man does need the gods & spirits working), and they are vastly more powerful than mortals.


Sad thing is, spiritual politics are vastly more complex than their mortal counterpart... so there is a great chance that solars trying to "set things right" from their own point of view will actually screw things up even further, creating greater chaos instead of order.

 

[Skycroft]

It is implied, not least in the text of the spell Hidden Judges Of The Secret Flame it the White Treatise, that the Solar's lost the Mandate of Heaven when the UCS turned his face away from them in disgust at their excesses. Specifically, it says that disobeying an Exalt is no longer a crime against Divine Law.


The Unconquered Sun was the one who gave his Chosen the right to rule in the first place, and he was also the one who took it away. It seems to me that if you want your full, Heaven-Mandated, official status back, you'd best talk to him. Failing that, you can do it the way the Dragon-Blooded did: tell the Gods "Do what I say or I'll punch you"

 

[Virjigorm]

It seems to me that the Mandate is still in effect, but the Solars have not been around to do their job for a long time. With the Sidereals working to keep them down, there have not been any Solars who lived long enough to take up the reins in centuries. As the Age of Sorrows sees more Solars returning and a better survivability rate, they could begin to reassert their authority.

 

[cyl]

Well, yes and no.


The Mandate is still "active", but the status apparently doesn't mean anything anymore, the solars have no longer a status of divine authority... the gods will still treat them with a certain courtesy & respect but that's about it.


Hence the title of this thread and my example of the puppet Prime Minister.

 

[Virjigorm]

Many of the gods in the bureaucracy may feel that they can disrespect Solars without fear of retribution, even if the laws are still in effect. There are many other Heavenly laws that get broken regularly by those divinities who think they can get away with it. Any law is only as powerful as the group enforcing it. Also, there are plenty of Solar leadership and statesmanship type charms that still work just fine, so their magic hasn't been revoked.


I take the opinion that, even though the Mandate is on Heaven's books, the most powerful group in the enforcement business is the Five-score Fellowship. Even the Gold faction doesn't want to hand the reins to Solars entirely, and the Bronze works actively to keep the Lawgivers weak and/or gone. I suspect that the Solars themselves always enforced their own Mandate in times past, and these days are not powerful or unified enough to reestablish their authority.


One could also reason that when the Unconquered Sun handed down the Creation Ruling Mandate to his chosen, he gave them a great and heavy responsibility, not a magic easy button. It would be very in character for the US to politely remind the Deliberative of the near-unimaginable power he already gave them and offer to find suitable replacements if they couldn't handle the job.


The mention in the spell description of Hidden Judges of the Secret Flame suggests that the Mandate has weakened. This could, however, be taken as a smaller change in Divine law. Maybe it is not illegal to disobey Exalts, but it could just be a change in rules to stop Heaven from having to punish innocent victims of Solar depravity. I'd call that one a toss up, use it as you like.


If the Solars in the First Age were relying on a powerful magical Mandate that made everyone listen to them, then I'd say it is obvious it was revoked prior to the Usurpation. They may be able to earn it back, but the US doesn't seem to care, so the chances of getting his attention away from the Games to come make a ruling are slim.


Personally, I think this take on the Mandate makes it cheap and silly. I can't see why some extra magical compulsion on the entire world would be necessary to enforce the authority of a group that already rules the world legitimately and has a ton of powerful magic anyway. I would argue that the early years of Deliberative rule were spent consolidating control and legislating rules in both Creation and Heaven to support the newly established hierarchy of Exalted leadership. After that, I was up to the machinery of Creation's Solar-led government to enforce the laws that they made.

 

[Skycroft]

Also, there are plenty of Solar leadership and statesmanship type charms that still work just fine, so their magic hasn't been revoked.

Those are Charms. Charms cannot be revoked. They're an intrinsic aspect of the Exaltation. The Mandate of heaven is a separate, external thing the UCS gave the Solars in addition to their innate abilities.

Personally, I think this take on the Mandate makes it cheap and silly. I can't see why some extra magical compulsion on the entire world would be necessary to enforce the authority of a group that already rules the world legitimately and has a ton of powerful magic anyway.

I don't think of it as an extra magical compulsion. Rather, I see the Mandate of Heaven as the thing that puts the word "legitimately" in 'rules the world legitimately'. The Solars would be the Princes of the Earth with or without it; their own power ensures that. But the Mandate is what makes the gods serve happily, instead of unhappily like they do now under the Sidereals. Or at least, the gods think its their duty to serve the Solars whether they like it or not, but do not believe they have such a duty to the Sidereals or Dragonblooded, which is why the Celestial Bureaucracy is so inefficient in the Second Age. They follow the Sidereals out of respect or fear, but they followed the Solars out of duty.


The gods, you see, are very big on rules, regulation, and things in their proper place (The Celestial bureaucracy is, after all, a bureaucracy). The Solars have the right to rule because Ignis Divine said so (A Yozi apologist may show up now to say 'And who the hell gave him the right to decide who the rightful rulers are?" I will just point out that the gods think he has that right, and that's all that matters for the present discussion. Let's not open that can of worms). It's not a magical compulsion (in particular, it shouldn't have any game mechanical effect), but it is in the very nature of gods to do what the UCS tells them, and gods have a far harder time going against their nature than humans do (not that it is impossible, mind you, it is perfectly possible for a god to say "Screw you, Solars", and several do; its just much rarer for gods to rebel against Divine law than it is for humans to break the law). The ones who possess the Mandate of Heaven are the ones who are supposed to be in charge, where "supposed" doesn't mean very much from an objective perspective, but means a hell of a lot to the gods.


Think of it as the old idea of the Divine Right of Kings. Or, in these more modern times, the fact that we consider the "legitimate" ruler to be the one elected by the people (to the extent that even dictators like to pretend that they were chosen by the people). To the gods, if you don't have the Creation-Ruling Mandate, then you're not the rightful rulers. Period. The Sidereals tried to get the Mandate passed to the Dragonblooded and failed. It doesn't matter that late first age Solars were ego-maniacal jackasses, they were the designated rulers of the world, and the Dragonblooded were usurpers. Think of every story you have heard of the true heir to the throne being deposed and him or his son returning to take his rightful place. It is that kind of "rightful" that the MoH grants, and it is that theme that floods the core book and all the fluff on Solars.


As I said before, however, there are hints that the Solars no longer have this legitimacy since Sol Invictus turned His back on them. Many gods still respect the Solars, and may still obey them (and many more despise the Dragonblooded and/or Sidereals), but they may no longer see it as their duty to obey them. I, personally, don't care much for the term "rightful', and would rather be obeyed out of respect than some imagined duty, so the loss of the Mandate doesn't bother me (or my characters, rather) much. The Solars may have a bit of a harder time ruling Creation this time around though (not much harder, since they're Solars, but still). That might even be a good thing, forcing them to compromise a little... though they have enough power to get their way anyway, so its kind of a moot point.


To the gods, though, legitimacy comes from the UCS. He's the one (in their minds, at least) who gets to decide who has the right to rule. So, like I said, if you want the Mandate back, talk to Him. Good luck getting His attention, though, He's kind of busy right now...

 

[cyl]

Yup there is no longer a compulsion to follow the order of the solars for the gods nowadays, but there is a compulsion of deference towards them and making them acknowledging the solars as VIPs.


In the old days however they had the MoH status and no god would cross them as the divine law of heaven was strictly applied...


So that was exactly my point, even though they are still treated as VIPs, the solars no longer have the official "MoH status", are practically on their own, and the gods can just politely say "no" to their requests / orders... so taking back Creation has to be done either through alliances (and right now the solars have very few to offer, only ultra loyalist gods / desperately interested are likely to help them) or using coercion (affirming the point of the Bronze Faction:"solars are tyrants") but they can no longer claim rulership by divine right, unless the Sun himself reinstate it... and that's not about to happen tomorrow.


Sick sad world ! :twisted:

 

[Virjigorm]

Also, there are plenty of Solar leadership and statesmanship type charms that still work just fine, so their magic hasn't been revoked.

Those are Charms. Charms cannot be revoked. They're an intrinsic aspect of the Exaltation. The Mandate of heaven is a separate, external thing the UCS gave the Solars in addition to their innate abilities.

Actually, there is precedent. MoEP: Sidereals and DoTFA describe the high-Essence Sidereal charms that were revoked after the Primordial War. There is no reason to believe this couldn't be done to other Celestials.


As far as the rest, I mostly agree. What I take issue with is the sometimes-posed argument that the Mandate has a mechanical effect and "allows" Solars to rule. The idea that the US turning his back gives the gods reason to believe the Mandate is no longer in effect is spot on in my opinion. It's like a mafia family; the Solars are like a favored lieutenant who had the Don's ear for a long time, but he screwed up and now he's on the shit-list. No one has said his authority is in question, but the underlings and rivals are bolder because they think the Don won't back up his fallen golden boy.

 

[Jimborg]

Actually, there is precedent. MoEP: Sidereals and DoTFA describe the high-Essence Sidereal charms that were revoked after the Primordial War. There is no reason to believe this couldn't be done to other Celestials.

In Glories:Maidens, it was mentioned that those Charms were sealed away because they screwed with the Loom something fierce. Because the Charms of other Celestials don't interface with the Loom of fate directly (with a couple of exceptions among Infernals and Alchemicals), I don't think they would be subject to the same restrictions.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Oh...I wouldn't be so sure about that. Being able to promote people to Heroic on whim, or add people to the Creature of Darkness list on whim...both available to your friendly neighborhood Solars...might be just a tiny bit troublesome to the loom if overused. For that matter, one of the reasons stated for the Sidereals becoming...inclined to consider the Usurpation was Twilights actively going out of their way to screw with the loom to measure the effects...if things like that were allowed to go on long enough I'm pretty sure some charms might find themselves added to the 'No use for you' list. Assuming that the charms of other Exalts can be limited as the Sidereals have, which is not certain. The odd restrictions they have on charm invention and the like, what with the whole, get the Maiden's permission bit...make it somewhat unlikely others are so likely to be restricted.


Unless UCS decided to put similar restrictions on his own minions...if he could look up from his crack habit long enough.

 

[Virjigorm]

My point is only that there is reason to entertain the idea that charms of any Celestial Exalt could be revoked or sealed from use by the appropriate Incarna. There is no reason to believe this has been done, but if a reason existed and the Incarnae were so inclined, it stands to reason that it is within their power to revoke, suspend, or even eradicate charms from their Exalts.

 

[Brickwall]

Sealed away isn't the same as revoked, and Sidereals are definitely a special case. Most Exalts' Charms affect Creation, while Sidereals affect the Loom of Fate, which is more akin to a great big computer that runs Creation. There are only certain programs that will do anything, and the Maidens password-protected the ones that were causing too many bugs. Doing anything that causes bugs gets the maintenance software pissed at you, because in this computer, it's sentient. But the programs are still there, and could conceivably have their passwords lowered again.


I'm not saying you can't make Incarnae able to take Charms away (though I severely doubt the non-Maidens pay attention any more), but I wouldn't call it an extension of the principle that allows the Maidens to take the old Sidereal Charms away. It'd be different.


On my part, I don't think the Incarnae should be able to take Charms away. Charms are techniques that hone the Essence of the Exaltation, which take advantage of the Essence's particular nature (sunny, moony, etc). They cannot be disabled without, well, disrupting the Exaltation's Essence, which has a lot of problems. Besides which, if the Sun could take Charms away from the Lawgivers, he probably would have done it a few times during the First Age. A lot of those Charms are unquestionably evil (like mind-raping your Lunar Mate, for example). And that kind of destroys the plot of the game, don't you think?

 

[Virjigorm]

I prefer to think that the Exaltations and charms that go with them all fall under the purview of their patron Incarna. These are the greatest of the gods operating power-tools invested with their very natures.

 

[Skycroft]

I prefer to think that the Exaltations and charms that go with them all fall under the purview of their patron Incarna. These are the greatest of the gods operating power-tools invested with their very natures.

Except that there are aspects of the Exaltations that even the greatest of the gods cannot interfere with. The Exaltations are, by design, impossible for the gods to tamper with (at least while they are inside their hosts). The gods cannot command the Exalted. If they could, then the Exalted would have been useless for their intended purpose, which was to bypass the geas placed on the gods by the Primordials. I think the same logic applies here. If the gods had the capability to take away their Chosen's power (even only some Charms), then the Primordials would simply have ordered the gods to depower the Exalted and the Primordial War would have been impossible.


The Sidereals, as already noted, are a special case. It was less that their Charms were taken away than that the Loom was changed to refuse them access.