Sidereal Charm Independence

[Lord Heru]

It is mentioned that if the Gods possessed direct power over their Chosen then all the Primordials would have had to do was order them to collect the Shards and return it to them. This was clearly not something that they wanted and so they built in no direct connection.


Except for the Sidereals it seems, for they need the Five Maidens for Charm approval in both the creation of new charms and the use of some older charms. Their very power is based on the permission they get from the Gods. But wouldn't that permission be removed by a single order from the Primordials - revoke the Sidereal access.


Isn't this a liability in a war against titanic beings? And doesn't this go against the main concept of the Chosen as independent beings?

 

[Jukashi]

Thing is, those charms that they need permission for? They're Sidereal Charms. And what do Sidereal Charms not work against? Things that are Outside Fate.


Now, what's Outside Fate? Yozis, Neverborn, and Autocthon! In other words; every primordial except Gaia.


For sidereals, it didn't matter whether they needed permission or not, because they were only using Martial Arts Charms against the primordials anyway. Their own Charms were, most likely, designed to help with their own forces; as shadowy puppeteers, Sidereals excel at keeping reign over their own people... including the elimination of any traitors.


But yes, the Maidens could have been commanded to revoke permission for the sidereals to use some of their most powerful Charms. They could still use the rest of them, though, and their Martial Arts. The Maidens could not retake the shards, nor the knowledge of the Charms they had already taught to them.

 

[Lord Heru]

Thing is, those charms that they need permission for? They're Sidereal Charms. And what do Sidereal Charms not work against? Things that are Outside Fate.
Now, what's Outside Fate? Yozis, Neverborn, and Autocthon! In other words; every primordial except Gaia.


For sidereals, it didn't matter whether they needed permission or not, because they were only using Martial Arts Charms against the primordials anyway. Their own Charms were, most likely, designed to help with their own forces; as shadowy puppeteers, Sidereals excel at keeping reign over their own people... including the elimination of any traitors.


But yes, the Maidens could have been commanded to revoke permission for the sidereals to use some of their most powerful Charms. They could still use the rest of them, though, and their Martial Arts. The Maidens could not retake the shards, nor the knowledge of the Charms they had already taught to them.

First I want to say that I find it somewhat annoying that they are forced to utilize charms outside of their natural type to defeat their enemies. None of the other Exalted types need to do that - Martial Arts aid them, yes, but it does not dominate them. This difference is annoying but not really material to the discussion at hand.


Your right, some of their charms would not work at their most powerful level to those outside fate - which, as you said, includes Primordials. But that doesn't make the charms useless just weaker. Willpower, compulsions, and transportations are removed but not any other effects.


So wouldn't the original charms have more of the other effects compared to those that no longer function.


But your right, unlike the Solars, Lunars and Terrestrials the Sidereals rarely went into direct battle against the foes of Creation. Rather they organized, trained and enhanced their allies. Planned ahead and probably also negotiated with the gods that could help them in indirect ways. All behind the scenes, or at least not directly in the front lines.


See, that is my point. Even if their was only one charm that could have been revoked, such a think flies against the fact of the independence of the Exalted. No other caste needs to listen, obey or ask permission of their patrons to do what they do. Only the Sidereals need that.


It doesn't truly make sense in my view.

 

[Flagg]

I always thought that the prohibition against new Sidereal Charms was not only a bit strange and arbitrary, but also stifles a lot of potential creative input into the game.


Had I ever used Sidereals extensively as PCs in 1E, I'd be inclined to disregard it entirely, and I' m curious to see if it survives to 2E.

 

[Lord Heru]

I always thought that the prohibition against new Sidereal Charms was not only a bit strange and arbitrary, but also stifles a lot of potential creative input into the game.
Had I ever used Sidereals extensively as PCs in 1E, I'd be inclined to disregard it entirely, and I' m curious to see if it survives to 2E.

I agree completely because it doesn't actually restrict anything. It directly states that an ST is free to make a Charm and then say it was their all along. But isn't this the way everything is.


If a Solar or a Lunar try and make a Charm they need to aks the ST for permission. If they gain the permission they then have to spent the XP to purchase it.


So in the Sidereal case a player makes a Charm, the ST approves it, and then the ST says the character discovered that it was hidden but that it always existed.


In the Solar case the character creates the Charm, in the Sidereal case the player creates the charm. In the end this is exactly the same. I, personally, like the concept of the character creating the Charm it makes it individual and makes it unique.


It also makes MA more important than normal Charms, and this is somethign I do not like. No other Exalted type is so dependent on Martial Arts as Sidereals are - a not right 'balance.'


Its a stupid nonsense rule that is artificially limiting for no good reason. And thus has no place in Exalted.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I always took the prohibition as a reflection on the Sidereals being an integral part of the Celestial Bureaucracy--and the prohibition was more about them following orders.


Solars and Lunars, while they have their place in the Creation, they aren't really a part of the Bureaucracy as much. They can answer to it, make petitions, even serve an office, but that's not really their purpose--there's is "on the ground" and their Celestial Masters are looser. The Maidens, they're hard task Mistresses.


The Dragon Bloods, they're sort of on their own where their Masters are concerned.


Sidereals though, they are a part of a structure, and are bound by it. I think that it thematically places them very well with that prohibition.


But that's me. Your results may vary.