Self-Ridden

[Jukashi]

I an Ability-Charm using Exalt was somehow turned into a horse, would you let them use Ride Charms on themselves? If not, would you permit Ride Charms to be used on them at all? Would you let a Solar use Ride Charms on his horse-totem Lunar mate?

 

[Smeggedoff]

hmm, depending on the actual workings of the charm yes and no. anything to reinforce the horse, increase its movements speed etc sure


anything involving making attacks or keeping balance while on horseback, no, not really.


The lunar mate thing is something I've considered myself, it all depends on the individual lunar whether they'd let themselves be ridden at all, and even if they consented it would be a tenuous agreement at best (downright slavery at worst) and other lunars probably wouldn't feel to kindly about it either.


and again, depends on the charm. anything that would take away the lunars control I would think would outrage them, but things like keeping balance etc would probably be fine


plus it might be a good Idea to warn the lunar what you were doing


mind you, it all depends on how strong the bond is I suppose

 

[Nemal]

The lunar mate thing is something I've considered myself, it all depends on the individual lunar whether they'd let themselves be ridden at all, and even if they consented it would be a tenuous agreement at best (downright slavery at worst) and other lunars probably wouldn't feel to kindly about it either.

... what? ô.o


Lunar: "Hey, buddy, I'm hurt. How about some of that nice Solar Healing?"


Solar: "I AM NOT YOUR SLAVE!"


Lunar: "Uh... no. That's not the idea at all. I was asking? See, 'cuz I'm hurt?"


Solar: "NO! I SHALL NOT CONSENT TO BEING USED BY YOU, AND I ASSURE YOU THE REST OF THE DELIBERATIVE WILL HEAR OF THIS!"


Lunar: "Are you limit breaking?"


Solar (embarassed) "... yeah, just a little though."


No, I think the whole "It's demeaning to be ridden" is kind of ridiculous. The Lunar has the ability to carry someone else far faster than they would be able to move by themselves; doing so is not demeaning in the least! It's much more "Okay, slowpoke, get on."


Why would other Lunars be offended by this? It's not like the rider is forcing them to eat hay and sleep in the stable or anything.


Besides, as far as I've been able to see, most Ride Charms are direct enhancements on the mount, which I doubt the Lunar would object to.


Personally, I'd allow it. Lunars are the greatest mounts in Creation (should they wish to be), and Solars the greatest riders (should they wish to be), so I think it's thematically awesome for a Solar/Lunar couple to be mind-blowingly effective together.

 

[Smeggedoff]

... what? ô.o


Lunar: "Hey, buddy, I'm hurt. How about some of that nice Solar Healing?"


Solar: "I AM NOT YOUR SLAVE!"


Lunar: "Uh... no. That's not the idea at all. I was asking? See, 'cuz I'm hurt?"


Solar: "NO! I SHALL NOT CONSENT TO BEING USED BY YOU, AND I ASSURE YOU THE REST OF THE DELIBERATIVE WILL HEAR OF THIS!"


Lunar: "Are you limit breaking?"


Solar (embarassed) "... yeah, just a little though."

What?

No, I think the whole "It's demeaning to be ridden" is kind of ridiculous. The Lunar has the ability to carry someone else far faster than they would be able to move by themselves; doing so is not demeaning in the least! It's much more "Okay, slowpoke, get on."


Why would other Lunars be offended by this? It's not like the rider is forcing them to eat hay and sleep in the stable or anything.


Besides, as far as I've been able to see, most Ride Charms are direct enhancements on the mount, which I doubt the Lunar would object to.


Personally, I'd allow it. Lunars are the greatest mounts in Creation (should they wish to be), and Solars the greatest riders (should they wish to be), so I think it's thematically awesome for a Solar/Lunar couple to be mind-blowingly effective together.

I'm sure any lunar would love being described as one of the greatest mounts in creation, no really.


mainly it's because plenty of the lunars remember what it was like to be under the thumb of the solar deliberative in the first age (just ask Lilith) and probably don't want it to happen again.


even if a lunar was well treated in the first age and is happy to work as a personal battle mount to their rediscovered solar bond there are lots of lunars in the silver pact who DO remember, several of them who were actually there, they'd not be too happy to see what they view as the whole thing happening again


(but maybe that's a good story for your characters, a lunar and solar wantin to be together despite other lunars hating it, v shakespeare)


And a lunar giving a solar a ride somewhere just because it'd be faster? usre that works in the case a lunar going somewhere and wanting the solars help, but a solar asking a lunar for a lift across creation when the lunar wasn't plannign on going anywhere?


Solar: hey buddy, saddle up, I need to get to nexus


Lunar: that's nice, have fun


Solar: no, you're literally wearing the saddle, hurry up I wanna make good time


Lunar: WTF? what makes you think I'm fine with that?


solar: it's faster...


(this is a misnomer anyway, I doubt any lunar would consent to wearing a saddle, it's bareback for you buddy)

 

[Brickwall]

What's with the argument? Solars ride their Lunar mates all the time. I mean, they use the word "mate" for a reason.

 

[Arthur]

I an Ability-Charm using Exalt was somehow turned into a horse, would you let them use Ride Charms on themselves? If not, would you permit Ride Charms to be used on them at all? Would you let a Solar use Ride Charms on his horse-totem Lunar mate?

There is nothing ruled about that, as far as I can tell. Everything that qualifies as a mount would, in my opinion, qualify as a target for Ride Charms. To be a mount, I'd say it's necessary to, at least: a) Be an animal or device that carries a rider, b) Be controlled in a somewhat similar way to the way a horse is controlled. Something that became a horse could, IMO, be target for such charms, but you couldn't target yourself because there is no "ride" happening, you are simply walking or running in your present form, that happens to be a horse.


Some charms could be off-limits, though.

 

[Smeggedoff]

What's with the argument? Solars ride their Lunar mates all the time. I mean, they use the word "mate" for a reason.

if that's a crude pun, bravo


if it's not


bleargh, whatever the only reason I don't think solars are saddling lunars all ove rthe place is because I meantioned this as part of a character concept on the official forums a while back and got flamed to hell and back for considerin that a lunar would be ridden


it's exalted, do what you want

 

[Brickwall]

Crude humor aside, a Lunar might consent to acting as a mount, and it might not. Lunars are people, and people are different. There are plenty humans out there who would be glad to carry a friend somewhere on their back, or to be their faithful companion in battle. The position a mount has is not really demeaning by nature. Plenty of heroes are depicted as treating their steeds as honored companions, not as slaves. Of course, given that a Solar gains little benefit from riding his companion over riding a horse in nearly every scenario, he'd probably need a damn good reason to have the Lunar be carrying him instead of doing much more useful things. Or maybe the Lunar could just feel like it once in a while. Some Lunars might like to be ridden occasionally. Like other athletic activities, there are probably some who treat it as enjoyable.


Most Ride Charms that aid a mount's physical or magical capabilities would probably work. Some that aid the connection between the rider and mount might. The ones that give the rider more control over the mount somehow would probably not, since those generally assume that there is no sentience providing what the Charm is supposed to be providing.


And if you read this post with a lewd mind, you're probably either laughing or throwing up by now.

 

[Smeggedoff]

or just grinning stupidly


yeah, that's pretty much what I meant, just put more eloquently


*slinks away*

 

[Kindle]

Crude humor aside, a Lunar might consent to acting as a mount, and it might not. Lunars are people, and people are different. There are plenty humans out there who would be glad to carry a friend somewhere on their back, or to be their faithful companion in battle. The position a mount has is not really demeaning by nature. Plenty of heroes are depicted as treating their steeds as honored companions, not as slaves. Of course, given that a Solar gains little benefit from riding his companion over riding a horse in nearly every scenario, he'd probably need a damn good reason to have the Lunar be carrying him instead of doing much more useful things. Or maybe the Lunar could just feel like it once in a while. Some Lunars might like to be ridden occasionally. Like other athletic activities, there are probably some who treat it as enjoyable.
Most Ride Charms that aid a mount's physical or magical capabilities would probably work. Some that aid the connection between the rider and mount might. The ones that give the rider more control over the mount somehow would probably not, since those generally assume that there is no sentience providing what the Charm is supposed to be providing.


And if you read this post with a lewd mind, you're probably either laughing or throwing up by now.

My Lunar was just recently used as a mount by his Solar bonded mate. He's a Fullmoon and would never have consented to it normally because he sees it as demeaning to be used as a mount, especially when the solar in question had plenty of money to buy a mount of his own and was only asking out of convenience. Unfortunately, he used social charms, along with charismatic arguments to convince/force my character to accept him as his mount. By the time he "needed" me as his mount, my character was practically begging him to get on....It was humiliating, but my character was "convinced" it was for the better, so...


btw: there is a passage somewhere in the 1st ed. Lunar book that brings up this very subject (though not the charm us). I'll post the page, or possibly quotes from it, if its short enough, when/if I can find the passage.

 

[Arthur]

The current discussion is very interesting, but it takes the space that should be used to discuss the thread's original question. Maybe this discussion should be moved to another thread so that the original question can be discussed and answered?

 

[Kindle]

Hmmm....I wasn't able to find where they speak of Solars using Lunars as mounts as quickly as I had hoped. I thought it was an excerpt, or side-note somewhere in the first ed. book,but, if it was, I wasn't able to find it. Either its buried somewhere deep in the text, which will be more difficult to find, or it's in another book entirely (maybe even the 2nd ed. Lunar book, though I swear I had read it a looong time ago, well before 2nd ed.). Where ever it is, I know I read about it somewhere. Hopefully I'll be able to find it. ops:

 

[Kindle]

The current discussion is very interesting, but it takes the space that should be used to discuss the thread's original question. Maybe this discussion should be moved to another thread so that the original question can be discussed and answered?

my apologies ops: ops:


On the OP's subject, I agree with Arthur. I'd think that most ride charms would work on a shape changed exalt, be it Lunar or otherwise, as long as the charm doesn't force them to do something that is against their will, since they are sentient. Since some of the ride charms assume that your mount isn't sentient, they tend to place the control in the riders hands. As long as the charm doesn't do this, I'd think it would work. I don't see why you couldn't use a charm to keep yourself from falling off, or to increase his speed, but I can't see you using a charm to prevent your mount from taking damage, or making him fearless. Ultimately, though, it's up to your ST to decide what works and what doesn't, since I can see parts of certain charms working, while other parts of the same charm might not work (i.e. Master Horseman's Technique).


I also wouldn't let them use ride charms on themselves, since they aren't riding, they are just running. However, as long as they can still wield essence, I'd rule that other movement charms would be fine to use (along with most of their other charms that don't involve using a weapon, or speaking). I can see it now, a horse using Mountain-Crossing Leap Technique, or even Monkey Leap Technique...that would be cool. :lol:

 

[Smeggedoff]

hmm, turn into yeddim, activate graceful crane stance, balance on bamboo


cue everyones head exploding

 

[Nemal]

<Funny skit about Solar overreacting to a request for healing>

What?

The point was to illustrate that anyone can overreact to a request for help.


Lunar faster than Solar.


Lunar can carry Solar faster than Solar can move on his own.


If the Lunar and the Solar need to -get- somewhere, the Solar asking the Lunar to take him is just that, a request for help. The Lunar refusing to do so is no different from the Solar refusing to heal the Lunar on "I'm not your healbot!" grounds.

<Stuff pointing out that Lunars make for awesome mounts>

I'm sure any lunar would love being described as one of the greatest mounts in creation, no really.

Right. Is it demeaning that they were described as, say, the best diggers of Creation?


The best hunters of Creation?


The best grazers of creation?


The best guardians of creation?


Why is riding a special case?

mainly it's because plenty of the lunars remember what it was like to be under the thumb of the solar deliberative in the first age (just ask Lilith) and probably don't want it to happen again.

Ok. That's that particular Lunar's problem.

even if a lunar was well treated in the first age and is happy to work as a personal battle mount to their rediscovered solar bond there are lots of lunars in the silver pact who DO remember, several of them who were actually there, they'd not be too happy to see what they view as the whole thing happening again
(but maybe that's a good story for your characters, a lunar and solar wantin to be together despite other lunars hating it, v shakespeare)

So how about the vast majority of Lunars who never even saw the First Age?

And a lunar giving a solar a ride somewhere just because it'd be faster? usre that works in the case a lunar going somewhere and wanting the solars help, but a solar asking a lunar for a lift across creation when the lunar wasn't plannign on going anywhere?
Solar: hey buddy, saddle up, I need to get to nexus


Lunar: that's nice, have fun


Solar: no, you're literally wearing the saddle, hurry up I wanna make good time


Lunar: WTF? what makes you think I'm fine with that?


solar: it's faster...

Lunar: Yo, healing bitch, got wounds here.


Solar: I see. You should probably rest then.


Lunar: No, you don't get it, you're going to lick them better now.


Solar: WTF? What makes you think I'm fine with that?


Lunar: It's faster...


Yeah, you can be a dick about asking for anything now, can't you?


There's nothing -intrinsically- demeaning about being a mount for someone else. Your assumption that Solars' default is to force Lunars into a submissive role just shows prejudice on your part. As per the setting, Lunars out-power Solars on average (they have an actual organization backing them up!), and it's much more likely that you'll find a Lunar bullying a Solar than it going the other way.


At least for a few years. One way or another, if a "Lunar carrying Solar" scenario comes up, I find that it's -far- more likely that said Solar and Lunar will be friends/travelling companions than a master/slave relationship.


What, as a low-experience Solar, would you -trust- an Exalt that can tear you in half to be your "trusted steed" against his will? He's got willpower points, all your mind-washing Charms will fail just when it's worse for you.


And you can only hope the next bearer of that Solar Exaltation is smarter about choosing a mount.

 

[Smeggedoff]

I've already said I don't care but whatever.

The point was to illustrate that anyone can overreact to a request for help.


Lunar faster than Solar.


Lunar can carry Solar faster than Solar can move on his own.


If the Lunar and the Solar need to -get- somewhere, the Solar asking the Lunar to take him is just that, a request for help. The Lunar refusing to do so is no different from the Solar refusing to heal the Lunar on "I'm not your healbot!" grounds.

sure, healing someone is the same as carting them around on your back

I'm sure any lunar would love being described as one of the greatest mounts in creation, no really.

Right. Is it demeaning that they were described as, say, the best diggers of Creation?


The best hunters of Creation?


The best grazers of creation?


The best guardians of creation?


Why is riding a special case?

not riding, being ridden, there'as a big difference.

mainly it's because plenty of the lunars remember what it was like to be under the thumb of the solar deliberative in the first age (just ask Lilith) and probably don't want it to happen again.

Ok. That's that particular Lunar's problem.

and any other lunar had bad experiences during the first age, Lilith isn't unique.


but I cede this point, it's probably uncommon enough

So how about the vast majority of Lunars who never even saw the First Age?

the thing is, the ones who did survive from the first age probably had large amounts of sway in lunar society, due to being thousands of years old and all.


and living a long time isn't the only way to experience the first age, that's what the past lives merit is for

Lunar: Yo, healing bitch, got wounds here.
Solar: I see. You should probably rest then.


Lunar: No, you don't get it, you're going to lick them better now.


Solar: WTF? What makes you think I'm fine with that?


Lunar: It's faster...


Yeah, you can be a dick about asking for anything now, can't you?

yeah you can, but it's easier to be a dick when the request involves leaping on someones back and yelling "yah, giddyup"

There's nothing -intrinsically- demeaning about being a mount for someone else. Your assumption that Solars' default is to force Lunars into a submissive role just shows prejudice on your part.

no, that's showing your Naivete, to ride something (that is to say use it as a mount) is to dominate it into doing what you want, if the daminance is in reverse it's no longer called riding

As per the setting, Lunars out-power Solars on average (they have an actual organization backing them up!), and it's much more likely that you'll find a Lunar bullying a Solar than it going the other way.

well of course, that makes it all alright (this is sarcasm if you can't tell)

At least for a few years. One way or another, if a "Lunar carrying Solar" scenario comes up, I find that it's -far- more likely that said Solar and Lunar will be friends/travelling companions than a master/slave relationship.

I agree with this, if a lunar and solar have been travelling with each other for a few year it becomes much less of a big deal, especially if they're bonded it's likeley to become more of a partnership, not a sure thing though.

What, as a low-experience Solar, would you -trust- an Exalt that can tear you in half to be your "trusted steed" against his will? He's got willpower points, all your mind-washing Charms will fail just when it's worse for you.


And you can only hope the next bearer of that Solar Exaltation is smarter about choosing a mount.

very good point, you'd have to be crazy to do it, but it probably happens, and do yo think that lunar exaltation, or anyone they tell about this up-his-own-arse Solar, will be any more willing to give solars a chance?


(phew, god I hate trying to get nested tags right)

 

[Brickwall]

Somebody seems to have an overly set picture of what a mount/steed does. Please read Lord of the Rings, and tell me that Gandalf and Aragorn don't treat horses with the amount of respect due to any human. Then I can slap you in the face and call you a liar. Which I don't really want to do, but you will have provoked me. Why would you lie like that? Jerk.


The only requirement to being a mount is carrying someone to where they need to go. Solars who treat their Lunars with respect can still do so while riding them.

 

[Smeggedoff]

Somebody seems to have an overly set picture of what a mount/steed does. Please read Lord of the Rings, and tell me that Gandalf and Aragorn don't treat horses with the amount of respect due to any human. Then I can slap you in the face and call you a liar. Which I don't really want to do, but you will have provoked me. Why would you lie like that? Jerk.

Tread carefully when calling someone a Liar, especially when a lie is a deliberate twisting of the truth, said liar may simply have misunderstood the subject matter.


as you seem to be an expert on horse and horseriding and not just shooting your mouth off about a book of fiction written by a fantasy Author I'll bow to your superior knowledge

The only requirement to being a mount is carrying someone to where they need to go. Solars who treat their Lunars with respect can still do so while riding them.

yes, operative passage highlighted


and congratulations, you've hit upon one of my pet peeves, you do not call me a liar, you do not know me or my motivations


you do not call me a liar, I don't care if i'm standing in front of you ficking you in the balls and telling you I'm giving you money


don't do it


you've disgusted me, I no longer care if I'm wrong or right on this subject matter, I'm washing my hands of the hole topic


Fuck you


goodnight

 

[Beowulf89]

Would it be better if the Solar had maxed Athletics and was carrying the Lunar? Or if the Solar was a Sorcerer and he had to summon demons for his circle's transport? Maybe the Solar is carting the Lunar around on his ship. Or the Lunar is social heavy and is using the Solar as muscle? I don't know, it seems like you are only looking from your perspective.


Also, you do know how disgustingly powerful a Solar with Ride and a Lunar with a huge spirit shape are right? Lunar, as the mount, gets free access to any reflexive or supplemental charms the Solar is using. Solar ride is more about making the steed awesome than shoving it around with UMI.


Oh, also the control rating is a show of how much the steed resists the rider. Any struggle of will happens only when a control check needs to be made. A willing intelligent mount has a control rating of 0. Its not like the Lunar is going to buck off and then gore his ally, unless they limit break.


Having said all that I tend to play Lunars as normally unwilling to be mounts. If only because the Solars tend not to have any actual Ride "Ow, owww! That doesn't go there!" "But, I saw a picture once and it looked like it would be fun..." "This isn't a picture and you're doing it wrong!"


See, cause it ended in a double entendre`.


Sex.

 

[cyl]

See, cause it ended in a double entendre`.

Huh, is that an american deformation of a french expression ? :shock:

 

[Beowulf89]

... I had to look up what deformation meant.


I think you are responding to the fact that its not really a double entendre, or that I can't seem to make accent marks. If its the first, then I apologise. I couldn't think of a better phrase. If its the second, then I apologise for nothing. In America we have no need for accent marks, its you weirdoes in Not-USA that have accents. With your fancy-schmancy foreign words, understanding of words and proper grammatical syntax.


We ain't go no need for none of that stuff, no siree!

 

[Brickwall]

... I had to look up what deformation meant.
I think you are responding to the fact that its not really a double entendre, or that I can't seem to make accent marks. If its the first, then I apologise. I couldn't think of a better phrase. If its the second, then I apologise for nothing. In America we have no need for accent marks, its you weirdoes in Not-USA that have accents. With your fancy-schmancy foreign words, understanding of words and proper grammatical syntax.


We ain't go no need for none of that stuff, no siree!

Actually, he was refering to the fact that you used "double" as well as "entendre", under the conception that "double" is only an English word. However, it is, in fact, a French word as well, meaning that the phrase is untarnished in the written form.

 

[Sherwood]

I believe one aspect of the Lunar mount idea that has been missed is airborne combat and movement.


"We need to get to Nexus to stop the Evil Deathlord from destroying all Creation, but I have no movement Charms and my horse was eaten by that last monster!"


"No problem, dude. I'll shift into my Roc form, and we can fly several hundred miles an hour with my movement Charms."


Or, a Solar archer raining death upon his enemies while the Lunar keeps at altitude, using spells and Charms to cover both of them. It is not an issue of subserviance, but one of teamwork. It could also be used in ocean combat; picture a Solar riding into a fight on a killer whale, or a giant squid.