Second Strength Excellency

[Unforgiven]

Another thing I'm wondering:


Does the Second Strength Excellency seem rather weak and obsolete compared to the First and Third Strength Excellency?


I mean, the Second can generally not even be used effectively in combat, since buying automatic successes doesn't really work, since you're not really "making a strength roll" during the damage step of combat right ? That would mean you could use it to increase your strength as a static value by rolling, but that would make the Third Excellency a lot more effictive, since it does the same thing for 4 motes, doesn't require a roll, and simply doubles the strength value itself for that action, which actually does work in combat.


So I only see a real use for the Second Strength Excellency during feats of strength..

 

[cyl]

Well... clinches rolls.  8)

 

[tjcoonrod]

as far as DV values and combat, the 1st or 3rd tend to be better.


My opinion as to 2nd excellencies are that they are useful in situations you don't want to fail or rely on random chance of dice, and not have to spend too many motes, such as an athletics roll to avoid falling in the pit of nastiness, or lore/occult rolls so I know what the hell is going on, and why I should turn tail and run after meeting that 'Mask of Winters' guy over there. Etc etc.


As far as how I purchase excellencies for my characters, i tend to buy 1st or 3rd for combat related abilities, and 2nd for non combat type abilities.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

There's no reason that using the Second Excellency wouldn't be viable on damage, damage is a strength based roll, just it suffers an internal penalty of the soak of the target. Sure, it doesn't include an Ability...but that's not important for Lunars. The trade off is deciding if you want more dice, or more dice, or guaranteed damage, on the whole, I'd generally favor the latter, particularly considering you need to use Impressions of Strength to have a 50% chance. The write up on the Lunar Excellencies even mentions specifically using their Strength Excellency for damage. Considering that Automatic Success don't drop when dice pools do, the 2nd Excellency is also more useful when facing an opponent who drops your damage to minimum Essence or Overwhelming ping and has more soak than your damage. This is particularly useful when wielding weapons with low base damage against foes with significant soak.

 

[Unforgiven]

Well I think that was just my point. I don't think you can add automatic successes to damage on an attack, since I can only use the Second Excellency to add automatic successes to a strength roll.


When I do damage in combat, I don't make a strength roll, I just add my strength to calculate the base damage. so adding automatic successes doesn't work, since it's not a roll I'm making...

 

[magnificentmomo]

Well you roll [(extra successes)+(strength+weapon damage)] There is strength being rolled in there.

 

[Unforgiven]

hmm, I don't see a damage roll as a strength based roll myself for this purpose, but I can imagine you'd interpret it that way.


Aside from that, I don't think it would matter a lot if it did, would make the Second excellency a bit more useful for strength..

 

[Chaka]

hmm, I don't see a damage roll as a strength based roll myself for this purpose, but I can imagine you'd interpret it that way.
Aside from that, I don't think it would matter a lot if it did, would make the Second excellency a bit more useful for strength..

I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the wording of the charm that it's allowed.

 

[Persell]

hmm, I don't see a damage roll as a strength based roll myself for this purpose, but I can imagine you'd interpret it that way.
Aside from that, I don't think it would matter a lot if it did, would make the Second excellency a bit more useful for strength..

Mr. Universe is going to hit harder than me since he can probably pull a small plane and my arms get tired if I have to hold my 35 pound child for more than a few minutes.  Adrenaline only accounts for so much.


If Strength is applied to any roll, such as damage, it counts as a Strength roll.

 

[Dracogryff]

When I do damage in combat, I don't make a strength roll, I just add my strength to calculate the base damage. so adding automatic successes doesn't work, since it's not a roll I'm making...

And yet, on page 141 of Lunars, it explicitly states you can do this. Check the sidebar titled 'Charm Concept: Attribute Excellencies' in the third point section. (Attribute Excellencies can increase values that Ability Excellencies cannot.) It specifies you can increase base damage, and I quote, of course.

Increasing Strength with the appropriate Excellency doesn't help a character hit the opponent (except in clinching), but having a greater Strength for just one instant also increases the attack's base damage.

So actually, yes, it does indeed work on your damage rolls. The main question at this point is whether it's considered a static value, in which each two motes you spend adds two to the attribute for that instant, or a rolled value, in which you're buying a success for two motes. *shrugs* It could potentially be interpreted either way.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Considering that you do in fact roll dice, I would consider it a dice roll and not a static value. Arguing that it is such seems no different than saying that one's total accuracy is a Static Value of Dex+(Combat Ability)+ Weapon Accuracy. Either is modified by weapon traits and the situation.

 

[Persell]

The second excellency is always inferior to the 1st or third excellency in combat because it has neither exploding tens nor does it double your stat. You really only want to use the second excellency for anything with a fixed difficulty number, like for example "roll 5 successes on an athletics roll to jump that chasm". As exalted relies heavily on contested rolls and the likes this generally makes the second excellency a poor choice for many skills/attributes.

 

[Unforgiven]

The second excellency is always inferior to the 1st or third excellency in combat because it has neither exploding tens nor does it double your stat. You really only want to use the second excellency for anything with a fixed difficulty number, like for example "roll 5 successes on an athletics roll to jump that chasm". As exalted relies heavily on contested rolls and the likes this generally makes the second excellency a poor choice for many skills/attributes.

I'd have to disagree on this, considering the autmatic successes you are buying are added in 2nd edition, and don't replace dice rolled, I think statistically adding automatic successes is more efficient.. but I think it balances out and is based on preferences I guess..

 

[Persell]

You can disagree all the way you want, that just doesn't change the facts.


In combat etc. you want exploding rolls, because it doesn't matter if you miss from time to time when that one really good roll obliterates your enemy in a way you are actually not supposed to be able to. That is what 10s do. The second excellency denies you more dice, therefore the ability to roll more 10s.

 

[magnificentmomo]

10's don't matter where strength is involved because they only count once for damage.

 

[Coyotekin]

I say duke it out in the arena and test out your theories there.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

10's don't matter where strength is involved because they only count once for damage.

Indeed. Which means that automatic successes, at least going by percentages, have a higher overall odds than dice when dealing with damage. 7-10 means 40% success rate per die, while 1 success per 2 dice in cap means a 50% success rate per die. If you're someone who has reliable luck, the 1st Excellency can still be better, but the odds aren't as good.


For attacking, the 1st Excellency can be somewhat better, in that it has the same 50% odds as the 2nd, since the 10% count double, and is a better choice against someone who has very good defenses, as almost getting through reliably with the 2nd Excellency isn't as good as sometimes getting through. Still, for an ST, the 2nd Excellency can be quite useful, allowing the ST to roll less overall dice.


For characters other than Lunar, the Excellencies can be a better choice for different reasons. Dragonblooded love the 1st Excellency, to keep mote costs down. Sidereals love the 2nd, since their success cap is EQUAL to their max dice added instead of half as with others, though they do have a special caveat with the 1st that it can remove any amount of penalty before counting against their low dice cap. Of course, finding another source of dice adder and pulling out the 4th Excellency can be truly sick.

 

[Persell]

I thought we were speaking about grappling...


Anyway, then apart from the damage roll the first excellency is superior for the lunars ^^