Ride and Sail: Need ideas on making them valuble

[Kyeudo]

Ride and Sail are two abilities that are a little lackluster. Sure, you can learn some Charms to make your mount/ship able to do some cool things, but when you compare benefits to benefits, any given Ride or Sail Charm isn't going to do much more than get you from point A to point B at the speed of plot while a new Presence Charm can let you command anyone to do anything, a new Melee Charm can make you even more devastating in combat, and a new Athletics Charm can let you run up walls or even fly.


I think the central problem with these Charms is that they don't really affect you. Instead, they affect you mount or ship. Most of them deal primarily with eliminating the drawbacks that a mount or ship bring, like keeping them alive when a single Exalt with a Grand Daiklave wants to turn them into splinters and hamburger.


How, then, would you go about making the Ride and Sail Charm trees more Exalt centered? What would make a Ride Charm look as apealing as Hungry Tiger Technique? I'm stumped personally. The best I can think of is some ridy-by attack Charms that only work while mounted. Anyone got any better ideas?

 

[Thanqol]

Once you figure out you can apply them to skyships and jetbikes, they suddenly get a lot more use.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Yup, cool vehicles and mounts make a world of difference. Riding a horse to point B is boring. Riding a Claw Strider, or better yet a Tyrant Lizard, is awesome. Let's see, offhand:


A cross-martial arts/ride charm that lets your mount use your excellencies on it's own attacks and dodges. A higher essence permanent expansion charm lets it use your other martial charms. Because nothing says ouch like a Tyrant Lizard using first martial arts excellency comboed with sledgehammer fist punch.

 

[Virjigorm]

The Ink Monkeys put out some stuff for ride and sail. Some of it is silly, but a few of the charms do a lot to make the abilities more useful.


check it out here: http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/07/05/ink-monkeys-vol-20-charm-medley.aspx

 

[Kyeudo]

Yup, cool vehicles and mounts make a world of difference. Riding a horse to point B is boring. Riding a Claw Strider, or better yet a Tyrant Lizard, is awesome. Let's see, offhand:

That goes without saying, but that doesn't really change the problem of Ride Charms. Why should I spend five Charms to make my mount fly when I could spend four Charms and make myself fly?


Then there's the fact that a character with Dexterity 4+ are as fast as a horse as far as the rules seem to say. Kinda kills the primary benefit of being mounted.

A cross-martial arts/ride charm that lets your mount use your excellencies on it's own attacks and dodges. A higher essence permanent expansion charm lets it use your other martial charms. Because nothing says ouch like a Tyrant Lizard using first martial arts excellency comboed with sledgehammer fist punch.

Already exists, actually. Worthy Mount Technique and Single Spirit Method together would allow you to do so. The problem? Why not just do it yourself? Your dice pool is going to be better than your mount's pool in almost every single case.

The Ink Monkeys put out some stuff for ride and sail. Some of it is silly, but a few of the charms do a lot to make the abilities more useful.
check it out here: http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/2010/07/05/ink-monkeys-vol-20-charm-medley.aspx

Already read them. Immortal Rider's Advantages and Immortal Captain's Advantages are admissions that Ride and Sail Charms will never be worth spending Essence on. Horse Skid Trick is so stupid, its actively harmful to the setting. Seriously? Turning a horse into a skateboard is retarded.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Already exists, actually. Worthy Mount Technique and Single Spirit Method together would allow you to do so. The problem? Why not just do it yourself? Your dice pool is going to be better than your mount's pool in almost every single case.

Because done right, you and your mount can both attack at the same time. Flurrying is already a killing technique, getting to flurry twice as often is more killing. And there's tons of training charms that can shore up a mount's attacks and skills.

 

[Kyeudo]

Because done right' date=' you and your mount can both attack at the same time. Flurrying is already a killing technique, getting to flurry twice as often is more killing. And there's tons of training charms that can shore up a mount's attacks and skills.[/quote']
So, you sink even more Charms into making an otherwise pathetic mount into a competent combatant instead of into actually doing something yourself? Do you see where I'm going with this? Sure, you CAN make an uber-mount, but why not just make an uber-you instead? If you are ever without your uber-mount, say you had to go through the catacombs and your Tyrant Lizard just won't fit, all of a sudden you are deprived of a significant amount of your power, where if you had instead put the effort into improving yourself you always have that power on hand.


Further, we've now moved beyond the Ride Charms themselves and at least into War or Survival Charms. If you need War and/or Survial to make Ride worthwhile, then Ride obviously needs help.


Further, look at Sail. You can't make your ship any better. Sure, you can have a First Age Artifact vessal with their high durability, Essence weapons, and incredible movement rates, but that's power all contained within the Artifact cost of the vessal, not in your Sail Charms. Your Sail Charms can keep the vessal from sinking, negate enviromental penalties for operating on the high seas, and get you from point A to point B faster, or in other words, your Sail Charms keep owning a vessal from sucking. They don't make YOU better at things.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

So, you sink even more Charms into making an otherwise pathetic mount into a competent combatant instead of into actually doing something yourself? Do you see where I'm going with this? Sure, you CAN make an uber-mount, but why not just make an uber-you instead? If you are ever without your uber-mount, say you had to go through the catacombs and your Tyrant Lizard just won't fit, all of a sudden you are deprived of a significant amount of your power, where if you had instead put the effort into improving yourself you always have that power on hand.

It's three, maybe four charms to grant a mount access to a big chunk of your powers, as has been pointed out to me already. The opportunity cost isn't that great, given that invincible sword princess is still close to just as invincible, it's just that now she's riding invincible hoof princess.
Heck, look at the essence 5 Mounted Invincible Companionship. Besides granting your traits to your mount in every way (Except that you get your mount's traits if higher, meaning your strength is now as high as a Yeddim's, while your Yeddim has the dexterity of an Exalted human), you get +1 essence and you can use your ride ability for every physical activity as long as you stay mounted, so you can happily send off your arrows at your full dice pool with maxed excellency despite not having an archery excellency and never having even seen a bow in operation before in your life, and for that matter use your ride skill to construct a building without craft and ride your way through a wrestling match with a tyrant lizard despite knowing no martial arts at all and having arms that rival overcooked spaghetti for muscle tone. Granted it's essence 5 but by that point you've still only invested about five or six charms in ride, exactly what other five or six charm investment will pay off that big? The cost/reward curve simply isn't as drastic as your post implies.

Further, we've now moved beyond the Ride Charms themselves and at least into War or Survival Charms. If you need War and/or Survial to make Ride worthwhile, then Ride obviously needs help.

Um, what? Why would fighting with your horse/siaka/tyrant lizard/yeddim/whatever need war or survival? I don't think anybody's listed charms from those trees yet. Now Lore, I could see that because then you give your mount Power Awarding Prana and it starts leaning it's own charms, and at that point you have some amazingly broken combos. Such as a flying Yeddim who spams distracting finger gesture while the circle of Exalts riding it rains down death on the paralyzed enemies. But nobody's asked for war or survival.
And for the sake of argument. . . I believe the avowed most powerful combat build in Exalted is Archery plus Athletics. Do you allege that archery clearly needs help because making an almighty build also requires athletics?

Further, look at Sail. You can't make your ship any better. Sure, you can have a First Age Artifact vessal with their high durability, Essence weapons, and incredible movement rates, but that's power all contained within the Artifact cost of the vessal, not in your Sail Charms. Your Sail Charms can keep the vessal from sinking, negate enviromental penalties for operating on the high seas, and get you from point A to point B faster, or in other words, your Sail Charms keep owning a vessal from sucking. They don't make YOU better at things.

Well first, I'd say making it so that your ship cannot sink or even take damage no matter what is a pretty danged good improvement to your ship, and being able to sail a ship without it sinking, no matter what, makes YOU one heck of a better sailor than the guy in the lifeboat you're going to be picking up.
Second, sail makes you, well, better at sailing, to be recursive. I think that you're missing that owning a boat, or better yet an airship, is significantly better than not owning one. Just trying to travel any distance can be a pain and you'll be exposed to all manner of environmental hazards, depending on your Storyteller's preferences. The airship gives you options for escape or pursuit not available to the poor chump on foot (Although the guy who took Ride might well set out on his flying Yeddim, possibly with an arrow painted on his forehead) Depending on your charm loadout, you may not be able to store all your goodies elsewhere so having a ship to fill full of treasure is a major advantage over the pitiful wretch who has to carry it all on his back (The ride guy with the yeddim's got a major advantage there too, and he didn't have to blow all his attribute points on strength). And then if you've got that artifact ship, you're mounting weapons far more powerful than the guy who skipped on that gets, unless he's willing to expend a nearly equal artifact rating just for the weapon. Owning a ship has both advantages and disadvantages, with sail charms you get to negate all the disadvantages and keep the perks.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Heck' date=' look at the essence 5 Mounted Invincible Companionship.[/quote']No such Charm anymore, thank god. It's been replaced by Draft Horse Measures.

Um, what? Why would fighting with your horse/siaka/tyrant lizard/yeddim/whatever need war or survival? I don't think anybody's listed charms from those trees yet.

Someone mentioned improving your mount's traits via Bestial Traits Technique.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Already read them. Immortal Rider's Advantages and Immortal Captain's Advantages are admissions that Ride and Sail Charms will never be worth spending Essence on

Actually it has to do with what motes end up actually representing in Exalted combat and why Ride and Sail charms shouldn't be punished as result.

. Horse Skid Trick is so stupid, its actively harmful to the setting. Seriously? Turning a horse into a skateboard is retarded.

Not liking certain aspects of over the top anime or other genre considerations in Exalted's creation=good concept for an individual game. Not so much for line development as a whole.

 

[Kyeudo]

Heck, look at the essence 5 Mounted Invincible Companionship. Besides granting your traits to your mount in every way (Except that you get your mount's traits if higher, meaning your strength is now as high as a Yeddim's, while your Yeddim has the dexterity of an Exalted human), you get +1 essence and you can use your ride ability for every physical activity as long as you stay mounted, so you can happily send off your arrows at your full dice pool with maxed excellency despite not having an archery excellency and never having even seen a bow in operation before in your life, and for that matter use your ride skill to construct a building without craft and ride your way through a wrestling match with a tyrant lizard despite knowing no martial arts at all and having arms that rival overcooked spaghetti for muscle tone. Granted it's essence 5 but by that point you've still only invested about five or six charms in ride, exactly what other five or six charm investment will pay off that big? The cost/reward curve simply isn't as drastic as your post implies.

This sounds like stuff from Dreams of the First Age. Never even seen those books, so I can't really comment on anything from them. Sounds like something of the right power level for an Essence 5 Charm, but with problems in execution, much like everything I've heard about from Dreams of the First Age.


Idea: A Charm that increases the benefits of being mounted in combat. Currently, it's +1 DV and -1 to your opponents DVs. Maybe have it make the benefits equal to your Essence for an action?

And for the sake of argument. . . I believe the avowed most powerful combat build in Exalted is Archery plus Athletics. Do you allege that archery clearly needs help because making an almighty build also requires athletics?

Actually, Archery + Athletics is considered the top combat build because Archery is the combat Ability with the most inherent advantages (superior range!) and Athletics negates the effects of other builds using Athletics to negate Archery's inherent advantage. If you prohibited Athletics Charms to everyone, the Archery build would still come out the winner.

Well first, I'd say making it so that your ship cannot sink or even take damage no matter what is a pretty danged good improvement to your ship, and being able to sail a ship without it sinking, no matter what, makes YOU one heck of a better sailor than the guy in the lifeboat you're going to be picking up.

I suppse you are correct. Being able to turn a hurricane's furry into a non-issue is fairly potent when you think about it that way. Still, it seems strange to me that Sail Charms don't have much in the way of changing what the character is capable of.


Perhaps what irks me most is that most of what Sail Charms do is just faster versions of what a mortal could do. A mortal can know where all the dangers are nearby if he has experience with the local waters. A mortal can sail a ship through a storm without losing the ship with a variable degree of difficulty. A mortal can manage to keep his balance on a rolling deck. If we talk about Athletics Charms though, those let me jump over buildings, balance on a human hair, run faster than a cheetah, and even fly, things a mortal couldn't do with a million years of training.


I'd like to see more stuff like the gems from the Abyssal or Sidereal Sail trees. Abyssals can create banks of wind-killing fog and sail into the Underworld without need of a shadowland. Sidereals can tell supernatural dangers to just bugger off. No mortal can ever do those.

Actually it has to do with what motes end up actually representing in Exalted combat and why Ride and Sail charms shouldn't be punished as result.

While motes are practically hp in Exalt-on-Exalt combat, if Medicine or Lore Charms aren't getting freebie pools, I don't see why Sail or Ride should. "It usually goes on during downtime!" is an argument that can equally be applied to Sail, Ride, Bureaucray, Socialize, Linguistics, and more.

Not liking certain aspects of over the top anime or other genre considerations in Exalted's creation=good concept for an individual game. Not so much for line development as a whole.

It's not over-the-top or epic, it's cartoonish. Try explaining it to anyone with a straight face. I can explain the heroin-pissing dinosaurs without them seeming silly. I can explain Heaven using candy in place of cash and make it sound awesome. I can't explain popping an ollie on my mustang and not sound like an idiot. What's next? a peel-slide in Lunar Charm form? Perhaps named Mischevious Monkey Feint?

 

[MrMephistopheles]

While motes are practically hp in Exalt-on-Exalt combat, if Medicine or Lore Charms aren't getting freebie pools, I don't see why Sail or Ride should. "It usually goes on during downtime!" is an argument that can equally be applied to Sail, Ride, Bureaucray, Socialize, Linguistics, and more.

No one has said to the otherwise. It's simply that so far, they've only made pools for those Abilities. Which makes no overt statements as to what might be done with other Abilities. Though my guess is that it will depend in part of what noncombat abilities are more likely going to be activated in combat. The reason however is NOT because "They're never worth spending essence on." It's actually because you're making the unfair choice of choosing to either live or activate a charm you should be able to use in ride and sailing combat situations. Which is rather different than "Ride and Sail charms are never worth the essence to spend on them."

It's not over-the-top or epic, it's cartoonish. Try explaining it to anyone with a straight face. I can explain the heroin-pissing dinosaurs without them seeming silly. I can explain Heaven using candy in place of cash and make it sound awesome. I can't explain popping an ollie on my mustang and not sound like an idiot.

Ok.Yay value judgement.and I might end up with someone who goes, "Cool!". Apparently it doesn't work for you.

 

[Kyeudo]

No one has said to the otherwise. It's simply that so far, they've only made pools for those Abilities. Which makes no overt statements as to what might be done with other Abilities. Though my guess is that it will depend in part of what noncombat abilities are more likely going to be activated in combat. The reason however is NOT because "They're never worth spending essence on." It's actually because you're making the unfair choice of choosing to either live or activate a charm you should be able to use in ride and sailing combat situations. Which is rather different than "Ride and Sail charms are never worth the essence to spend on them."

Every Charm use in Exalted is a risk that you'll need those motes later for a defensive Charm, including the defensive Charms. Part of being a good player is knowing when that risk is either minimal or when the payoff exceeds the potential disaster. If a Charm isn't seeing use by experienced players because they'll want those motes later, it costs too much. Giving them a pool of Essence to spend just on that type of Charm is one way to increase their use, but that's like a band-aid on the real problem.


The Essence cost of a Charm is supposed to be a measure of how much of the character's potential resources the Charm is worth. Perfect defenses do dominate in-combat Essence expenditures, but they also dominate over Charms from Melee, Archery, Martial Arts, Dodge, and other directly combat-related Abilities. In a way, you could define the mote cost of a Charm as "The number of perfect defense activations I have to give up to use this Charm." Giving out free motes for an Ability is like saying "Activating Charms from this Ability cost you 0 perfect defense activations." In a way, effectively free.


If you have to give people the Charms' effects at no relative cost to the character to encourage people to use them, you have Charms that are not normally worth their own mote cost. That means that you really need to do one of two things: reduced the cost or increase the effect.


Am I making any sense?

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Every Charm use in Exalted is a risk that you'll need those motes later for a defensive Charm, including the defensive Charms.

This ends up amounting to "never spend essence on anything but perfect defense charms." And I assume you include defensive charms as in non perfect defenses. The nature of perfect turtling is well known and while it contributes to the issue with wanting to give a separate pool charm for Sail and Ride, it's not the only issue on those two Abilities. This is also part of why Overdrive was made. Both work to serve a general idea of preventing turtling by alleviating the forced choice that offensive charms makes you choose in a lot of combat.

Giving them a pool of Essence to spend just on that type of Charm is one way to increase their use, but that's like a band-aid on the real problem.

To ultimately solve the issue the entire system would need to be scraped for a new one and that was never the intent of the Ink Monkeys.


My guess is Ride and Sail got it so far because there are Ride and Sail charms pertinent to combat involving using a mount or sailing a ship or other conveyance so while not directly combat abilities the applicable charms exist in the same too risky to use space as offensive combat charms did without something like Overdrive. Given that , sure you can do so for a number of other abilities. But we'd have to ask them where their intentions lie on that. If any.

 

[Thanqol]

Also, I can think of a lot of problems that can be solved by moving at over 150MPH. Not everything's about combat. In my games, less than 18% of things tend to be about combat.

 

[Kyeudo]

This ends up amounting to "never spend essence on anything but perfect defense charms." And I assume you include defensive charms as in non perfect defenses. The nature of perfect turtling is well known and while it contributes to the issue with wanting to give a separate pool charm for Sail and Ride, it's not the only issue on those two Abilities. This is also part of why Overdrive was made. Both work to serve a general idea of preventing turtling by alleviating the forced choice that offensive charms makes you choose in a lot of combat.

In economics, there's a concept called oppourtunity cost. The oppourtunity cost of an action is the value of the next best thing you could have done instead. In this case, I am using a perfect defense as the oppourtunity cost of spending motes on any other charm, as having a perfect defense when you need it is probably always going to be the next best thing to whatever it was you did.


This does not mean "Never spend Essence on anything but perfect defenses." That is a valid way to play the game, but not a very interesting one. My statement is that you have to weigh the oppourtunity cost ("How many perfect defense activations does this cost me?") against the reward you get for activating the Charm. Activating Keen Sight Technique when spying on the satrap's home in the middle of the night is probably a good idea, as it gets you more information and you aren't likely to get in any combat unless you are caught. Activating Keen Sight Technique in the middle of a running away from a Wyld Hunt would require a very hefty justification, as you might need those motes for a perfect defense in mere moments.

Also, I can think of a lot of problems that can be solved by moving at over 150MPH. Not everything's about combat. In my games, less than 18% of things tend to be about combat.

I never said that you can't solve problems except by combat, only that you have to evaluate whether or not you'll want to activate a perfect defense before you can recover your motes when you spend your motes.


Also, it may not make up the majority of play, but its the fraction of play where your character could end up dead if you do something stupid.

 

[Thanqol]

I never said that you can't solve problems except by combat, only that you have to evaluate whether or not you'll want to activate a perfect defense before you can recover your motes when you spend your motes.


Also, it may not make up the majority of play, but its the fraction of play where your character could end up dead if you do something stupid.

This is a problem with the fundamental structure of Exalted, not with Ride and Sail charms. In particular, paranoia Exalted.


My group doesn't bother to make optimized characters and I eyeball most threats, meaning you can take Ox Body and not get smeared by a Grand Totem Pole.


EDIT: Being 150 miles away from your enemy also obliviates the need for a lot of PDs.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

In economics, there's a concept called oppourtunity cost. The oppourtunity cost of an action is the value of the next best thing you could have done instead. In this case, I am using a perfect defense as the oppourtunity cost of spending motes on any other charm, as having a perfect defense when you need it is probably always going to be the next best thing to whatever it was you did.
This does not mean "Never spend Essence on anything but perfect defenses." That is a valid way to play the game, but not a very interesting one. My statement is that you have to weigh the oppourtunity cost ("How many perfect defense activations does this cost me?") against the reward you get for activating the Charm. Activating Keen Sight Technique when spying on the satrap's home in the middle of the night is probably a good idea, as it gets you more information and you aren't likely to get in any combat unless you are caught. Activating Keen Sight Technique in the middle of a running away from a Wyld Hunt would require a very hefty justification, as you might need those motes for a perfect defense in mere moments.

Well let's consider these opportunity costs you mention. Let's assume a Solar heavily invested in Ride Charms, riding a Simhata, vs. a typical wyld hunt with 5 assorted DBs.
Our Solar has two options, run or fight. If he runs, his Simhata can move 400 yards a long tick. The fastest Essence 5 or less Exalt can run 500 before charms and armor penalties come into play. If they do use charms, there goes some motes that could have been defenses, the Simhata rider's ahead. If they don't, the only DB who can really hit 500 yards is the one in no or very light armor, meaning they either have pitiful soak, making them vulnerable, or they have to invest motes into defensive charms, which reduces their mote pools. Again, the Simhata rider is ahead on motes, having to spend a grand total of nothing.


So, on foot, perfects against five attackers at once. On a Simhata, perfects against maybe two at the most and for far fewer ticks than if you have to run away on foot. The number of times you have to use Seven Shadows Evasion is far less, so the opportunity cost is actually negative, it more than pays for itself over any length of time.


If the DBs do catch up somehow, perhaps blazing through motes or using vehicles, the Simhata can simply take to the skies. Unless the entire circle is made up of archery specialists, unlikely, this means that only one or two of the DBs can attack at all anymore and the earth-style brute with the grand goremaul is left picking his nose. This means the Solar only has to expend maybe a third as many perfect defenses to avoid attacks, a clear opportunity multiplier for him. And even then, they're only keeping up until he starts flying over nearby walls, rivers, or cornfields to slow them down. As for attacks against the Simhata, the Solar can share his perfects with it and it's got a big pile of health levels. And every attack on the Simhata is an attack not aimed at the Solar, giving him more benefits.


Now consider fighting. If our Solar is an archery or thrown fighter, he can take to the air once again. This cuts down the DB's ability to fight back to a fraction, making his victory a near-certainty. If he's a Melee fighter, he instead charges in and his Simhata charges with him. Assume the Solar has a Daiklaive, he can deliver 3 blows every 5 ticks for Damage +6L. The Simhata can deliver 2 bites and a kick every 5 ticks, with damage 10L. Unless the Solar's fairly high strength, the Simhata is significantly more damaging, though with a smaller pool to attack with. Overall this means twice as many attacks the DBs have to defend against, but they don't get any bonus attacks for themselves, so the Solar only has to defend against the exact same number of attacks as if he were standing on his own two feet. Oh wait, as a mounted character, the Solar gets an automatic +1 to his DVs against melee. The DBs will miss more often, giving him even more of an advantage.

 

[Kyeudo]

You're making a case for the Simhata (a Familiar 3 investment at least) being useful and not for Ride Charms being useful, except for Sometimes Horses Fly Aproach. Your example assumes that the Wyld Hunt does not bring its own mounts, as there are several means by which DBs can protect their mounts from anima flux.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

You're making a case for the Simhata (a Familiar 3 investment at least) being useful and not for Ride Charms being useful, except for Sometimes Horses Fly Aproach. Your example assumes that the Wyld Hunt does not bring its own mounts, as there are several means by which DBs can protect their mounts from anima flux.

I sense moving goalposts. As of your first post, you said this:

Ride and Sail are two abilities that are a little lackluster. Sure, you can learn some Charms to make your mount/ship able to do some cool things,

You acknowledged that ride charms let your mount do cool things but argued that the mount was pitiful without the charms. Now that I've shown that the mount can be awesome, you're changing position to the charms not being useful and it being all mount. That's not kosher.


As for the argument that the DBs can have mounts, yes, they can. But in that case the mounted Solar is still better off than the solar on foot, for the same reason as above, otherwise the DBs can use the tactics above to annihilate the guy on foot. And the mounted DBs have had to spend motes and artifacts on protecting their horses from anima, motes and artifacts not being spent killing the Solar. Ultimately, there's precious few situations where having a mount can be argued as worse than not having a mount. Once could manage to contrive such a scenario with a feat of effort but that scenario would hardly be the entire campaign.


And, for some concepts, mounts are simply cool. If nothing else, they offer significant amounts of stunt fodder not available to guys on foot.

 

[Thanqol]

Having a jetbike made out of daiklaves justifies sinking any amount of experience in it.


Plus there's a lot of scope for custom charms, particularly because Ride and Sail haven't gotten as much splatbook love as combat charms. My Eclipse has a skyship and a custom Sail Charm called Expeditious Extraction, which allows him to teleport allies on the ground onto his skyship without landing.


And, in all honesty, I've used more sail charms and gotten more mileage out of that skyship than I have out of most combat trees. Extreme party mobility is worth so much in a narrative sense it justifies the cost.


Oh, and there's the added edge of being able to sit in my skyship during combat and shoot it's lasers at people - thus allowing me to use my damage-resisting sail charms in regular combat.


EDIT: There's two things that help any party of Exalts so much: A mobility guy and a money guy. I would vastly prefer to have one of those guys to another combat monkey.

 

[Kyeudo]

Alright, you guys have convinced me. Existing Ride and Sail Charms aren't made of fail.


Still, how does a Solar take Sail from suceeding flawlessly at the mundane to doing the impossible?

 

[Malekith]

I'm still not! =)

Alright, you guys have convinced me. Existing Ride and Sail Charms aren't made of fail.
Still, how does a Solar take Sail from suceeding flawlessly at the mundane to doing the impossible?

 

[Thanqol]

Alright, you guys have convinced me. Existing Ride and Sail Charms aren't made of fail.
Still, how does a Solar take Sail from suceeding flawlessly at the mundane to doing the impossible?

Custom charms. From a corebook only position, Ride and Sail aren't that hugely different to, say, melee. Melee gets Perfect Defenses, lots of do-better-at-mortal-stuff, and in the big flashy range we've got making swords out of Essence or shooting sunlasers - which is roughly the same spread as seen in Ride. Difference is Melee has more than 2x Ride charms, and an astronomically higher amount given the various splatbooks and ink monkies. Ride, Sail, Bureaucracy Awareness, Stealth and Larceny are categories where you step into Custom Charm territory really fast.


This is a good thing, as these are all narrative effects, and you can customize their effects to get the ones you need in your game rather than getting through the speedbumps. Aforementioned Eclipse has a custom Bureaucracy charm that allows him to insert himself into any legal position of authority he wants. This is very useful.


You're limited by the GM and your own creativity in this circumstance, but you've got a lot of scope. Here are some more Hilariously Improbable Sail ideas:


- Sail over land


- "Ramming Speed" - briefly accelerate and reinforce ship structure. Expansion charm to make your ship explode on contact.


- One Man Crew


- Glorious Autopilot Method - "Zero Man Crew"; turn the ship's control over to it's awakened small god.


- Storm Summoning Method - while a Solar captain can endure it, the enemy fleet can't.


- OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA - submarine capabilities


- I'm On A Boat, Motherfucker - T Payne is totally a Solar


EDIT:


Say Leviathan is your Lunar Bond. Do you use Ride or Sail to drive him around?

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Alright, you guys have convinced me. Existing Ride and Sail Charms aren't made of fail.
Still, how does a Solar take Sail from suceeding flawlessly at the mundane to doing the impossible?

First make sure your GM is on board with your epic sailing plans. You can't do the impossible if there aren't impossible-to-overcome menaces in front of your ship, only a Solar with custom charms could make an awesome stunt out of "We sailed three days to port. It was kinda cloudy the second day and rained a few minutes the third day."
So you'll be wanting some whirlpools to use to speed you on your way (Just look at the tail end of Pirates of the Caribbean), attacks by merfolk and morasses of murderous ship-eating seaweed to play against. Then you'll have an environment worthy of stunting, when you can show your impossibly accurate steering by sailing so close to jagged rocks that your sea captain Solar casually opens a bottle of rum by holding it over the railing and letting a nasty protrusion rip out the cork, and there's your stunt.

Say Leviathan is your Lunar Bond. Do you use Ride or Sail to drive him around?

I'd say Ride myself. He can probably fly without Sometimes Horses Fly Approach too.