Reworking the "Dawn Solution"

[Kyeudo]

I assume everyone's read the latest batch of Solar Charms the Ink Monkeys rolled out. Reading over it, they have managed to make some seriously good points about the problems with multiple Ability fighting styles, but then their implementation is less than impressive.


The key points seem to boil down to these:


Weapon Management - Since you can have only one or two weapons in hand at a time (barring shapeshifting, mutation, or artifacts), you generally have to waste multiple miscellaneous actions swapping between your Melee weapon, your Archery weapon, and your Thrown weapon (and possibly your Martial Arts weapon as well). Further, maintaing an artifact weapon for each style exacts high costs in Essence commitments.


Style Synergy - Currently, there is no reason why someone heavily invested in one combat Ability would want to learn Charms from another combat Ability outside of flavor. Each Charm that does not go towards his best combat Ability only increases his power in niche situations. Further, a mainstay of Solar combat power, Infinite <Ability> Mastery, only applies to one type of Ability per purchase and has a high commitement cost, making it very inefficient to keep multiples up at the same time.


Kiting - If two Solars of the same Caste, played with equal skill and equally good at stunting, get into a fight, the one that favors a ranged style will generally win. Archery + Athletics can keep Melee + Athletics far enough away to make the Melee guy largely impotent.


However, these problems don't plague just Dawn Caste Solars. Many Solars probably would pursue a multi-ability style if it was made beneficial in some way, comparable to specializing in only one style. Further, Exalts of other types, like the Chosen of Mars, have much the same problems with the system. It would seem that a more generalized solution is needed, one not just focusing upon Dawn Caste Solars.


I've got a few ideas on how to adapt some of the Ink Monkey material into a more general patch to the system, but I'd like to hear if anyone else has some ideas.

 

[Brickwall]

Um.


You realize that the entire POINT of the Dawn fix was to give DAWN CASTE a benefit to being the DAWN CASTE, right? The more that you distribute the benefit amongst other Exalts, the more you take away from the actual fix. Dawns have always been forced to have all the combat Abilities taking up their valuable XP-discounts. Unlike the other Exalts, who rarely have more than two weighing them down, Dawns frequently have absolutely no use for all but one of their Caste Abilities. One combat Ability is generally enough for any character, so the Dawns don't have any particular advantage, which puts the "useful Favored/Caste Ability" count at around 6 or 7 for Dawns versus 8 or 9 for other Exalts. All things considered, it's a pretty big disparity.


Similarly war-oriented Exalts don't suffer this problem. There is little overlap in the Full Moon set, to the point where having all 3 Physical Attributes favored makes you, well, a great warrior among Lunars. Chosen of Battles do have Archery, Melee, and War, but there's absolutely no Charm overlap between those, nor between any of them and Martial Arts (which all Siddies need). Perhaps they need some fixing, but they don't need the DAWN fix. They need their own specialized fix.


All that aside, the Kiting thing really DOES need a generalized fix. Unfortunately, unless we give EVERYBODY special "anti-kiting" magic, the only way to do it is...the dreaded "nerf". The best solution I can think of is to give ranged weapons some kind of increased penalty to "shoot while moving", but Charms can get around that so easily that I can't imagine why one would bother.

 

[Kyeudo]

Any fix that makes it viable or, better yet, valuble to pursue a two Ability combat style wil necessarily solve the Dawn Caste's problem. A Dawn Caste as of right now only needs War and one other of his Caste Abilities, while other Castes usually use at least 3. If, say, taking Archery and Martial Arts or Melee and Thrown produced solid combat styles, then the Dawn Caste would then have reason to use at least 3 of his Caste Abilities. However, such a fix need not cut out the other four Castes from pursuing such a style.


Futher, even the Lunars have the problems mentioned with Weapon Management. A Full Moon who wants to use both Archery and Melee needs a bow and a sword and as an Exalt will want those to be artifact weapons.


I think the first step in fixing some of the problems should be to allow everyone to draw or stow a weapon reflexively at least once a round. This would allow you to grab your thowing knives/bow/whatever without needing to flurry in a miscelaneous action and thus ruin your dice pool.


The second thing I think to do would be to add a "Resonance" keyword to artifact weapons and armor. Artifacts with such a keyword would reduce their attunement costs by 1 mote for every previous Resonance artifact you are currently attuned to, to a minimum of 1 mote. So your daiklave would cost 5 motes to attune, the power bow would only cost you 4, the serpent-sting staff would only be 3, and so on.


These ideas are from the Ink Monkeys stuff, but they insisted on making them Charms, meaning you'd need to invest in about 4 or 5 Charms before even starting to see a synergy between combat Abilities.

 

[cyl]

I've read through the two posts... but don't remember anything saying it was a Dawn-only fix.

 

[uteck]

I have not bothered to keep track of the Ink Monkey posts, but for the Dawn fixes did they mention anything about fixing the Anima banner? After all it is the only one that can be resisted at low essence levels, and can also be almost duplicated by some creatures and charms.

 

[Kyeudo]

I've read through the two posts... but don't remember anything saying it was a Dawn-only fix.

The Ink Monkey's material is not Dawn only, it's Solar only. Sidereals, Lunars, and Dragon-Blooded all still have to deal with the problems mentioned in my opening post.

 

[Brickwall]

Dawn Castes (and evil counterparts) are the only Exalts who have any reason to have more than one fighting Ability. That's on purpose.


Also, The Dawn Solution Patch Notes have come out. Give them a read. They don't really solve any of the problems you talked about, but you should read them anyway.

 

[Kyeudo]

Dawn Castes (and evil counterparts) are the only Exalts who have any reason to have more than one fighting Ability. That's on purpose.
Also, The Dawn Solution Patch Notes have come out. Give them a read. They don't really solve any of the problems you talked about, but you should read them anyway.

Well, read through the patch. It had one nice Charm (the Dodge Charm), alot of flashy but probably useless Charms, and some errata stuff that made me go "What the???" Pretty much what I expect out of the Ink Monkeys.


As for other Exalts having no reason to use two combat Abilities, what about the classic knife fighter? He'll cut you up in close combat and follow up with a thrown knife if you try and run. A ranger type, skilled at swordplay and able to put an arrow through a hobgoblin's eye at a hundred paces. The Prince of Persia, deadly with blades but more than capable of giving you a swift kick in the head as he sails over you in a somersalt. There are a wide variety of concepts, not confined to the Dawn Caste or even to Solar Exalts exclusively, that would support learning two or more Abilities for combat to a high degree. Why deny them an even footing in the rules?


I think the Ink Monkeys had a good idea with Charms that can be used for more than one combat Ability, but why stop there, really? Why not dual-Ability Charms, where you need a certain degree of mastery in two or more Abilities to even learn the Charm? How about follow-up Charms, where an attack with one Ability sets up an oppourtunity to do something potent with another Ability?

 

[MrMephistopheles]

So far in what we've got both Weapon Management and synergy between combat abilities(which was a HUGE part of the while crux of the Dawn solution as it relates to well....DAWNS) have been addressed. The Kiting issue I find sort of funny here since there have been some discussions on the WW board about whether Archery kiting for Solars was nerfed TOO much. As for...

As for other Exalts having no reason to use two combat Abilities, what about the classic knife fighter? He'll cut you up in close combat and follow up with a thrown knife if you try and run. A ranger type, skilled at swordplay and able to put an arrow through a hobgoblin's eye at a hundred paces. The Prince of Persia, deadly with blades but more than capable of giving you a swift kick in the head as he sails over you in a somersalt. There are a wide variety of concepts, not confined to the Dawn Caste or even to Solar Exalts exclusively, that would support learning two or more Abilities for combat to a high degree. Why deny them an even footing in the rules?

You mean like the general way that inter combat ability synergy was weaved into the Dawn solution and that charm purchases in one combat ability can through the new Keyword boost another combat ability? Dawns are primed to be in the best position to take advantage of this. But nothing stops the dedicated non Dawn solar from investing the time and xp to do the same.

How about follow-up Charms, where an attack with one Ability sets up an oppourtunity to do something potent with another Ability?

Not too long before we got the initial part of the solution, Holden if memory serves. Posted a Red v. Blue youtube clip showing that sort of thing that talked about how you'd be able to do that sort of thing post solution. Ie...EXACTLY what you just described above.

 

[Kyeudo]

You mean like the general way that inter combat ability synergy was weaved into the Dawn solution and that charm purchases in one combat ability can through the new Keyword boost another combat ability? Dawns are primed to be in the best position to take advantage of this. But nothing stops the dedicated non Dawn solar from investing the time and xp to do the same.

Really now? What would allow a Dragon-Blooded ranger to effectively use both Melee and Archery? How about a Sidereal?

Not too long before we got the initial part of the solution, Holden if memory serves. Posted a Red v. Blue youtube clip showing that sort of thing that talked about how you'd be able to do that sort of thing post solution. Ie...EXACTLY what you just described above.

I haven't see any "follow up" Charms in any of the Ink Monkeys material. You have no incentive to do anything more than roll your best attack pool over and over again.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Really now? What would allow a Dragon-Blooded ranger to effectively use both Melee and Archery?

Who ever said they needed to be. Nor was the Dawn solution supposed to facilitate the sort of inter combat synergy that Dawns/Dusks possess. No DB Aspect has the sort of Aspect spread that created the same issues that the Dawn spread created for them and inspired the Ink Monkey changes. You're asking something that the Solution never intended to do.

How about a Sidereal?

It was actually mentioned by Holden and hatewheel that examinations of the Battles Ability spread and trees lead to some insight in how to construct some aspects of the Dawn solution. And since beyond tiny hints like the Horoscope Keyword, you are asking a question that cannot be answered yet.

I haven't see any "follow up" Charms in any of the Ink Monkeys material. You have no incentive to do anything more than roll your best attack pool over and over again.

Who said anything about that being part of the follow up stuff? Did you even read the very first Dawn solution stuff?


It's not related to Ability synergy but other exalts will benefit from some of the things that have come out of the solution work, including Overdrive.

 

[Kyeudo]

Who ever said they needed to be. Nor was the Dawn solution supposed to facilitate the sort of inter combat synergy that Dawns/Dusks possess. No DB Aspect has the sort of Aspect spread that created the same issues that the Dawn spread created for them and inspired the Ink Monkey changes. You're asking something that the Solution never intended to do.

I thought that was clear from the opening post. I keep asking myself "Why does having a flexible combat style have to be the domain of Solars, Solar-Derivatives, Lunars, and Alchemicals? Why do the Sidereals and the Dragon-Blooded get left in the cold?"

Who said anything about that being part of the follow up stuff? Did you even read the very first Dawn solution stuff?

I read the first Dawn Solution stuff. A few good ideas followed by alot of flashy Charms that don't really do anything special or new, sprinkled liberally with Charms that are overcomplicated, pointless, or could be accomplished with an existing Charm plus a good two-die stunt. A typical Ink Monkeys release.


When I said "follow-up" Charms, I was talking about Charms that encourage using a different Ability sometimes, like a Melee attack that throws the target into the air and makes the next ranged attack undogeable. Charms like that would make having two combat Abilities maxed out valuble.

It's not related to Ability synergy but other exalts will benefit from some of the things that have come out of the solution work, including Overdrive.

Heaven help us all.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Who ever said they needed to be. Nor was the Dawn solution supposed to facilitate the sort of inter combat synergy that Dawns/Dusks possess. No DB Aspect has the sort of Aspect spread that created the same issues that the Dawn spread created for them and inspired the Ink Monkey changes. You're asking something that the Solution never intended to do.

I thought that was clear from the opening post. I keep asking myself "Why does having a flexible combat style have to be the domain of Solars, Solar-Derivatives, Lunars, and Alchemicals? Why do the Sidereals and the Dragon-Blooded get left in the cold?"

Who said anything about that being part of the follow up stuff? Did you even read the very first Dawn solution stuff?

I read the first Dawn Solution stuff. A few good ideas followed by alot of flashy Charms that don't really do anything special or new, sprinkled liberally with Charms that are overcomplicated, pointless, or could be accomplished with an existing Charm plus a good two-die stunt. A typical Ink Monkeys release.


When I said "follow-up" Charms, I was talking about Charms that encourage using a different Ability sometimes, like a Melee attack that throws the target into the air and makes the next ranged attack undogeable. Charms like that would make having two combat Abilities maxed out valuble.

It's not related to Ability synergy but other exalts will benefit from some of the things that have come out of the solution work, including Overdrive.

Heaven help us all.

So basically. You DIDN'T read it. Gotcha.

 

[uteck]

I found the new anima power and it is better then the old, but still the weakest of them all, unless they plan on limiting the others. Dawnis anima power is still not linked to Essense like it is with all others, so I will still use my house rules.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Hey I might be in on this a little late but I stopped following everything Exalted for a few months and just came back to the Scroll of Errata last week, only to find a SHITLOAD of charms and fixes...


You DO realize that there were tons of new charms designed to cheapen attunements or change weapon rapidly, right?


Yes, they're SOLAR ONLY, but nothing says you can't make custom charms for other exalted following common sense and the ground rules set by the existing material.

 

[chalicier]

After lengthy discussions with my Dawn Caste as I felt the Dawn Solution anima was WAAAAAY overpowered, we eventually settled on a +2DV against all enemies with Essence equal to or less than the Solar, and -2 internal penalty to all morale checks made by any complementary unit caused by the Dawn's actions. The Essence comparison adds a little bit of scaling, albeit not much, so I changed Mob Dispersing Rebuke to inflict a Df(Essence) Rout Check on units with Magnitude lower than the Solar's Essence (ones equal or larger still only take a DF1 Rout Check as before). I've made this a "Dawn Solution" change, however.


(It's an internal penalty because it's quite possible for circumstances to make the morale penalty an autofail even for massive, high-Morale units if they suffer a -2 external penalty, which given a Tier 1 War Charm can trigger a Rout check at any time seemed a bit much. Making it internal means they have a chance of succeeding, albeit a small one.)


As for the rest of the Dawn Solution, I've firewalled the new Keywords, Charms etc behind a big plot barrier. Once the players break the big plot barrier, they will "unlock the true power of Solar combat." It seemed the best way to introduce such a sudden improvement in practically all the players' capabilities (one of my Twilights is a minor Solar Hero stylist and archer, for example, who is going to discover that they can use Thunderclap Rush Attack with Archery, allowing them to do Speed 3, DV -0 powerbow flurries).

 

[Lord Kamina]

As for the rest of the Dawn Solution, I've firewalled the new Keywords, Charms etc behind a big plot barrier. Once the players break the big plot barrier, they will "unlock the true power of Solar combat." It seemed the best way to introduce such a sudden improvement in practically all the players' capabilities (one of my Twilights is a minor Solar Hero stylist and archer, for example, who is going to discover that they can use Thunderclap Rush Attack with Archery, allowing them to do Speed 3, DV -0 powerbow flurries).

Not a bad...