Rethinking the core mechanic

[cyl]

I would change the spirit exc to this: 2m / adds +0k1, max virtue / essence for universal charms.

Why?
/quote]


Because it's probably more powerful than +1k0. If spirits are limited to their Ess + 1, and can't upgrade their chances of successes, then a spirit ess 3 (city god) cannot complete more than diff 4 actions with his normal pool, unless he uses virtue channel, wp or a charm... and basically that sucks.


But it maybe that I am too caught up with 2e, and have a hard time letting go of high physical and mental DVs.

 

[wordman]

Because it's probably more powerful than +1k0. If spirits are limited to their Ess + 1, and can't upgrade their chances of successes, then a spirit ess 3 (city god) cannot complete more than diff 4 actions with his normal pool, unless he uses virtue channel, wp or a charm...

Which seems exactly in theme to me. Low Essence spirits in Exalted are supposed to be somewhat impotent, unless they are strongly motivated. So, I kind of view that as the system doing what it is supposed to, rather than "basically sucking".


You are probably correct, however, that stronger spirits should probably have some more potent charms. For example a "+0k1" charm at Essence 6 or so might not be bad.

 

[cyl]

Well the majority of gods (if not spirits) does not pass essence 3.


So to me essence 3 is where the fun begins for spirits and where the epic dimension starts for them. If they can't reach the legendary difficulty then IMHO, the mod's not doing its job.


I just realize I haven't asked about the effects of spending 1 willpower point... does it as usual 1 suxx independently from the maximum dice kept ? (in which case consider my previous arguments invalid :mrgreen: )

 

[wordman]

I just realize I haven't asked about the effects of spending 1 willpower point... does it as usual 1 suxx independently from the maximum dice kept ?

Yes.


One other thing about this system is that there is a very clear incentive to channel virtues. Since I consider channeling to be a fairly underused, but interesting, mechanic, providing more compelling reasons to use it seems like a win.


Also, the notion that Essence 3 creatures can't hit "legendary success" is totally wrong. Such creatures keep four dice. This means their maximum result is eight successes (i.e. when those four kept dice are all tens).


See the sky blue line in this graph, for example. That line is a spirit using full excellencies. Note that its mean result is five successes. Note also the green line, which is that same spirit using no excellencies. It's mean result is around 4.5 successes:

I updated my blog post with some examples to make this more clear.

 

[cyl]

What is a mean result ?


<- french dude

 

[Persell]

The average result

 

[cyl]

So... 9 dice, 4 max dice kept... average result 4.5 suxx I have no problem with this.


Problem is... ess 3 spirits usually have larger pools than 9 (usually closer to 10-12) in their area of specialties, which usually corresponds to their main purpose and responsabiilties, they have greater ratings in both attributes and abilities than their exalts equivalents.


So in the canon the average potential of an essence spirit is naturally higher than 4.5 in its areas of expertise.


Now, that is your decision, not mine.


I am just saying that lowering the natural potential for spirits (who IMHO need to be important antagonists in the game) is a dangerous choice.

 

[wordman]

What is a mean result ?

When people talk about the "average" result, they usually refer to the arithmetic mean. Occasionally "average" is intended to refer to the median. In most role-playing contexts, the median and the mean turn out to be the same.

ess 3 spirits usually have larger pools than 9 (usually closer to 10-12) in their area of specialties, which usually corresponds to their main purpose and responsibilities, they have greater ratings in both attributes and abilities than their exalts equivalents.

Compare the green lines in these three graphs, which represent an Essence 3 character at various levels of ability. First one is Attribute + Ability + Specialty of 6, next is Att+Abl+Sp of 9, next is Att+Abl+Sp of 13:

Note two differences as skill increases:


1) The mean goes up.


2) Like likelihood of hitting the mean exactly goes up. Meaning, for example, that a spirit with 13 dice will get the average result (5 sux) nearly a third of the time, while that same spirit with 6 dice only gets the average (3 sux) less than a quarter of the time. In other words, more dice makes the result more reliable.


On that last graph, compare the green and sky blue lines. The only difference between them is that the sky blue line is using more dice (bought with excellencies). Note that this practically guarantees at least four successes and gains the maximum number of sux around 10% of the time. Compare to the green line, which gets less than four sux about 10% of the time and has only about a 3% chance of getting a maximum result.


(All of this suggests I need to rewrite by blog post.)

 

[cyl]

What your mod is doing is effectively limitating the natural potential of the spirit (and anyone with ess 2+ and a pool of 10+ dice) to automatically fail achieving their natural average potential.


I am not talking about the 10-% chances to get a better result, but about the chances of getting the average result their large pool entitles them to reach.


Limitating the number of dice kept with such a formula, though it apparently seemed to me the most appropriate at first doesn't exactly fulfill my expectations, because exalted is not only about getting a defined and confined number of suxx, but more about getting as many as you can.


Larger pool means greater probabilities of becoming the top of the food chain in your chosen area.


That you can't do with such a mod because it hinders your potential.


You started with "exalts achieve too much too easily and the difficulty chart is not pertinent" and you end up dampening the natural potential of everyone to achieve greatness, not by modifying the difficulty charts, but hindering drastically their raw natural potential.


I think essence users and heroes should have at least the natural potential of accomplishing legendary feats through their own capabilities.


The way the canon works, legendary is too common, we agree, but I do not believe that this system (resulting in the impossibility for an exalt essence 2 with a natural pool of 10+ to ever reach more than difficulty of 3 without the aid of magic) is the right answer.


But... there is an easy fix.


Instead of setting the maximum number of dice is ess +1 dice, simply change it to 5 or Essence if Essence>5.


Thoughts ?

 

[wordman]

What your mod is doing is effectively limitating the natural potential of the spirit (and anyone with ess 2+ and a pool of 10+ dice) to automatically fail achieving their natural average potential.

Where "natural" here means "the ridiculous number of successes that standard Exalted mechanics can generate". So... yes, that's exactly what I am doing.

this system (resulting in the impossibility for an exalt essence 2 with a natural pool of 10+ to ever reach more than difficulty of 3 without the aid of magic)

Again, incorrect. An exalt with Essence 2 keeps three dice, yielding a maximum result of six successes without magic (or virtue channeling).

 

[cyl]

Again, incorrect. An exalt with Essence 2 keeps three dice, yielding a maximum result of six successes without magic (or virtue channeling).

It's true, but we're not talking about astronomical events either.


I see your point here, but I think it would be simpler to limitate the dicepool a bit encouraging the players to take it easy... in 1e there's no DV so having an natural accuracy of 15+ is totally ridiculous, and letting them reach the legendary threshold as part of their inner potential, provided their pool is higher or equal to 5.


My suggestion would be:


- if dicepool < 5, roll & keep dicepool.


- if dicepool > 5 and Essence < or = 5, roll dicepool, keep 5.


- if dicepool > 5 and Essence > 5, roll dicepool, keep Essence.


Limited effects, no more than 10 natural suxx (and getting 5 10s doesn't happen everyday), but ensures that the character can reach the Legendary deed, if he's lucky enough to get 5 suxx out of his pool.


My problem in 1e was never to stop my players reaching the legendary difficulty, they're exalts, they're suppose to kick ass, but to dampen the astronomical number of suxx they could gather on attacks and contested rolls.


Side question: damage rules unchanged ? no R&K ?!

 

[Joe_Mello]

cyl, why are you so obsessed with 10?


I'll give you a real-world example. Say my Essence 4 Chosen of Secrets is facing an exact doppleganger. I channel my 3 dots of Valor into a 2-die stunt, attacking twice with Starmetal smashfists. I'll also dump the 3 motes for the excellency.


The first attack:


+8 Dex+MA


+2 Weapon Acc.


+2 stunt


-2 flurry penalty


+1 excellency


11 dice, keep 4+3+1=8


At a 70% success rate, I should get about 8 successes on average. My doppleganger with 5 Dodge, has a natural Dodge DV of 6. Include hearthstone bracers and a combo (2nd Dodge, Absence, and Demure Carp Feint), it goes up to 14 + 3 dice. Even with the new excellency, it'd be 10 + 4 dice with 70% success; an effective 13.


I do not think this is a good 2e system. For all the interesting calculations, the system is only concerned with math in a vacuum, never taking into account the target of any dice roll.

 

[cyl]

I'm not obsessed with 10s, I'm saying considering the Ess +1 for the keeping dice because "people can get 10s" is a mistake IMHO.


With the system wordman wrote your example (forgetting about the virtue channelling part) would be:


Roll: 8 base pool +2 acc +2 stunt -2 flurry = 10


Keep: 4+1 = 5


Your 3m would do the following:


- increase the Keep to 6


- consider 8 & 9 as counting as 2 suxx.


If you channel your Valor of 3 (limit 3 times per story) you can keep 8/9 instead of 5/6.


Now do the same with an essence 2 solar with the same stats.


Roll: 10


Keep: 3


The only chance this solar guy gets to "naturally" reach the legendary threshold is to get at least 10s and 1 sux on his dicepool... which is... rather thin I guess (but I suck at math fu so I wouldn't know).


And as wordman reminded me earlier, we are only talking about 1e here :mrgreen:

 

[Joe_Mello]

1) You're assuming that a character would willingly start as Essence 2, which I think would be career suicide.


2) Maybe we're all thinking about this incorrectly, and should worry about this as a modified binomial distribution.


A binomial distribution analyzes "hit/miss" trials. For a standard roll, we could assume that there is a 40% chance of a hit, with a 25% chance of said hit being an extra hit.


So with a 10/5, I will average 4 dice hits per roll, 1 of those 4 will be a bonus hit (i.e. a 10). So, the Expected Value of the roll is 5 successes, and since I only rolled 4 dice of 7+, I'll keep all of them to score 5 successes. Throw in the excellency (which adds to roll) it's 4.4 hits and 3.3 extra hits, totaling 7-9 successes.


For an Essence 2 Solar, it's 10/3. One average, 4 of those dice will still be hits, and 1 of those 4 will be a 10. If I keep three, I'll choose the 10 and two others. That's 4 successes on 3 dice. If the Solar charm works as 2nd [Ability] excellency, then you're looking at an average of 9 successes on 3 dice.


If you had spent your Bonus Points on that 3rd dot of Essence, it's 10/4, which adds an extra success on average to your keep--that's 5 on 4, 10 with charm.


In summation, any Exalt roll with a Expected Value higher than [Essence+1] should expect more successes than dice kept.

 

[cyl]

1) You're assuming that a character would willingly start as Essence 2, which I think would be career suicide.

Heh...
Because clearly spending 7BP, the equivalent of 21 xp, instead of just waiting to get some 16xp and some training time, gaining 7 BP to buy oh I dunno maybe this artefact 5, or 7 BP worth of allies / contacts / ressources, and saving some 5 xp in the process, is clearly not career suicide... :roll:

 

[wordman]

Limited effects, no more than 10 natural suxx (and getting 5 10s doesn't happen everyday), but ensures that the character can reach the Legendary deed, if he's lucky enough to get 5 suxx out of his pool.

I think I see why you want this, but it is exactly why I don't: you want normal people (that is, making rolls unaugmented by magic) to be able to get Legendary successes without channelling virtues.
I don't.


Virtues are one of the most interesting things about Exalted, but they are implemented so badly that they are essentially optional to play. That sucks.


I want people to have a reason to channel, and have it really matter to the outcome.


Also, as for the guy being "lucky" to get five successes, this simply isn't true. Let's say he rolls a 10 die pool and keeps five, as your system would have it. He'll get at least five successes over 57% of the time. He'll get nine successes once out of 99 rolls.

 

[cyl]

So basically, we agree to disagree here, and it is not my place to judge your intentions but to help you reaching your goal.


So, if you want virtues to count for something, why not have the virtues do the following : + (virtue) roll AND keep ?


Is it mathematically too broken ?


I mean, virtues are usable (virtue times) per story... which depending on your conception of story is ... not much. I usually consider a story as a complete season (10+ episodes and god knows how many sessions).


So that's basically 9 dots of virtue, at best 9 "super dramatic character virtue focus" moments per story.


Virtues will probably remain less important and most likely less used than excellencies in that regard, and, as with the canon, will be used combinated with charms to ensure the best result possible...


No ?!

 

[cyl]

Here's my previous post rewritten:


IMHO, if you want virtues to be more important in the game, but you feel like keeping the canon temporary virtue points per story system is a good thing, then you need to make virtue count at least as much, if not more, than excellencies.


Since there are many types of exalts with as many excellencies, but one virtue system, I think the "heroic / virtuous behaviors" should be rewarded more than "spending xm to get a better result". So channelling virtue should be definitely more powerful than excellencies.


What you suggested will not, IMHO dictated by my guts and instincts and total lack of math skills, fulfill your expectations of making virtues really matter to the outcome as much as you want them to, since excellencies seem to have more stable results (except perhaps for spirits )


But I may be wrong.

 

[Gylthinel]

I've been playing some L5R lately, which gives me a bit of perspective on this system. And that perspective is this: whatever mechanic you use to determine kept dice becomes the most important. Duh, that's exactly what Wordman's been saying. But, in our L5R experience, we've become concerned that kept dice are too important. Fortunately, it has compensation for non-kept dice in various ways. Skill gives you various crunchy bonuses. Without this sort of compensation, the sytem will rapidly feel too lopsided for my tastes.

 

[cyl]

Well, in L5R there's also this 10 dice rolled limit thing.


With wordman's proposition it's not the case.


As exalts have a tendency to roll 10 to 15 dice on a regular basis - though now wordman has changed the excellencies it should not be 100% accurate anymore - the number of dice kept is somehow as much important than the number of dice you roll.


As he pointed out previously, the more dice you roll, the more chances to get a 10 you get, and 10s have a greater impact in the game (makes the dice kept count) than before with his mod.

 

[Gylthinel]

Well, in L5R there's also this 10 dice rolled limit thing.
With wordman's proposition it's not the case.


As exalts have a tendency to roll 10 to 15 dice on a regular basis - though now wordman has changed the excellencies it should not be 100% accurate anymore - the number of dice kept is somehow as much important than the number of dice you roll.


As he pointed out previously, the more dice you roll, the more chances to get a 10 you get, and 10s have a greater impact in the game (makes the dice kept count) than before with his mod.

I know. I was just offering some insight after playing w/ the actual r/k system.

 

[uteck]

I have not read all 5 pages of this post, but one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that people roll success all the time, but what about botches? If I get to pick and choose which dice I keep, then rolling a botch becomes nigh imposable, more so then it all ready is.

 

[cyl]

Heh that's a pretty good comment...

 

[wordman]

I have not read all 5 pages of this post, but one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that people roll success all the time, but what about botches?

The botching mechanism in Exalted comes into play so rarely, that I don't think ditching it entirely has much of an impact.


Having said that, the roll and keep system really doesn't change the chance of botches that significantly. In the canonical system, the chance of botching shrinks to near nonexistence one you have around seven dice or so, and its still pretty low even with a couple fewer dice than that.


For pools that small, most types of Exalted games won't hit the keep cap that significantly anyway, so the chance of botch is nearly the same as in canon.


For mortal games, it makes more of a difference. Generally, only mortals with very low traits will botch, and only if they don't stunt.

 

[Gylthinel]

I have not read all 5 pages of this post, but one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that people roll success all the time, but what about botches? If I get to pick and choose which dice I keep, then rolling a botch becomes nigh imposable, more so then it all ready is.

Good call. But I agree w/ Wordman: the Exalted botch system is rather pointless as-is, so ditching it is a non-issue, IMO.