Reasons to have Martial Arts and Meele

[psychoph]

I am trying to figure out why a character would have both of these.  The reason I am seeing is that if you take a Martial art that doesn't use weapons, so you woudl train in melee to gain a weapon ability.  Could people tell me other reasons that game wise make sense?


I can understand from a character idea sense (rp sense) that your character progressed that way, first through melee then to Martial Arts, but I am not seeing the game benefit of having both.

 

[Flagg]

I can understand from a character idea sense (rp sense) that your character progressed that way, first through melee then to Martial Arts, but I am not seeing the game benefit of having both.

Having Melee allows the character to pick up ANY Melee weapon at hand and use it effectively. MA is limited to a small set of MA weapons, plus whatever is the signature for the particular style.


Having MA allows you to fight bare-handed if you need to, which Melee does not.


Obviously, when it comes to Charms, you need MA and Melee to use MA and Melee Charms repectively.


-S

 

[psychoph]

And that is why TSJ removed Brawl because it is so much like Martial arts.

 

[Flagg]

And that is why TSJ removed Brawl because it is so much like Martial arts.

I beleive he also made ALL hand-to-hand weapons fall under Melee as well. It really does make a lot more sense.


-S

 

[psychoph]

so no more brawl enchancers or martial arts weapons that work in the marital arts style as unarmed?

 

[memesis]

I am trying to figure out why a character would have both of these.  The reason I am seeing is that if you take a Martial art that doesn't use weapons, so you woudl train in melee to gain a weapon ability.  Could people tell me other reasons that game wise make sense?
I can understand from a character idea sense (rp sense) that your character progressed that way, first through melee then to Martial Arts, but I am not seeing the game benefit of having both.

Charm differentiation.  As a Storyteller, I am not very inclined to allow Melee Charms that ignore armor entirely, or do aggravated damage, as PCs with these Charms and grand daiklaves will then gleefully mow through any and all opposition.  However, sometimes having such Charms are useful.


Beyond this, Melee can be useful to the Martial Arts-centered character because of the relatively cheap and effective defenses.  Dodge is good, and dodge is fun, but Fivefold Bulwark Stance with hooked swords is mighty effective in Power Combat.  Plus, it offers you a broader range of Charms than Dodge does, letting you arrange your favored abilities slightly more efficiently.

 

[psychoph]

silly me I totally didn't think that you could combined Martial Arts and Melee charms for combos when you have weapons that count as mele and unarmed.

 

[Persell]

silly me I totally didn't think that you could combined Martial Arts and Melee charms for combos when you have weapons that count as mele and unarmed.

still remember though no mixing abilities without them being reflexive


but yeah FFBS or SDS + FLB and snake style for attack using hook swords is nasty

 

[memesis]

silly me I totally didn't think that you could combined Martial Arts and Melee charms for combos when you have weapons that count as mele and unarmed.

You can't, provided the Charms in question aren't Reflexive.  Reflexive Charms can Combo freely with Charms outside their abilities.


Further, you can start persistent Charms across successive turns, such as Fivefold Bulwark Stance, that mix and match Abilities.  Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to use (for example) 5BS in conjunction with Flow Like Blood.

 

[cyl]

One of the greatest advantages of Martial Arts in exalted, is that most of the charms help the pc in most of the combat-oriented abilities !


You have a charm that allows you to parry attacks and make extra attacks (melee), strengthens your skin (resistance), makes you quicker and a better swimer/climber/jumper (athletics) or harder to hit (dodge)... Some of them even allows you to be more sneaky (stealth)...


But as the charms of that tree aren't of one specific abilities, the last charm of a tree given for an ability is surely more efficient than the one in the martial art charm-tree... still, with a martial art... you won't have to pay for all the charms to be generally equal in many areas.


Thus there is a great price to pay... no armor except of course for the celestial monkey.

 

[Andrew02]

Thus there is a great price to pay... no armor except of course for the celestial monkey.

Generally only the form charms explicitly mention they cannot be used with armour. Celestial Monkey is one of the few styles that is universally incompatible with armour (that is, until you purchase the pinnacle charm).


If you used armour, you could judiciously select styles which generally worked well with armours (the Immaculate Styles generally do so and have the advantage of being an aberration in terms of power amongst Celestial Styles), or you would simply have a handful of charms forbidden to you at most. And if you did not use armour, there are artifacts which provide soak without counting as armour for any purposes (but most importantly, charm compatibility).


It's not a terribly great price at all in normal combat, and it is a fucking JOKE to say it is a great price in power combat.

 

[Haku1]

Thus there is a great price to pay... no armor except of course for the celestial monkey.

Generally only the form charms explicitly mention they cannot be used with armour. Celestial Monkey is one of the few styles that is universally incompatible with armour (that is, until you purchase the pinnacle charm).


If you used armour, you could judiciously select styles which generally worked well with armours (the Immaculate Styles generally do so and have the advantage of being an aberration in terms of power amongst Celestial Styles), or you would simply have a handful of charms forbidden to you at most. And if you did not use armour, there are artifacts which provide soak without counting as armour for any purposes (but most importantly, charm compatibility).


It's not a terribly great price at all in normal combat, and it is a fucking JOKE to say it is a great price in power combat.

Of course, if you were a solar, you could... oh... pop off a few resistence charms to soak lethal with your bashing damage soak and then boost THAT up to silly heights.

 

[Andrew02]

You could. Solar Resistance has the same fucked up relationship with armour that MA does, for some batshit crazy reason. I imagine it was simply because they came around first.

 

[cyl]

yeah yeah... and here I was trying to be RP...


Damn of course there are many ways to overcompensate the relative nudity of a martial artist... but what about the spirit of it, before thinking about optimisation ^^


Perfection of soul body and mind, the anti materialism of it ya know, that kind of stuff  :lol:

 

[Andrew02]

yeah yeah... and here I was trying to be RP...
Damn of course there are many ways to overcompensate the relative nudity of a martial artist... but what about the spirit of it, before thinking about optimisation ^^


Perfection of soul body and mind, the anti materialism of it ya know, that kind of stuff  :lol:

Fuck you. Don't throw that shit in my face.


You're talking about how Martial Arts are the perfect ability for doing ANYTHING. You don't get to jump on a high horse and claim you were trying to think of flavour over rules.

 

[Joseph]

yeah yeah... and here I was trying to be RP...
Damn of course there are many ways to overcompensate the relative nudity of a martial artist... but what about the spirit of it, before thinking about optimisation ^^


Perfection of soul body and mind, the anti materialism of it ya know, that kind of stuff  :lol:

So you were tackling it from an in character perspective.  That is why you said things like:

One of the greatest advantages of Martial Arts in exalted, is that most of the charms help the pc in most of the combat-oriented abilities !

and

But as the charms of that tree aren't of one specific abilities, the last charm of a tree given for an ability is surely more efficient than the one in the martial art charm-tree... still, with a martial art... you won't have to pay for all the charms to be generally equal in many areas.

Neither of which really have ANYTHING to do with roleplay or the "spirit" of everything, and everything to do with powers that are tactically useful given how the Exalted system is set up and saving XP on Charms by consolidating them from multiple Abilities to a single Ability.


That kind of obvious lie might save face somewhere else, but we see through such utter rubbish pretty easily here.  All you are doing is embarassing yourself.

 

[cyl]

Dudes... you really need to unplug sometimes... it's just words... ya know Irony and stuff... no need to be rude that quick...


I was just following the topic through expressing my understanding of the advantage of Martial Arts over Melee from a technical point of view (for a pc and a GM)... though I prefer Martial Arts for it is more "style over efficiency" than Melee wich is just about parry/attack/weapon manipulation... I really liked ebon shadow and mantis for the spirit of it.


BUT...from a character and rp point of view... I have made a martial artist once... and I did not try to overcompensate his "nudity" with charms based on soak, I fully accepted it because it was in the nature of the martial artist to be unconfortable with his mooves while wearing armors and getting even with an armored adversary through his speed and technique...


I tried to think the best I could to get my way through a fight, technically that is using most of the charms I had with the Snake Style and stuff like dodging, spliting dice pools, making counter attacks and so on.


(when I first played my pc... the Power Combat was not instored... so life was harder)


And yes I did say Martial Arts was  "the perfect ability for doing ANYTHING"... but it is the virtue of martial artist to be very skillful in many domains... for it is supposed to be the only thing he does with his time... practicing again and again...trying to be the best at what he does and perfecting the attributes of the animal/totem that his style has derived from.


I think there is more style to practice martial arts and use their techniques than just pop a few charms to do greater damage... and I think though it is preferable to have a wider selection of charms on several combat oriented trees if you wanna be technically a better fighter... you could do just fine with only your martial arts charms.


But I did not made myself that clear... apologies gents...no need to raise the war axe... or maybe I'm just not gettinyet in the general tone of this community... either way... hope that point is clear... martial arts rulez, but melee's deadlier to me.

 

[Joseph]

it's just words...

no need to be rude that quick...

Our rudeness is just words also, why would you complain about it when you clearly have an attitude that words are no big deal?


You have a real penchant for making a fool of yourself.

 

[Andrew02]

...from a character and rp point of view...

A point of view that made no appearance in the post I responded to about your claims that MA must sacrifice armour.

or maybe I'm just not gettinyet in the general tone of this community...

I think that is the case, though I'm not really qualified to speak for others. I don't think the community has much patience for those who so blatantly lie.

 

[cyl]

I do think  words like "fuck you" or "you're embarassing yourself" or "you're lying" to be quite aggressive,  while I was not... that's all... but I'm french... so maybe it's not that bad in your homeland, but here... saying fuck you and stuff to someone is a clear attitude of disrespect, and while I did not show any to any of you, I wondered why you got so mad at me... but maybe I'm just wrong about that... but I kinda doubt it.


And still... I did not lie !!! I was just ironic about the "style over rules" when talking about RP... but I'm begining to think I got the wrong place to be to exchange ideas about a game we all love in a decent way...but I'm going to let go...I'm not here to settle any scores or to mess with someone... just to learn from others and have fun. Peace bro  


To get to the point... yes, the nudity of a martial artist, is a joke, with the Power Combat, you have resistance charms that clearly are made to erase the inconvenient of bieng unarmored... I think they are powerful, but maybe too much... a 3 motes reflexive charm (Iron skin Concentration) duplicates the effect (minimum damage=Essence of the attacker) of a character wearing the orichalch (dunno how it is spelled in english) war armor (artifact rating 5) with a high soak value like 15... and with the boost of the weapon attributes... I'd say, it is quite more powerful to have this charm than wearing an armor (although it is compatible with the use of armor ^^).


But the inconvenient is that if you wish to make an powerful attack boosted by charms, you must place it in a combo... and that is very very greedy in willpower and motes... so the lack of protection of martial artist is not fully compensated by charms, and it still can cause great harm to a pc, and most of the martial arts charms that boost the soak value are "simple" type. You make your kata, breathing in and out, focusing on what you've learned, and then you're ready to kick asses... but you can't do it in an already begun combat situation wtihout a combo, because the first blow could kill you right away.

 

[Haku1]

*looks* about left and right... makes sure that no one is watching...


Cyl...


admit, you've lost and soldier on... giving into defensive replies only makes 'em smell more blood. Worse, getting upset only makes 'em go for the kill...


Work with the points they gave you regards the issue.


Also, I would like to note that getting your persistent defense charms up, be they soak, dodges or parries, is the one of the first rules of surviving combat with other exalts.


Now, with melee, you've usually got the benefit of armour... if you go without, that's 2 turns you need to spend getting your soak up, like say if you use a MA style that doesn't allow armour, or has charms that doesn't allow armour. Also Solar resistence charms ARE good, compared to what the others get.


That's 2 turns with no attacks out of you... and if your opponent is another solar, he's most likely working up his persistent dodge and parries... this is usually a defensive pool of 10 and 10, not counting specialtiies.or weapon bonus or whatever.


And then he jumps down your throat with a flurry of attacks.

 

[Joseph]

I do think  words like "fuck you" or "you're embarassing yourself" or "you're lying" to be quite aggressive,  while I was not... that's all...

It's still just words, according to you.  Why get upset over something that is "just words?"

but I'm french... so maybe it's not that bad in your homeland,

It's pretty much the same here.

but here... saying fuck you and stuff to someone is a clear attitude of disrespect, and while I did not show any to any of you, I wondered why you got so mad at me... but maybe I'm just wrong about that... but I kinda doubt it.

1) I'm not mad at you, and I doubt anyone else is; being angry isn't the only reason to use language like this.


2) I don't have any respect for you.  That's not to say I hate you or anything, I just have yet to see any reason to believe you've earned any.

 

[cyl]

Yep, I think I'm just gonna let it go and admit I made a wrong move trying to be funny... ookaaay my mistake, it was unapropriated  ops:


To go on the subject of martial arts and melee... the main problem here is that while most of the defensive charms based on parry or dodge and resistance are reflexive with the Power Combat and allow you to attack, while these are simple in the Martials arts and are you're only action on a turn... and in my experience as a GM and pc 2 turns of soak boosting isn't a good choice for it is more likeable that you're armed opponent has the initiative on you with the benefits of the speed of his weapon (but you can have weapon too, so it can be balanced), and then strikes you the harder he can in order to disadvantage you further while relying on a defensive charm just in case...


Of course if you actually play a anime type of gaming, it is certain that both of the opponent are going to focus and prepare for the fight while staring at each other to evaluate the ennemy, letting their animas burn, and then go to the action when ready.


This is only possible with a duel, not with a fight employing several opponents ,extras or heroic characters or Dragon blooded, where clearly the martial artist unarmored is more likely to loose a insane number of motes to get throught the fight (IF he does not have "flow like blood"-uncertain of the traduction-that is reflexive), while the melee fighter can relatively rely on his armor (it depends on the type of the armor I give you that) and pop a few parry charms when needed.


And honestly, I can't hardly see a martial artist with a soak armor value superior to 6, even Swan on the Eclipse book has like 4 or maybe 5 L/B soak with a chain shirt I think...(okay the npc are not very well made) still then you can exploit a few artifacts that boost your soak, like the bracers, or some cape/belt/kimono, but this is more optimizing the pc to me than makin an interesting one.


So my opinion in this matter is following yours... martial arts charms aren't self sufficient for fighting though very funny and styled and the fact that some of them may help you in other domain than combat, so you have to get a few dodge or parry, and resistance charms to be on the same level in mass combat that a melee armored fighter... while melee charms are relatively self sufficient, that is.


But I think it is highly regretable that efficiency primes over style, especially in this game !... fortunately the Power Combat changed many things, it was far more worst before the coming of the Power Combat... life really sucked then  :lol:

 

[Joseph]

Yep, I think I'm just gonna let it go and admit I made a wrong move trying to be funny... ookaaay my mistake, it was unapropriated  ops:

I don't think anyone recognized you WERE trying to be funny to be honest.  I'll chalk it up to differences in culture and let it be.

 

[Andrew02]

I was vexed. Not angry, but vexed.

saying fuck you and stuff to someone is a clear attitude of disrespect, and while I did not show any to any of you

Let's look:

yeah yeah... and here I was trying to be RP...
Damn of course there are many ways to overcompensate the relative nudity of a martial artist... but what about the spirit of it, before thinking about optimisation ^^


Perfection of soul body and mind, the anti materialism of it ya know, that kind of stuff

That seems disrespectful to me. Before this, you've gone on about how Martial Arts is the prime ability for optimization . . . and then you tell me you're all about flavour over mechanical considerations. I don't see the humour, or the irony there. I see, "I don't care at all about what you have said, because I am ROLE-player. I don't need advice from a ROLL-player like you."