Questions regarding Solar Souls

[cordimus]

Hey folks,


Hope you all enjoy playing "Spot the Misconception" because I have a few questions regarding the breakdown of how the original solar souls were distributed.


First off, I'm assuming that there were originally 300 Solars created to fight in the Primordial War. I'm also assuming that when the Jade Prison was destroyed, 1/3rd of those souls escaped to reincarnate as normal Solars, and the remaining 2/3rds were evenly divided among the Deathlords and the Yozi.


This yields the following question:


1. Are there any estimates on how many Solars escaped the Usurpation and thus were never captured in the Jade Prison?


2. Did the Deathlords factor into this number? I know that the Mask of Winters was not among the Solars slain in the Usurpation, but I remember reading that some of souls were plucked from the Jade Prison.


3. I have also read that Deathlords are the souped up ghosts of dead Solars, so - did the creation of the deathlords consume the solar essence of their previous incarnations (and thus prevent that soul from ever being reincarnated) or are they ghosts instilled with the power of the Malfeans and the Solar essence has passed on to be reborn?


I don't particularly care about exact numbers on this, but the two things I'm mainly trying to figure out is: Do Solars outnumbers their abyssal and infernal counterparts just because a few managed to elude the Jade Prison and could an individual Solar, whose previous incarnation formed the identity of a Deathlord, be reincarnated with memories of their previous life (prior to becoming a deathlord of course). For instance, could the First and Forsaken Lion meet himself or at least what he would have become had he accepted a normal death instead of becoming a servant of the Labyrinth? I know that the Ghost of a First Age Solar is a pretty fearsome thing, and thus might be a powerful enough basis for a Deathlord, all of whom have had several millennium to mature into their current power and most of the books indicate that none of the greater powers had the ability to subvert a solar essence until a good amount of time after they were created.


Thanks much!

 

[MorkaisChosen]

First thing I'd say: you're going to get very confused if you're not careful with terminology.


There are two parts to a normal human soul: the hun, which, on death, either becomes a ghost, disappears to Oblivion, or gets cleaned in Lethe and reincarnates; and the po, which, on death, forms a hungry ghost. A Solar has a third part, known as the Exaltation, Solar Essence or Solar Shard. This third part, on death, goes off to find another person to Exalt, leaving the other two souls to do the normal thing.


To avoid confusion, I'd avoid calling an Exaltation a Solar Soul.


As I read it, there are 100 Abyssals, 50 Green Sun Princes and 150 clean Solars, so numbers are equal... except that I think there are a few Solar Akuma about.


The Deathlords are the ghosts of ancient Solars, and have nothing to do with their Exaltations; it's quite possible for the Lion to meet the guy with his Solar Essence.

 

[cordimus]

Thanks so much for the response. That clarifies a lot for me!

 

[cyl]

Yo !

1. Are there any estimates on how many Solars escaped the Usurpation and thus were never captured in the Jade Prison?

On the top of my head, 12 from the invisible fortress plus 2 solars from Rathess (one of them having reincarnated more than a 100 years ago and being known as Filial Wisdom, the Goblin King). There may be more but those are the 14th officials.

2. Did the Deathlords factor into this number? I know that the Mask of Winters was not among the Solars slain in the Usurpation, but I remember reading that some of souls were plucked from the Jade Prison.

That part is quite unclear. We do know however that both Mask of Winters and Walker in the Darkness were part of the 12 solars that died in the invisible fortress centuries after the Usurpation.

3. I have also read that Deathlords are the souped up ghosts of dead Solars, so - did the creation of the deathlords consume the solar essence of their previous incarnations (and thus prevent that soul from ever being reincarnated) or are they ghosts instilled with the power of the Malfeans and the Solar essence has passed on to be reborn?

I do recommend too that you take great care in your concepts and choices of words to avoid confusion. A ghost in formed after the human soul, not the solar Essence. When an celestial exalt dies the Essence and the soul leave a "mark" on each other. The Essence keeps the memories of the soul, and the soul is empowered by having spent so much time with Essence (hence hungry ghosts and ghosts of solars are so damn powerful).


The ones who became the deathlords were the ghosts of the dead solars (their human souls), while their essences fled back to Yu Shan to be polished and sent back to reincarnation (and here comes the plot of the Jade Prison: capturing the essences and locking them away = no solar reincarnation).


In this case, the ghost of Larquen Quen became Mask of Winters, but his essence kept on reincarnating through centuries because it was not captured in the Jade Prison.


The point about their memories is hard to answer though.


Since Lytek polishes the Essence (= brainwash parts of its past lives), it would be hard for the host of the essence of Larquen Quen to realize that his old incarnation became Mask of Winters, most of all because the Essence was long separated from the soul when the ghost became a deathlord.


In other words: one could remember being a solar, and could probably deduce the true identity of a deathlord from a similarity of behavior between the deathlord and the memories of the past life (if the similarity does exist)... not that the revelation would do any good whatsoever anyway.

 

[Gylthinel]

I scrapped the whole "Lytech cleans their memories" thing. It makes no sense, and isn't nearly as fun as the pre-Lytech-brainscrub days.

 

[cyl]

Well, if you do that, what are the implications of being chosen as an exalt ?!


Multiple personalities disorder ! :lol:


I mean imagine that you suddenly recieve the memories and feelings of several millenias old super powered beings... how your insignificant inexperienced mortal mind would not be swallowed in it ?!

 

[Virjigorm]

As I remember it, the process of dying freed the Exaltations carried by those Solars who were to become Deathlords. They were already ghosts when the Neverborn got to them. Basically their Solar-like powers are empowered memories fueled by malice and the power of the dead Primordials.


Also, there were only 50 Solar Essences made into Infernals, while the Neverborn got to keep 100 of the 150 they got when they broke open the Jade Prison. The rest escaped in that attempt or were not in the prison in the first place.(MoEP:Infernals, pg20)

 

[cordimus]

I'm less interested in a player realizing that they are the reincarnation of a solar that went on to be a Deathlord and more interested in Deathlords or other individuals becoming aware of the exalt's "identity". I know that some of the fluff includes individuals such as Lilith hunting down specific solar reincarnations based on bad blood from the past. I have absolutely no clue how someone would be able to know that a dead lover from a previous cycle is now back in the world and who they are exactly. However, it seems interesting to me if a player is treated with curiosity by their enemies who test and prod the character to see what they will do, only to have the truth revealed to them.


The reason it interests me is because it's hard not to see the Solars as victims. The outrages of the First Age are vague and not really heaped on any individuals shoulders. There are horrific stories, to be sure, but it's inconceivable that any of those evils were perpetrated by the previous incarnations of any of the players. It's hard to express to a player that maybe their previous selves actually kinda deserved what happened to them... maybe not execution and imprisonment for thousands of years, but certainly to drive home the fact that the Solars of the First Age were not necessarily what the characters would define as "good". The whole Anathema identity can fall flat as they characters insist on seeing it through the lens of the solar good guy, who has no idea about the curse and who insists that they lack even a single evil bone in their body.


By tying the identity of a living solar to that of a Deathlord,who is continuing to do evil, it raises the question of "wait? Is that me? Am I capable of being THAT?" It creates a direct link between the characters and the very real identity of evil. Even for those other characters, it makes them wonder what they have done in previous life times. It raises the question of identity and motivation, and if a Solar Essence can be tracked across millennia and multiple incarnations with clarity, then perhaps the line between the Self and the Essence is not so cut and dry and perhaps the Essence will force changes upon the recipient in a way that they cannot predict or control. Even without those memories, is the character capable of becoming such a monster?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

For a Lunar, finding your Solar is...a lot easier than for most others. When you find the person that as soon as you see them you feel an unbreakable Intimacy towards...and perhaps more, depending on your Solar Bond background...gives you a pretty good clue. The tie between their own Exaltation and the single specific Solar Exaltation it is bonded to may even be able to count as a form of Arcane Link, which would even further simplify things.


Similarly, at the least the seats in the Deliberative chambers in Meru are specifically able to determine which Exaltation a Celestial Exalt holds and even inform the bearer of all their past lives the first time they take a seat...or whenever they choose to specifically call up that information directly. If one artifact can do something like that, no reason another could not be made...and all the Deathlords pretty much are master Artificers, master Necromancers, and probably have some viable connections to trying to find the Exaltation which once was theirs...or even that of past friends, foes or the like. In fact, Eye of Seven Despairs holds most of his old Circle's Exaltations, to torment for his own pleasure, as they tormented him when he was alive. Clearly he found some method of determining which ones they were...and he seeks the remaining ones out as a long term personal goal.

 

[cyl]

I had no problem presenting the tragic aspect and the monstruosity of elder solars to the players.


That's what memories and dreams are for.


Imagine a Zenith the absolute good guy, caring and compassionate, remembering sacrificing human hearts at the end of the first age, trying to get the attention of his god (the sacrifice of criminal hearts to the Sun was a common and sacred ritual at the times of the Dragon Kings).


The character would go "wow... that's not me, I can't do those things !" and he would be right... it was not him that sacrificed all those people in vain, but the true questions underneath would be "if everything was right back in the first age... how did my predecessor could have become so screwed up ?! and "Am I going to go nuts too ?!"... if your player keeps blinding himself to the obvious truth, consider the character in denial, and make him face it with undeniable proof (ruins of a fallen city destroyed by his predecessor, records of the first age etc etc)... til he breaks and accept it.


You can also present selfish / evil solars, like Havesh the Vanisher or Ophilis Ses... those guys are definitely not heroes... have a try at the "voldemort approach" (he was destined to do great things, and he did... terrible things... but great !)


The solars are indeed victims, but not of the Usurpation, this was one valid option among other at the time... they're victims of the Curse, and victims of other people's stupidity (starting with the Sun and the gods who are aware of the Curse but choose not to pipe a word).


And yeah, the monster will reappear... it's what the curse is for ! :twisted:

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Don't even NEED the curse to have monsters appear. Enough centuries as a nigh immortal demigod, and actually giving a damn about the ants at your feet begins to become...less than important, in many cases...

 

[DasDom]

I've started to present the moral ambiguity Solars can possess by introducing Filial Wisdom in the Rathess campaign...but I made him a better actor and let the players become friends with him...he than inevitably turned on the players as soon as they finished of his Fair Folk enemies...who tried to get through to the players to warn them.


Now they are asking themselves how he could become such a twisted parodie of their self-conception of righteous Solar heroes...though they blame Han-Tha at the moment, they've become less sure of themselves.

 

[cyl]

Don't even NEED the curse to have monsters appear. Enough centuries as a nigh immortal demigod' date=' and actually giving a damn about the ants at your feet begins to become...less than important, in many cases...[/quote']
Hmm I'm not so sure about that.


Obviously the first age solars grew bored, even though they had some challenges at their times, they did not have formidable foes like Deathlords & their knights and the Infernals, plus the world was theirs and they were unchallenged...


Today it's going to take more than a few circles spreaded all across Creation to rebuild their status and get things done... I think they'll be busy for a millenium setting things right again, then count another millenium or two to get back more or less to the way things were in the First Age (technology & all)... and perhaps then they'll start to go nuts because of inactivity.


One thing puzzles me though... why did the exalts never tried to play the Games of Divinity ?!


I kinda remember the Sun setting in the stone that no exalts should ever play them (figures... you addict ! :twisted: ), but they seem to have never taken any interest in the games... which is strange coming from 300 bored demi gods. :|

 

[Virjigorm]

In my long-running game (not to be confused with my other, short-lived, bad idea games :? ), the Eclipse PC just completed a story arc whereby she discovered her previous incarnation's tomb and, in the process, that he was a total jerk. She found evidence that he had applied mind-scouring Solar charms to his Lunar mate in the throes of psychotic paranoia and turned a 5 dot Solar bond into a powerful unnatural driving Motivation and replacement Stewardship. He did this because he had become so (pathologically) afraid of betrayal he felt he had to. When the Solar was killed, the mind-warping he had wrought caused the Lunar to go completely insane in the face of his failure and loss and ultimately turn to the Neverborn for immortality and the ability to stand guard over the Solar's tomb for eternity (he became a Lunar-Abyssal).


All this would have been a lot for her to handle, but my PCs also encountered the LunarByssal himself(now Essence 7 and completely crazy) and she took it upon herself to try to help him. I was very pleased with how the theme of redemption for him turned into a redemption for her. She worked for years to right the wrongs done by her former self and ultimately, with the help of Lytek, managed to free the Lunar exaltation and redeem the man. He lost his exaltation in the process, but got to live out the rest of his mortal life free of the whispers of Oblivion. It was a very deep period of character development and caused her to question the authority of her own divine station.


These days, the same character (who's player loves this sort of thing) is past her first century of Exaltation and dealing with the repercussions of being a mother and wife to a family she will outlive. Her husband is Dragon-Blooded, but he is nearly 200, and so firmly in the grip of middle-age, while she looks younger than their son. Add to this a Lunar suitor who has vowed to "wait for her" until the DB husband kicks off, and the burden of immortality comes out front and center. I am curious to see where she'll take the character; into cynical removal from mortal trappings, or into the noble, but tragic embrace of humanity as long as it lasts. Having a Compassion Flaw isn't going to help.

 

[cyl]

Well you could soothe her with the intervention of a friendly spirit who has had to deal with the same problems.


After all death is a natural part of life, so is reincarnation.


That or she could master her virtues and flaw with Celestial Monkey Style training ! :wink:

 

[vegetalss4]

One thing puzzles me though... why did the exalts never tried to play the Games of Divinity ?!


I kinda remember the Sun setting in the stone that no exalts should ever play them (figures... you addict ! :twisted: ), but they seem to have never taken any interest in the games... which is strange coming from 300 bored demi gods. :|

which is why he didn't say: no exalt should play the Games of Divinity, he said: NO exalts may EVER as much as enter the building that the Games of Divinity are in.


because ifthey see them, they may take them from us.he knew that if the exalted host saw the Games they would take them.

 

[cyl]

My question was, why the exalts never tried to break in ?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

My question was, why the exalts never tried to break in ?

Because they were already too busy doing things like Operation Wyldhand to keep themselves from being bored. Not to mention snorting Celestial Cocaine off various concubines and passing around the Peaches of Immortality like party favors. Add in that the Incarna World of Warcrack habit means they can do whatever they want without serious oversight...

 

[Plague of Hats]

My question was, why the exalts never tried to break in ?

I like to think that they did so, twice, and failed. One attempt was a lone Solar or maybe a circle, early in the First Age when "lawlessness" reigned more than it did later. Probably just waltzed right into Heaven and started demanding shit. Spectacular battle, etc.
The second time was a legislative effort. After that last time, of course, the gods were a'feared beyond all get out, and did their level best to legislate the problem away. The Sidereals were probably a great help, what with getting more than a little worried about their lords and ladies. Luckily, the Solars eventually let the effort fail. After all, who the shit cares about some dumb game the gods think is so great, when you can wander off into the Wyld and fashion your own little world that is quite literally metaphysically weighted to produce multiple-orgasm-inducing resort beach vistas?


The gods still shiver in the memory of how closely they dodged the bullet on that last one.

 

[cyl]

Well, I'd assume that if an exalt had seen the GoD, his mind would have been as addicted as the gods and god blooded.


Strange thing to allow god blooded by the way... since there are more of them than exalts, and they could be forced into telling how it feels (apparently better than creating worlds, if so the Incarnaes would have created more...), creating an interest for the solars.


I really don't understand this part of the background... the Games look like the perfect focus for any millenias-old-bored-to-death solar... there should have been war in heaven.

 

[Plague of Hats]

The Games are a conceit to keep the biggest, baddest gods out of the world's hair so that the PCs have a reason to save it. To this end, there's got to be some reason the Exalted did not fully understand how great they were.


Concealment is an easy enough part of the solution, and can even be self-reinforcing. It's pretty damn easy for Solars to render themselves immune to whatever the Games would do to them, but they don't have a particularly great reason to know that they must be immunized. In the rare instance that they have captured a chance to be on the field, they were unprepared and burnt to ashes by the magnificence of it all. Of course, a major component would be information suppression and disinformation.


If anything has mentioned that God-bloods get to actually participate, that source is incorrect. It would burn them to cinders. When it comes to peripherally addicting yourself to the dreamstones...you're addicting yourself to a remembrance in a dream. Something that might spur investigation, but not substantive enough information to call for all out war.


Remember, even at the height of the First Age, there was no war in Heaven. The Solars did not value its riches enough and/or respected the gods enough not to claim it as a territory, despite the fact that they very easily would have won.

(apparently better than creating worlds, if so the Incarnaes would have created more...)

The Incarnae are pretty shitty at building worlds.

 

[vegetalss4]

huh, i thougth that the only danger of the Games of Divinity is that it addicts you, not that it actually could kill you. do you have a page reference on that one Plague of Hats?

 

[Plague of Hats]

huh, i thougth that the only danger of the Games of Divinity is that it addicts you, not that it actually could kill you. do you have a page reference on that one Plague of Hats?

Somewhere in First Edition's Sidereals or Games of Divinity, I believe. It's too glorious to behold for those not fully divine (a category including gods and titans, but not Exalted). Maybe somewhere in Compass: Yu-Shan.

 

[Persell]

Its in the Lexicon of Compass: Yu-Shan. I'm sure its in the body of the work too. So yeah, the Games of Divinity basically melts Exalts like the Ark in Indiana Jones.