Problem Players?

[Persell]

I have another problem player now however.  He is playing a Night caste solar and has decided he wants Terrestrial Sorcery starting out.  
My personal view of exaltatiosn is that the charms and such that you get when you begin represent those things that your character probably mastered in his or her past lives, I dont' really see a night caste solar being a  great sorcerer in a previous life.


Does anyone else have any ideas how i might disuade him other than an out and out No, or do peopel think I am being unreasonable?

You're being unreasonable. EVERY Exalt knew Terrestrial Circle Sorcery in their past lives, it was like learning to read. Also, a good lot of them (for Solars especially) knew Celestial and Solar Circle Sorcery. While I would never allow the third one without great justification, the Celestial Circle Sorcery is accessible at chargen for Solars, and with enough justification, it should be allowed imho. If the guy was Exalted 5 years ago, he had plenty of time developping this degree of mastery over sorcery, going to ancient sacred places and everything.


If you want the guy to have had to read a copy of the White Treatise, why son't you simply ask him to have stolen it from a travelling DB? He's a Night Caste, for God's sake!

Besides those players that have personal issues with things, how do you deal with the players that are lazy, in my case not feelign liek writing up a background for their character or describing to me how they exalted?

Tell him you'll make the decisions for him if he doesn't. Do it if he does not respond to that threat. Make sure his Exaltation happened at the wrogn place and time, like in the middle of Nexus, or in an Immaculate-ridden place, and make sure that the Immaculate Order has his description because of it. Make this plain to the player. He'll either accept to give you a background or make one quite faster than otherwise. Be a little demanding, do not accept "my family was killed and I exalted 1000 miles away from any civilisation and I like being on my own."

I also have a player who feels like they need to know a ton of information about Exalted world before they feel comfortable putting down anythign about their character in writing?  The same player has refused to read the books I have and that I offered to let him borrow.  He has never played the game before, he is a ton of history role-palying, 2 years I have been playing with him and I am sure he has played for many years before that.  His tendency is definitely towards a min max personality, which I really don't care about for character creation because I find Exalted fairly well balanced and I can always deal with stats to combat him and make things difficult.  I am more interested in getting the RP out of him so that I have an idea of how he plans to play the character and if he is could become a problem in the game or not.

You don't have to take the place of the book. You're see,m to be entirely right in this. If someone is not ready to read the book, it's just too bad for the person.

 

[Andrew02]

Oh! Well then. Maybe not so bad that I missed it.

Depends. Initially it actually seemed like Jakk had some fight in him . . . but eventually it wasn't even neccessary for Joseph to point out how badly Jakk was contradicting himself and avoiding addressing Joseph's points.

 

[Joseph]

You're being unreasonable. EVERY Exalt knew Terrestrial Circle Sorcery in their past lives, it was like learning to read. Also, a good lot of them (for Solars especially) knew Celestial and Solar Circle Sorcery. While I would never allow the third one without great justification, the Celestial Circle Sorcery is accessible at chargen for Solars, and with enough justification, it should be allowed imho. If the guy was Exalted 5 years ago, he had plenty of time developping this degree of mastery over sorcery, going to ancient sacred places and everything.

I agree with Loremaster on this.  Just about every Celestial Exaltation will have, at some point in history, Exalted someone who opted to learn SOME measure of Sorcery.  


Personally, I hate what a big deal they've made out of learning Sorcery.  The whole sorcerous initiation thing seems like rubbish to me, which is why it's not a part of my games.  In my games, it's almost the exact opposite; when the Yozis gave the Exalted Sorcery, they gave it to them in such a way that every Celestial Shard actually almost PUSHES for it's host to learn Sorcery eventually, and left to their own devices every Exalt WILL eventually learn it within a few hundred years.  This isn't canon, but I think it creates a much more compelling setting and world view than the current canonical rules on it, and also is a hell of a lot easier.  How do you become a Sorcerer?  You let your shard guide you to it, and you'll naturally "figure it out" within a reasonable time frame.


Terrestrials, of course, still need to be taught; they have the potential, but no shard pushing them towards it.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Little Joe--If you'd like to continue the discussion...this isn't the place to do it. I actually did have a few points that were lost when the old Compendium disappeared, and if you'd like to continue the discussion, we can, but this is hardly the thread to do so.


For those who weren't involved, it probably was boring. What was  interesting is that Little Joe missed his own contradictory points...but that is fodder for another thread, and the Off Topic forum.  This is Still's baby, and I think it might be better for the entire forum if we kept our discussions in those bounderies.

 

[psychoph]

If i am understanding Loremaster and Joseph correctly you would allow a newbie exalted player playing a night caste to have upto Celestal sorcery at the beginning of game.


I personally like the level of difficulty of obtaining sorcery, I think it adds a bunch to the story. It adds a quest for each character potentially and makes sorcery more meaningful than charms that a Exalted can just obtain simply by being.  I always took this as the intended difference.


I think i have two problems with the notion of Terrestrial sorcery with castes other than Twilight at character gen.


1. The player himself is completely new to the game and hasn't even read the main book.  He wants the charm because it sounds wa spiff and cool, which imo is not a role-play reason for a person to have it.


2. The group that is playing needs the night caste player to be able to do the night caste things.  I could see if there were 2 night castes inthe group allowing one of them to take sorcery, but the story necesitates that someone in the group be able to sneak and spy and steal, in fact it is the complete basis for the players character.  He has bene an urchin all his life there is nothign in his personality or background to even suggest sorcery ever was interesting to him at all.


3. He will be taking away from the twilight characters abilities, which may not be a problem for a lot of gaming groups but it happens to be an issue in mine as everyone seems ot have a me me me personality 50% of the time.


I think I would probably tend to agree with both of you about the sorcery if my players were more experienced and had at least read the sorcery seciton of Savant and Sorcerer and had some iota of what sorcery was about.

 

[Persell]

psycoph, this is what's called a "self-correcting problem".


My advice to you: Let him make the character he wants. Give him what he asks for. Refuse to give him "extra" points for goodies. Abjure him that, because his abilities are so spread out, his inherent caste abilities - the ones the party are depending on him for - will be commensurately weaker.


And then, when he totally scrubs his first stealth mission (and he will), kill him.


I'm certain his SECOND character will be much more balanced and survival-oriented.


- Ebbil Mempo

 

[Persell]

If i am understanding Loremaster and Joseph correctly you would allow a newbie exalted player playing a night caste to have upto Celestal sorcery at the beginning of game.

I'd require great justification for Celestial Circle. The story you gave me about the night would not cut it, but if the night wants to be able to crush magical defences in the places he robs, and needs terrestrial sorcery + Counter Magic to do it, then why not? Infaillible Messenger would be very useful to tell the group about the Night Caste's findings, and Stormwind Rider would allow him fair escape when things get too dicey.

I personally like the level of difficulty of obtaining sorcery, I think it adds a bunch to the story. It adds a quest for each character potentially and makes sorcery more meaningful than charms that a Exalted can just obtain simply by being.  I always took this as the intended difference.

I agree for the two latter circles. The first one could have been done before.

I think i have two problems with the notion of Terrestrial sorcery with castes other than Twilight at character gen.
1. The player himself is completely new to the game and hasn't even read the main book.  He wants the charm because it sounds wa spiff and cool, which imo is not a role-play reason for a person to have it.

Have you read the book? Exalted is all about spiffy and cool! That IS reason enough, in this game, at least for the basic powers like terrestrial sorcery.

2. The group that is playing needs the night caste player to be able to do the night caste things.  I could see if there were 2 night castes inthe group allowing one of them to take sorcery, but the story necesitates that someone in the group be able to sneak and spy and steal, in fact it is the complete basis for the players character.  He has bene an urchin all his life there is nothign in his personality or background to even suggest sorcery ever was interesting to him at all.

And taking one Charm + counterspell in Occult will prevent him to do that? The skills themselves are often pretty spiffy, you know, and just having Graceful Crane Stance, Monkey Leap Technique, Flawless Pickpocket Technique, Lock Opening Touch and Door Evading Technique can make one hell of a thief/spy. That's 5 Charms. Along with good skills and attributes and specialties, a thief with those can kick ass.

3. He will be taking away from the twilight characters abilities, which may not be a problem for a lot of gaming groups but it happens to be an issue in mine as everyone seems ot have a me me me personality 50% of the time.

No, he won't. They just don't have to buy the same spells. The Twilight does not even need to be a sorcerer at all, in fact. In my old group, the Eclipse had known more spells than the Twilight for like half the game before the twilight caught on with Celestial Circle Sorcery. It happens. It's not wrong.


Some spells they might like to duplicate: Infallible Messenger and Stormwind Rider, especially, will allow the whole group to work well when split. This opens up a can of possibilities your typical gaming group does not have. 3 of my characters knew Stormwind Rider in that same old game, and I'll tell you, neither has ever shown any regret for that investment. They could never be in a tight spot. Ever. That's something they were ready to pay for.

I think I would probably tend to agree with both of you about the sorcery if my players were more experienced and had at least read the sorcery seciton of Savant and Sorcerer and had some iota of what sorcery was about.

It seems to me you're judging your players harshly. Do they also have ot read Scavenger Sons because they live in the east, and Blood and Salt because they have a boat? Some players consider that this really is just a game, after all, and there's nothing wrong with that!

 

[psychoph]

You make valid points. I have a tendency as a ST to close off character creation tightly and then allow more as game goes on.  With my group it seems the reason I do this is that none of my players can give me good story reasons for things they have.  


Case in point the night caste didn't give me any reason of how or why he had terrestrial sorcery, it just popped up as oh yeah i took that charm too cause i had occult 2.  


Most stuff will fit in fine with any standard background, but I do the same thing with charms too if it doesn't seem to fit I go huh and ask for why and if I can't get a reason I say no way.


I have learned that this is better to say no in the beginning and then let things in rather than let it happen in the beginning and have to try to reighn in the character because he is taking things because they are stats on a sheet and not for story reasons.


I would agree that all those reasons are damn good ones to have sorcery, but I know he didn't think of any of them.

 

[Persell]

You make valid points. I have a tendency as a ST to close off character creation tightly and then allow more as game goes on.  With my group it seems the reason I do this is that none of my players can give me good story reasons for things they have.  
I have learned that this is better to say no in the beginning and then let things in rather than let it happen in the beginning and have to try to reighn in the character because he is taking things because they are stats on a sheet and not for story reasons.


I would agree that all those reasons are damn good ones to have sorcery, but I know he didn't think of any of them.

Okay, now that is a problem you have every right to deal with. What I would do is this: decide for him that he had stolen the White Treatise from some DB he didn't know. Make sure that DB isn't a nameless dude, but someone the Night should not have stolen from. Use this in your story.


Make his character regret this turn of events by being chased mercilessly by DB sorcerers with bodyguards, instead of the Immaculate ones (the sorcerer is looking for revenge and glory by taking out this Anathema).


You could also make this book much more precious. Say, it's got 15 spells in it! The DB REALLY wants it back, at all costs. Great plot hook.


Or it might have been the Guild's. Screw with the Guild, and they'll end up screwing you too!


Or he might have found his old tomb. And now he must protect it, otherwise something very bad happens (he is linked with his tomb somehow). Just give him a reason, and use it extensively.


I agree it's not anywhere as cool as having a player think about those things by himself, but it seems it's the best you've got.

 

[psychoph]

All defintiely potential story ideas I can use.


I beleive the current situation sits that the player in question decided to make my life and his life easier and not take it.


I will have to talk to all the players about sorcery before the game starts tonight because I think your point about communication and travel are definitely good ones and something the players might want to consider for the future of their characters.


One player (totally different form the night caste this is the twilight solar) already has the two thesis he stole from what I beleive will be a dead DB.  The idea i proposed to him was that he was an assistant/slave to a DB sorcerer in the realm and that during a contested Battle of wills with a Demon that the DB summoned the DB lost and was killed.  The player exalted at that point and was able to put down the demon in some fashion.  Thus the player would be able to obtain all the books in the DB's library and then have ot run for his life.  The player still hasn't given me a background hopefully tonight.

 

[Maryuoh]

Excerpt from an article by Anthony Alongi. It's about multiplayer Magic, but it applies equally well to storytelling.

]1) Get It Out In The Open
You know something about human nature? Not everyone speaks out when they're ticked. Sometimes, problems fester without anyone addressing the problem. Then they blow up, and it's too late.


Before you try anything new – a new format, a new deck, a new group – try something old: talk. Talk to your group about the problem you see. Then listen.


Maybe there isn't a problem at all, beyond your perception. Maybe there's a big problem and everyone's dying to talk about it. Chances are, others feel the same tension you do and just need a chance to talk it out.


When you open the topic, present it humbly. Do not point fingers. You've noticed something's wrong, you feel badly, the group is so important, it's usually such a blast, so do others see a problem? If so, what can we think of to solve the problem?

I've noticed a recurring pattern over the years of people on forums giving Storyteller advice that's needlessly complex and sneaky. Most of the time talking honestly and politely (or no less politely than the normal level of courtesy for your playgroup, anyway) gets problems a step towards being solved. If that fails, then I don't see the point of all the elaborate plans of punishment killings and embarassing the PCs; you probably just shouldn't RP with these people anymore, it's going to make you or them unhappy. Staying around to crush their Warrior/Rogue/Bard with falling boulders is just vindictive and petty.


On the case of background information... over time, I've grown into the habit both as a PC and as an ST of not caring too much if the player characters don't have firmly detailed histories at creation. I like to leave the main characters' pasts somewhat up in the air. It allows the entire group time to become comfortable with their characters, get a better understanding of who these people are (multiple times I've played characters that I realized after a couple weeks of RPing were much more of a bastard or much less of a bitch than I had initially thought), as well as allowing many plot openings for the ST to work into the game.