Primordial war wonderings

[Jukashi]

It is said, in the books, that He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word was the very first primordial to suffer fetich death and be turned into a Yozi. But, if that's the case, what happened to him between then and the end of the war? Malfeas didn't exist until the king of the primordials was defeated, presumably at the time that they all surrendered and were deliberately fetich-death'dd; but other primordials must have had fetich death and re-formed before then, and likely in a much less controlled fashion.


Was there some sort of pre-Malfeas yozi-prison, one that must have been less secure than Mafleas? Did they have oaths forced on them there and then, implying that those first Yozis had subtly different oaths to those that came later? Were they just incapacitated by re-forming to such a degree that they were essentially out of the war until it was over?


Were they Yozis at all? Fetich death makes a primordial reform, but I was under the impression that they only become a Yozi if it's done in a certain way and they take oaths to diminish themselves and be bound into Malfeas; otherwise they just became a somewhat new but still whole primordial.

 

[magnificentmomo]

I think the Primordials that suffered fetich death but did not completely die just reformed and continued fighting. It wasn't until enough had truly died did they surrender en mass, I believe.

 

[Jukashi]

I think the Primordials that suffered fetich death but did not completely die just reformed and continued fighting. It wasn't until enough had truly died did they surrender en mass, I believe.

But, again with HWBtUW, he reformed directly into Elloge, the Sphere of Silence. Who is still around in Malfeas. To be a yozi now, he would either have to have become one then, before the surrender, or have been killed again with the rest of the primordials. Which he wasn't.

 

[Persell]

Or, most likely, they just messed up some setting continuity. Like when they said that Five-Days Darkness studied under the Ebon Dragon right after he was created...except there was no Ebon Dragon right after he was created.

 

[Thanqol]

"Yozi" is not a thing. There is no such entity or being as "Yozi". There is no metaphysical distinction between "Yozi" and "non-Yozi". Your hair doesn't change colour and you don't start sucking when you become a Yozi, or when you stop being one.


"Yozi" is a propaganda devise used by the Exalted to justify their deicide. Just like the term "Demon". There's no distinction between one of the Five Elemental Dragons and Liger metaphysically. They're both Primordial souls. But Liger is a "Demon" because it looks better on the propaganda posters to say "We overthrew the Yozi and their demon-spawn" than "We overthrew the Primordial World builders and massacred their souls".


"Yozi", like "Demon", is an insult. Not a metaphysical state.

 

[Persell]

Actually a Yozi is a thing. It's a noun with a definition and everything. Right there in the front of the Core book. Demons are the souls of Yozi. Just like a prisoner is a thing and is different from some one who is not. Also, metaphysics is a branch of philosophy. Demon and Elementals, Yozi and Primordials are all, by definition, metaphysically different.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

"Yozi" is not a thing. There is no such entity or being as "Yozi". There is no metaphysical distinction between "Yozi" and "non-Yozi". Your hair doesn't change colour and you don't start sucking when you become a Yozi, or when you stop being one.
"Yozi" is a propaganda devise used by the Exalted to justify their deicide. Just like the term "Demon". There's no distinction between one of the Five Elemental Dragons and Liger metaphysically. They're both Primordial souls. But Liger is a "Demon" because it looks better on the propaganda posters to say "We overthrew the Yozi and their demon-spawn" than "We overthrew the Primordial World builders and massacred their souls".


"Yozi", like "Demon", is an insult. Not a metaphysical state.

Uhm...no. Considering that you require different methods to summon Demons and Elementals, whether with Sorcery or with Thaumaturgy...and many other magical effects react differently depending on what sort of being the target is, no, it's not just a word. Or perhaps more accurately, those words have POWER, and change the nature of what they are applied to. Either way, there is indeed a metaphysical difference between different types of being, and between a broken Yozi and Gaia. You cannot summon an Elemental Dragon with Demon of the 3rd Circle and compel it to your service. To do so, you would have to first slay Gaia's fetich and force her to take oaths and be broken. Yozi and Demon are NOT just insults. When magic reacts differently depending on whether the target is a God, Demon, Elemental, Ghost, or Mortal, Exalt, Dragon King, Fae, Enlightened Mortal, Automaton, or what have you...there are indeed metaphysical differences. And Demons react differently than Gods. It's a measurable difference, that can be quantified within the reality, and not just a different name.

 

[Kyeudo]

I have to agree with Thanqol. The only metaphysical difference between the Five Elemental Dragons and Ligier is that Ligier's progenitor has sworn an oath allowing his component souls to be used as the servants of the Exalted.


When one becomes a Yozi is when the Primordial swears to the oaths of surrender. No soul-pruning is strictly necessary, but the Exalted did so to remove the fallen Primordials ability to create things entirely new to prevent them from making an unforseen way out of their prison. Perhaps Elloge, the Sphere of Silence, lost his creative spark in his first transformation and needed no further maiming to properly contain.

 

[Thanqol]

Demons can be summoned because of the nature of their surrender oath, not because they are metaphysically different from other Primordial souls. It's an external force (a promise) acting on them rather than an internal force (a change in essence makeup which reacts to chants and rituals) that causes them to appear when summoned. Theoretically, if Gaia swore an oath to let her shit get summoned that would be part of the same spell.

 

[Persell]

Okay, everything you just stated that makes them different, makes them metaphysically different. That's how metaphysics works. It's philosophy, not science. They have differences in their very nature. Ligier is altered by his very oaths. The Oaths are what make the Yozi the Yozi. The Oaths change their nature on a fundamental level.

 

[Virjigorm]

To get back to the original thread, I think the issue about Primordial fetich death occurring before the creation of the Yozi's prison is just a matter of bad word choice. HWBtUW suffered fetich death in the Primordial War and was the first to become other. Stating that it was the first to become a Yozi is just a bit imprecise, since the term applies to imprisoned Primordials who surrendered and bound themselves with their oaths to escape death at Exalted hands. Unless that latter definition is imprecise and the term Yozi should refer to any Primordial who has suffered fetich death and been fundamentally changed. Take your pick, it's still just a matter of semantics.

 

[MorkaisChosen]

Maybe he swore the Oaths and became the Sphere of Silence before the end of the War, and then Malfeas was formed around him at the end.


Standard Pitiful Newbie Stance disclaimer- my Knowing-About-Yozis fu is very weak..

 

[Persell]

That is a possibility. There are a few possible explanations. Take what you think makes the best story and go with it.

 

[Kyeudo]

Also, remember that both sides employed time travel and so He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word could have been the first casualty and the last casualty.

 

[Jukashi]

the oath is the only difference

But, being primordials, their oaths change their own nature. If Gaia swore an oath to let her souls be summoned, she would be changing her own souls to allow them to be called, and in so doing change herself. The Yozis oaths were much more extensive, so if they all swore the same oath, they've all been changed in the same way - enough to be, metaphysically and categorically, a coherent group with shared traits that "whole" primordials don't have.

 

[Thanqol]

the oath is the only difference

But, being primordials, their oaths change their own nature. If Gaia swore an oath to let her souls be summoned, she would be changing her own souls to allow them to be called, and in so doing change herself. The Yozis oaths were much more extensive, so if they all swore the same oath, they've all been changed in the same way - enough to be, metaphysically and categorically, a coherent group with shared traits that "whole" primordials don't have.

The Yozi would still be called Yozi if a group of Infernals broke their surrender oaths and loosed them on Creation.

 

[Andoriol]

But, being primordials, their oaths change their own nature. If Gaia swore an oath to let her souls be summoned, she would be changing her own souls to allow them to be called, and in so doing change herself. The Yozis oaths were much more extensive, so if they all swore the same oath, they've all been changed in the same way - enough to be, metaphysically and categorically, a coherent group with shared traits that "whole" primordials don't have.

The Yozi would still be called Yozi if a group of Infernals broke their surrender oaths and loosed them on Creation.

... because they had still undergone the oaths as well as fetich death?


The thing is, if you turn Malfeas right-side in again and break his oaths, wouldn't he/she/it stop being Malfeas as we know him/her/it? Unless I'm mis-remembering (which I easily could be), Malfeas wasn't Malfeas as a primordeal, Malfeas is only Malfeas because that Primordeal surrendered, accepted the oaths, suffered fetich death, and was subsequently turned inside out.


Even if you break the oaths and loose them on Creation, they're still termed Yozi's because you've only reversed a portion of the process and we don't have a name for the in-between state.


They're Primordeals when they were the creators of the world, they're Yozi's when they have suffered fetich death (thus mutating into a new form and a different creature of unimaginable power) and undergone the oaths. But once they've become a Yozi, the only way to stop being one is to either somehow regrow that lost soul and break their oaths, or they have to become something else.


...


At least, that's how I'm seeing it from what else has been said in the thread as well as other things I've picked up from elsewhere.

 

[Thanqol]

Not all of the Yozi suffered fetich death. Malfeas and Adorjan are the only ones specifically noted to have undergone that, and it is suggested that this is a horrifying, utter, complete and uncontrollable shift in paradigm that completely redesigns the Primordial in question and something the other Primordials regard as horrifying. Adorjan and Malfeas are crazy, even by Primordial standards.


I believe the others had some third circle souls pruned, but nothing as extreme as fetich death.

 

[Persell]

All Yozi suffered fetich death as part of their surrender oaths. It's how the Incarnea were able to impose the oaths in the first place.

 

[Thanqol]

All Yozi suffered fetich death as part of their surrender oaths. It's how the Incarnea were able to impose the oaths in the first place.

I believe this is false. Do you have citation?

 

[Jagane]

All Yozi suffered fetich death as part of their surrender oaths. It's how the Incarnea were able to impose the oaths in the first place.

I believe this is false. Do you have citation?

Not all Yozi suffered fetish death, though quite a few of them did, Compass of Celestial Directions: Malfeas says,


"The beings known as the Yozis were born at the


instant the surviving Primordials surrendered to the


gods.... It was then that the Primordial king’s fetich


was ritualistically slaughtered, turning the king inside


out and causing him to change from monarch to living


prison. It was in this moment that the great monarch


of the Primordials became Malfeas, the Demon City.


Even those Primordials who saw their fetiches survive


were never quite the same thereafter. Transformed by


defeat, shock and the murders of their component souls,


they were cast into the mutilated body of their king


and sealed inside. ... Thus, the beings that ruled and


fought as Primordials surrendered and were imprisoned


as Yozis. ... It is not a change as profound as the death


that came to the Neverborn, but it nevertheless altered the


Yozis’ outlook and goals. Where once they ruled all Creation, they


now rule a prison of their king’s own flesh. It is a state


of affairs that has persisted for thousands of years." -page 8


So apparently some just needed a bit of soul pruning, not necessarily fetish pruning, and it seems that the surrender oaths were the main framework for their exile.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Not all of the Yozi suffered fetich death. Malfeas and Adorjan are the only ones specifically noted to have undergone that,

Technically, Cecelyne has been added to the list. Not that that's one of the rare things worth paying attention to in those chapters of Manual: Infernals.

I believe the others had some third circle souls pruned, but nothing as extreme as fetich death.

It's sort of suggested that everyone lost at least one Third Circle soul, even if it was one of least regard. I think it's more interesting if soul mutilation is not necessary to Yozi existence, especially since this affords the opportunity that relatively innocent, sane Primordials were locked up with their more damaged kin. Especially if those particular prisoners were more noncombatant than others, meaning that they were just Gaia on the wrong side and could've possibly lived peaceably enough after the War if not for the vindictive triumph of the gods and Exalted.

 

[Jukashi]

It's possible that altering Malfeas was the only thing necessary to transform the others - he was the King, after all. Wasn't there a hint somewhere that primordials were only able to die because pre-Malfeas was persuaded/tricked into killing one of his siblings first, and that changed the way the others all worked so that they could die, too? If they were loyal to him, then as primordials they would be linking part of their own nature to his, and so changing him would change them. That's probably why he was able to be their prison in the first place - turning the bonds of fealty into bonds of imprisonment.


The only living primordials that remained whole, one notices, are Auto and Gaia (who are traitors) the ones who ran away (deserters), both of which were thus no longer loyal to the primordial King.


Interesting thoughts, since it implies that 1) if Malfeas were killed, before or after the primordial war, there would be no other way to make a Yozi prison and 2) if a "free" primordial was put under oath and/or fetich-deathed, that still wouldn't imprison them in Malfeas.

It's sort of suggested that everyone lost at least one Third Circle soul' date=' even if it was one of least regard. I think it's more interesting if soul mutilation is not necessary to Yozi existence, especially since this affords the opportunity that relatively innocent, sane Primordials were locked up with their more damaged kin. Especially if those particular prisoners were more noncombatant than others, meaning that they were just Gaia on the wrong side and could've possibly lived peaceably enough after the War if not for the vindictive triumph of the gods and Exalted.[/quote']
I've wondered if maybe He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word would have been one of these. He was first to be defeated, so probably he never realized it was possible for the Gods to win the war. If he had, he might have defected, because humanity was on the side of the gods. His concept was language, and it's only humans who, apparently, make up new languages at all. All those different kinds of writing, speaking, signing - every other species only uses one language of their own, at most, and Old Realm. He probably liked humans.


That might be why a city made from his body was so benign.

 

[cyl]

IIRC the Yozi term may be applied to any Primordial whose nature has changed but is still alive (as opposed to the Neverborn), through fetish either death or other means (death and reformation of a significant number of component souls)... because once it has shifted, he's not a Primordial any longer, he's a different lesser version of his former self.


The term and state of being may not limited to the sole "former prisoners of Malfeas who have sworn an oath of servitude to the exalted".


Perhaps 'tis why HWBtUW could have become and called a Yozi even before Malfeas was reformed into a prison for his brothers and sisters (that or we are facing another case of poor editing).


"Demon" however is definitely limited the twisted progeny of the Yozis and their souls imprisoned in Malfeas... no one would dare calling the spiritual offspring of Gaia, the Great Maker, or the surviving Primordials "demons".

 

[Plague of Hats]

Wasn't there a hint somewhere that primordials were only able to die because pre-Malfeas was persuaded/tricked into killing one of his siblings first, and that changed the way the others all worked so that they could die, too?

Only fan hypothesis. Malfeas surrendered in stunned horror when it was revealed that his siblings could actually, truly die in a final fashion. (Surely not himself, though!) There's no hint that this had to be by his own "hand," and that would kind of undermine a couple of things: 1) The agency of the Exalted during the Primordial War, 2) The established mechanic that titanic Charms cannot kill titans worse than fetich death.

Interesting thoughts, since it implies that 1) if Malfeas were killed, before or after the primordial war, there would be no other way to make a Yozi prison and 2) if a "free" primordial was put under oath and/or fetich-deathed, that still wouldn't imprison them in Malfeas.

Eh, I think both of these possibilities are unnecessarily restrictive to no good end.

That might be why a city made from his body was so benign.

Wouldn't that be deliciously tragic?

IIRC the Yozi term may be applied to any Primordial whose nature has changed but is still alive (as opposed to the Neverborn), through fetish either death or other means (death and reformation of a significant number of component souls)...

"Yozi" has been established so far only to mean titans trapped within Malfeas and bound by surrender oaths. There's very little expansion on the idea from which to derive more complex meanings.

Perhaps 'tis why HWBtUW could have become and called a Yozi even before Malfeas was reformed into a prison for his brothers and sisters (that or we are facing another case of poor editing).

I don't recall He Who Bleeds the Unknown Word being referred to as a Yozi in a pre-War-victory capacity.