Player/Character Disparity

[magnificentmomo]

How do you handle the conundrums presented by the disparity between player ability and character ability?


Exalted's social combat, I feel, lends itself well to this: allowing the conversationally inept to still be socially controlling characters, and rewarding those who are cunning with stunting. What about other abilities? Say your character should be rather smart and cunning, but you can't come up with a plan. Would you roll appropriate stats and if you succeed you and the ST figure something out appropriate to how well you succeeded? I would only do this if the entire group is drawing a blank.


Then on the other hand you, the player, have an awesome idea but you, the character, don't have the stats to back it up. I think grunting out the most basic version, or nugget, of the plan and hope the appropriate character catches on and realizes your plan, and maybe more! Which I feel would be a very rewarding RP experience.


I just would really like to hear your thoughts on the matter as a whole, not just the examples given.

 

[skafte]

One of the easy places to be anoyed with your stats is with Intelligence. Lets face it, none of use have an Int in real life above the low 4 and it's probably also the fewest of us that have one less than 3.


So not being able to figure out your STs plan and knowing that your character would have can be a pain.


Normally, with the ones i play with, if we get stuck at a point where we have characters that could figure it out, we roll the dices and the ST gives us some more clues that hopefully will help.


Having a character that is too stupid have never really need a problem. We tend to take everything, or more situations, as a group thing. so my character may not come up with the idea I have, but I may throw it to another player that would. Of course, this have to be held on a level where everybody, and specially the ST feel that a player actually have to think for themself. And there can be situations where a player are on her own, but it have not really been a problem for other players to not help when they shouldn't.

 

[Arthur]

Double posting, sorry.

 

[Arthur]

One of the easy places to be anoyed with your stats is with Intelligence. Lets face it, none of use have an Int in real life above the low 4 and it's probably also the fewest of us that have one less than 3.

I think of myself as an intelligent person (got great grades, excellent results in tests, etc.) but I believe Int 4 is for people considered geniuses of humanity, people that are (at least a little) remembered in history for their deeds, and I'm certainly not one...

 

[Jukashi]

If I recall, there was a specific correlation between IQ and Intelligence rating in First Ed., wasn't there? Something like... Int 1 = IQ 60, Int 2 = IQ 100, Int 3 = IQ 140, Int 4 = IQ 180, Int 5 = IQ 220.


I may be mistaken, though.

 

[wordman]

One way I normally handle social skills in other games is basically to give hints to the players, but still let them figure stuff out and interact. For example, if a player who has a character with a really high score in etiquette  says something blatantly offensive, I say "your character would know that would be offensive for the following reason, do you really want to say that?". If they continue, it's up to them.


Similarly, you can use some social skills similarly to the way you use perception. Someone with a high socialize, for example, might get passed a note that they notice a particular relationship or situation that isn't immediately obvious. Or, maybe, knowing their social background and situation, they get a note like "from what little you know of this guy, you think he might be susceptible to social tactic X." Someone playing a tactical genius might get a note saying "you notice a flaw in their defenses". And so on.


This works a little less well for Exalted, since it has social skills that can flat out dominate people and treats social interaction like combat.

 

[Sherwood]

In the Hero system, there is a skill called 'Deduction'.  It is quite useful in situations like this, where the character is a overwhelming skill-monkey, but the player lacks the same level of knowledge of the Chinese criminal underground, or the proper way of posting an autopsy.  In Exalted, I give my players chances to pick up a hint based on their characters' skills when their own doesn't cover it.  Depeding on the particular situation, it may be a simple Wits roll, or I make them spend a point of temp Willpower.  It varies, but so far, the players in my past games have not complained.

 

[Persell]

One way I normally handle social skills in other games is basically to give hints to the players, but still let them figure stuff out and interact. For example, if a player who has a character with a really high score in etiquette  says something blatantly offensive, I say "your character would know that would be offensive for the following reason, do you really want to say that?". If they continue, it's up to them.

I personally choose a way that empowers the players a bit more.


Say there is a siege. Player says what he wants to do, and then rolls wits and war. If he rolls well it is a good idea, if he rolls poor then it is a bad idea. Nevertheless it directly transports the result into the game without a lot of need of interpretation or figuring out if that was really a clever plan or not, because frankly, that is not possible anyway. Less then a percent of us have any clue of bronze age combat strategies and even less of us would know how they change when you count exalts and essence weaponry into the equation.


Same thing I would do with social situations. Player says something he does not mean offensive, if he rolls well it is offensive, if he rolls poorly on his introduction to the court, then it was.

 

[Lord Kamina]

If I recall, there was a specific correlation between IQ and Intelligence rating in First Ed., wasn't there? Something like... Int 1 = IQ 60, Int 2 = IQ 100, Int 3 = IQ 140, Int 4 = IQ 180, Int 5 = IQ 220.
I may be mistaken, though.

I don't know if you are mistaken or not but something like that should never exist because, I cannot stress this enough, IQ is not a measure of intelligence. IQ measures how much stuff you know compared to the average population your age and thus is variable during life.


If anything, a parallel could be established between IQ and Lore.

 

[Jukashi]

Eh? IQ isn't just a test of what you know. I took an IQ test, it's all about spacial reasoning and maths and word puzzles and stuff.

 

[Ker'ion]

If I recall, there was a specific correlation between IQ and Intelligence rating in First Ed., wasn't there? Something like... Int 1 = IQ 60, Int 2 = IQ 100, Int 3 = IQ 140, Int 4 = IQ 180, Int 5 = IQ 220.
I may be mistaken, though.

I don't know if you are mistaken or not but something like that should never exist because, I cannot stress this enough, IQ is not a measure of intelligence. IQ measures how much stuff you know compared to the average population your age and thus is variable during life.


If anything, a parallel could be established between IQ and Lore.

As the First Edition book says "This Attribute is not a measure of how fast your character thinks, but of how clearly and well he thinks."
And the guage is actually a bit different, though not by a lot.


1E Core Book, page 129:


INT 1 = IQ 80, INT 2 = IQ 100, INT 3 = IQ 130, INT 4 = IQ 160, INT 5 = IQ 180+

 

[Cynis Filthist]

If I recall, there was a specific correlation between IQ and Intelligence rating in First Ed., wasn't there? Something like... Int 1 = IQ 60, Int 2 = IQ 100, Int 3 = IQ 140, Int 4 = IQ 180, Int 5 = IQ 220.
I may be mistaken, though.

I don't know if you are mistaken or not but something like that should never exist because, I cannot stress this enough, IQ is not a measure of intelligence. IQ measures how much stuff you know compared to the average population your age and thus is variable during life.


If anything, a parallel could be established between IQ and Lore.

i could be mistaken, but I thought it was the other way around, IQ is a test of your capacity to understand and learn, *not* what knowledge you have.

 

[skafte]

On a related subject.


What roll do you make your playesr roll to come up with an idea?


Lets say I describe a place: A long valley with a road running down the centre line and 4 smaller roads going out from the centre of the valley, 2 on each side of the large road, they will again connect to the large road just before that leaves the valley. At the point where the smaller roads start in the middle of the valley are 4 statues, one for each road. One is a woman helping a wounded soldier, one is a warrior killing another soldier, one is a man facing a horrible demon, and the last is a man that doesn’t seem to react to a group of people laughing at him. By each statue is an arch over the road – an entrance to that road.


Your lore and or occult doesn't really help you with clues, you have never ever header about something like this.


So what roll would you have your players make to come up with the right idea, when the character may be smart enough, but the player isn't.

 

[magnificentmomo]

Either wits + investigation or int + investigation. I think both would work.


Come to think of it just rolling would be lame, so I think however well they do on their wits/int + investigation would yield a better hint. Because having players just roll through your awesome puzzle you took forever to make would blow, but then again that is kinda like the awesome BBEG fight you think up and he gets lucky roll once shotted.

 

[skafte]

I would never dream of just having them roll to solve the puzzle, first when they have been trying to solve it themself for hours, have been begging me for at least 23 minutes and come with candy and hot tea, would I allow them to roll - if their character have the stats to solve it  :twisted:

 

[magnificentmomo]

BTW what is the context of the puzzle? Either I'm dense or that puzzle is extremely well crafted because I have no inkling of where to go with it without some kind of context.

 

[skafte]

If any of my players for some reason should be lurking around here - don't read this!


The puzzle is that every statue represent a virtue, and you chose a path / quest / fate connected with that virtue by walking through one of the archs instead of taking the larger middle road.

 

[magnificentmomo]

OH! Duh! I should have seen the correlation, this is Exalted, where the heroes are practically ruled by their emotions and motivations.

 

[Lord Kamina]

I would never dream of just having them roll to solve the puzzle, first when they have been trying to solve it themself for hours, have been begging me for at least 23 minutes and come with candy and hot tea, would I allow them to roll - if their character have the stats to solve it  :twisted:

My ST still would not let us solve that with just a roll, he'd probably give us more clues.


Also, do those paths represent the 4 virtues somehow?

 

[skafte]

My ST still would not let us solve that with just a roll' date=' he'd probably give us more clues.[/quote']
Ahh, yes, that is also what I do, just forgot to write it, hehe

Also' date=' do those paths represent the 4 virtues somehow?[/quote']
Yes... I'm pretty sure i wrote that in my second post.


It's a big, and not clear to myself yet, device that will give a person with essence a fate that will let them develop one of the 4 virtue MA styles, using Creation around them as an instructor.

 

[Vanman]

I don't know that I'd let the players roll. I think I would roll the appropriate roll and then give hints based on what the roll indicated. This would also work well if a player botches a roll - that way, he wouldn't know if the information/hint you give him is real or not. If the players roll, they know the results and can act accordingly. If they don't know, however, there's always that element of uncertainty......

 

[Persell]

Whatever you do, just don't let the players work for more than 20 minutes on it, that is surely going to be boring. From a player perspective and from a story perspective.

 

[Moonsilver]

If you want to give the idea that a NPC has high Mental attributes show them coming to mind bending conclusions, simply knowing what they should not know, second guessing that seems supernatural.


Think Sherlock Holmes, it seems like magic but then the master explains it to us. The thing is you don’t want to explain, so don’t. And there lies another good rule, don’t feel you have to explain anything. Well apart from the background

 

[Persell]

It works well when an exceptional/deficient stat is the result of a direct choice by the player - "I WANT to play a dunce/genius or a socially ungraceful/elegant character".  Other times, stats are allocated for either mechanical or neglectful reasons - "I don't WANT to be the face of the party, but I want this power that requires high charisma", or "I don't WANT to be a moron but I don't have the extra points to spend in mental traits and still be good at the things I feel are important for my character."


Grunting and slobbering is all fine and good if you want to present your character in that manner.  For a lot of players though, they don't want to come across as socially repugnant ignorami, they just don't feel the can benefit from purchasing stats for those things that they can present as a player.  Other times, a player will decide that they want to be something beyond what they can easily portrait, and so they purchase the points on their sheet and use them to a mechanical advantage.  If it comes down to a point where a roll is required, the savante players will fall by the wayside and the statted characters will shine - which is how it should be.  But if a game interaction doesn't warrant a roll, it doesn't really matter what's on the character sheet and it's all about the players behaving the way that they want and having fun doing it.  Your players will let you know what's important to them as they play - the challenge is exorcising the notion that it's up to you to tell them what's important based on the stats listed on a piece of paper.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Yes... I'm pretty sure i wrote that in my second post.


It's a big, and not clear to myself yet, device that will give a person with essence a fate that will let them develop one of the 4 virtue MA styles, using Creation around them as an instructor.

For some reason I missed that post.


Anyway, it looks like a pretty cool puzzle.