Perfect Defenses: Baid-Aid on a mechanical problem?

Kyeudo

One Thousand Club
Some thoughts I've had on the effect of Perfect Defenses on the game of Exalted:


I've been spending alot of time thinking about the basic mechanics of Exalted (you've probably noticed :roll:) and I've come to think that perhaps the existance of Perfect Defenses are to blame for a good deal of the mechanical bugs that exist in the game as it stands. The thing that got me pointed in this direction was the Ink Monkeys. They have devoted so much effort into new Charms that essentially do at least one of two things: Make existing Charms not count as Charm activations or make existing Charms essentially free. My mostly irrational hatred of the Ink Monkeys delayed the realization somewhat, but I eventually asked myself "Why?"


The only answer I could come up with is: Because they are trying to encourage a play style that is at odds with the natural inclinations created by the rules. The play style they want to push? They want people to be able to throw a ton of Essence into big, flashy attacks and be able to get away with it. That's an idea I can get behind. In a way, that's what Exalted is about - the freedom to go as big as you want.


So, why do they focus on these two solutions? Why free Charm activations and free Charm costs? I can only say because of the existance of Perfect Defenses.


Now, don't get me wrong. Perfect Defenses are an essential part of the setting and so must remain in the rules system. Perfect Defenses answer the question "How did the Exalted stop the Primordials from just killing them outright?" I would posit that taking Perfect Defenses from Exalted would strip away part of the something that makes Exalted the game it is.


Still, the current niche occupied by Perfect Defenses forces the rest of gameplay to conform around them. Not that I'm saying something that we don't already know, but Perfect Defenses have turned motes into your HP guage and your Charm Activation into the most precious resource at your disposal. This of course, leads to the same type of question: "Why is that?"


Well, I see a few reasons, but the most critical reason I see is the origins of the rules system. Exalted was initially an experimental venture by White Wolf. It wasn't necessarily going to sell well, so devoting a huge amount of effort to making a customized rule set just for this new game would have been a stupid move. So, instead they took their existing system, added the fluff and stylistic elements they needed to make the fluff work, drew some cool art, and did enough playtesting that no obvious bugs were showing up and off to the printer the game went.


Why I call this the main reason for the problem is because the system they used as their base was the original Storyteller system, which may as well have been built to punish players from resolving things with combat. Everything I've heard about the original World of Darkness amounts to "Unless you are a Werewolf, even a combat-specced character doesn't know if he'd come out of the next fight alive." Combat was made to be short, risky, and brutal. This is great for games about intrigue and character development. Not so great for a game where a major theme is problem-solving by punching people in the face.


During playtesting, this underlying uncertainty that existed in combat was probably masked by the existance of the Perfect Defense. Because every character essentially has a "No, I don't get hit" button, it doesn't matter how brutal the combat system is. As long as a character has Essence and is aware of the attack, he will not die. And so, things continued onward. The Storyteller system got an update to its combat mechanics, namely the addition of static defenses and a streamlining of turn structure, and so we got Second Edition. However, the additions and streamlining never really addressed the underlying uncertainty because that uncertainty is considered a good thing in the World of Darkness, where most of the playtesting probably went on.


So, Perfect Defenses are essentially hiding the real problems with the combat system. They are potent enough to make up for most of the design problems, but these design problems mean that using a perfect constantly is a necessity against any opponent of reasonable threat level.


Now that I'm through telling you what you probably already know, how do we fix it? Well, we have to attack those underlying uncertainties in an effort to make using a Perfect Defense a less necessary and possibly even a less desirable choice.


The first uncertainty is the uncertainty of survival. As things stand, one hit in Exalted can kill you outright. Most artifact weapons are damaging enough and soak is poor enough that a single hit can kill outright. Even if it doesn't kill you, it still will inflict wound penalties that make further hits more certain and future attacks less likely to succeed, begining a slow spiral into the death of your character. Therefore, you cannot let an attack hit.


The second uncertainty is the uncertainty of a sufficient defense. Suppose we have two mortals, Alice and Bob, duking it out to see who's boss. Alice and Bob on different ticks. If Alice attacks, she compromises her defense. The more attacks she makes, the larger the compromise in her defenses. Because of the supremacy of defense, each attack is more likely to fail than succeed. Unless Alice gets lucky, Bob will get to attack and now Alice's guard is weakened. If Alice was too aggressive, she essentially hands Bob free hits and dies. However, there's not much fun in using Guard actions incessantly and an offense of some kind is necessary to win any fight, so staying on the defensive will not win you a fight. So, Alice is stuck either making single attacks or maybe a small flurry and praying that her opponent doesn't get lucky or launching large flurries and hoping to kill her opponent fast. In the end, using the best offense availible to her is stupid as it denies her any hope of maintaining a sufficient defense.


If you add Charms in, the problem gets more complex, but remains there, just in a sligtly different form. Let us assume, for the moment, that both attack pools and DVs are both equally boostable. Now, we have two young Exalts, Alice and Bob, fighting it out for whatever reason. Alice is currently acting before Bob. Both Alice and Bob decide to use their Charm for the action to enhance their attacks. Alice uses Hungry Tiger Technique and Bob chooses to use the Second Melee Excellency. When Alice attacks, Bob knows she won't be rolling more dice than he has in his defense pool, so he has options. He can either trust his DVs or he can blow a few motes on using the Excellency to buff his DV. Either way, Alice needs a fairly lucky shot (a really lucky shot if he used the Excellency) for her tactic to yield any fruit. Meanwhile, she has lowered her DV and removed almost all of her options to add to her defense. Now Bob's attack, even without the Excellency, has a very solid chance of hitting. With the Excellency, it's almost guaranteed. By using a purely offensive Charm, Alice has denied herself any hope of maintaining a sufficient defense (If Alice had used the Second Melee Excellency to boost her attack, we'd be right back to the situation in the preceding paragraph: two characters of equal offensive and defensive potential just waiting for a lucky break or a blunder to capitalize on). This is why that one Charm activation is a critical resource.


The final uncertainty is the problem of resource management. While every game system is going to have this to some extent, each character in Exalted has only X motes at any given time. If you get in combat with another character, the winner of the conflict is the person able to maintain that sufficient defense the longest and the person most able to maintain that sufficient defense is the one with the most resources. However, most characters cannot determine the size of the other character's mote pool, so they can't be entirely certain that they are the ones currently ahead in motes. Each mote diverted away from maintaining a defense might just be the mote that puts you behind the other character and may mean that you are the one to find yourself defenseless first.


Added together, these issues mean that defense is the Alpha and Omega of combat. He who defends best the longest wins, and the best defense is a Perfect Defense.


This is why the Ink Monkeys spend so much time on what is essentially fancy ways to get motes. Motes earmarked for offensive Charms only can't be used on that Perfect Defense anyway, so why not spend them to boost your attack? Charms that don't use up your Charm activation for the round won't leave you defenseless, so why not add a little extra kick to your next attack? This brings back the flashy, over-the-top action that full-on paranoia Perfect Spamming strips from the game.


Such approaches, however, aren't addressing the real issues that lie at the heart of the system. As someone pointed out to me, the Ink Monkeys haven't been given the go-ahead to completely rewrite the system, so they do what they can. However, I'm a guy who likes to homebrew with next to no social life. I've got the time and inclination to at least try and homebrew and houserule a fix to the real center of the problem.


So, I have a few ideas on where to start. In no particularly significant order, here they are:


Make Exalts be able to take a hit and keep on going. If you had a guarantee that a hit wouldn't be the end of the world, you would be more inclined to settle for a defense that was less than perfect. Take D&D for an example. D&D characters do not spend most of their time in combat fighting defensively or running away from threats, because they either have enough hit points (fighters) or enough defenses (wizard) that you are more or less guaranteed to survive until next round. So, you see D&D characters charging into the middle of monsters, taking risks, and using character resources (spell slots, manuvers, etc) on the offense instead of on defense. This doesn't mean they don't take appropriate cautions like buffing, five-foot stepping out of threatened squares, and so on, just that they can put themselves in a position where they might get hurt without having a spare character sheet in their backpacks. To allow Exalts to take a hit, Health Levels and Soak have to start pulling their weight.


Add risky but rewarding defensive options to the Charm sets. Once a single hit is not the end of a fight, having options that defend the character solidly without being perfect will become useful. If those options are less expensive than a Perfect Defense, successfully using one of them instead will put the character ahead in the mote attrition game.


Perhaps loosen up the restrictions on Charm actions. If instead of one Charm per DV refresh, perhaps make it one Charm per dice action. That way, using a Charm to boost your attack doesn't leave you defenseless. You could, for example, use Hungry Tiger Technique to supplement one attack in your flurry, buy a few dice for your other attacks with the First Melee Excellency, and then when you are attacked you could respond with Shadow Over Water or Solar Counterattack. This would still leave Combos useful, as you couldn't use both Hungry Tiger Technique and the First Melee Excellency at once or Shadow Over Water and Solar Counterattack against the same attack.


The last idea I have is to add some of the Ink Monkeys better Overdrive (ug, I hate that keyword) Charms to every Charm set. Having a set of motes that are only for throwing out awesome attack Charms would most definately encourage the use of Charms on the offensive.


So, that's what I've thought about the system. I like picking other peoples' brains, so what do you guys think? Do my suggestions actually address the problems? Any problems you forsee with my solutions? Any solutions you see that I missed?


TL DR version: Perfect Defenses hide mechanical problems by being so awesome. I've got some ideas on how to fix them. What do you think?
 
Okay, I'll agree that Soak and HLs need to pull their weight, and it can start in one of two ways: Make HLs, soak (read: Armor), and HL and soak charms more awesome, or nerf weaponry. I want to lean towards the former, because a lot of Artifact 5 stuff seems to be largely made out of tissue paper as it stands, and quite frankly, I don't like Nerfing in Exalted, which, as you said, is (or rather should be) all about being able to go as big as you wanna.


More Overdrive Charms would be nifty, especially in an ability like Integrity, Larceny, or Investigation. That alone gives people reason to go "Wait, where did he pull those motes from?"


I'm reminded of a pair of Charms for Ink Monkeys that was actually a mean as hell Dodge suite that was less-than-perfect: The first allowed you to take your opponent's Essence score and essentially add it to your DV calculations, the other gave you motes for free when you dodged and opponent's attack without perfecting. It's a risky combination to use, but when it works, it works beautifully.


THe problem with soak, though, is dealing with Piercing. Don't get me wrong, some weapons should have Piercing, and in fact, it's one of the few ways to not Essence Ping with a bow on anything with armor, but the fact that everyone and their mother picks it up means that natural soak has to carry a big load. Get more natural soak into the mix, and things become a lot less deadly.


The problem with that, though, is that there is really only one way, so far, to improve natural soak. Stamina. It's not really ideal.
 
never really had that problem in the OWoD games, id say exalted is missing something like the ability fortitude


A character's rating in fortitude adds to his/her stamina for the purposes of soaking normal damage (bashing and lethal). A character with this ability may also use his/her dots in Fortitude to soak aggravated damage


something like that in exalted would go a long way to making it so a perfect defense isnt so much required as it can be a play style and part of the character concept instead, also most of the OWoD games have powers a lot like that except for Demon: the Fallen, they are the most fragile ones in the game line
 
Well, you could easily make Resistance the Fortitude Ability. It's that simple.


Another problem that might show up is that mote-tap happens even faster if you can do an activation every dice action.
 
Fabricati said:
The problem with that, though, is that there is really only one way, so far, to improve natural soak. Stamina. It's not really ideal.
Hmm, so logically, the test plan might be to simply set natural soak to stamina x3 for bashing, and stamina x2 for lethal and see what happens in a game with that rule running. It will let stamina monkeys get some huge natural soak but if you're exalted and you choose to invest heavily in stamina, being tough enough to make a terminator cry should be in the books anyway. Keep soak as it is for nonheroic mortals so that exalts can still cut down a mortal army like ripe wheat.


I suspect bonus health levels are in order too but that's for a second attempt.


Hmm, anybody care to write up a couple of characters and test this?
 
Fabricati said:
The problem with that' date=' though, is that there is really only one way, so far, to improve natural soak. Stamina. It's not really ideal.[/quote']
Hmm, so logically, the test plan might be to simply set natural soak to stamina x3 for bashing, and stamina x2 for lethal and see what happens in a game with that rule running. It will let stamina monkeys get some huge natural soak but if you're exalted and you choose to invest heavily in stamina, being tough enough to make a terminator cry should be in the books anyway. Keep soak as it is for nonheroic mortals so that exalts can still cut down a mortal army like ripe wheat.


I suspect bonus health levels are in order too but that's for a second attempt.


Hmm, anybody care to write up a couple of characters and test this?
i think im going to swipe this as a house rule, works very well
 
Just to throw out an idea...


What if you houserule Ox Body (all versions for all Exalt types) to gain the following power:


"Whenever a character with this charm suffers levels of damage, she may spend one mote to reduce the number of levels of damage taken by an amount equal to the number of times she has purchased this charm. The use of this power is reflexive, does not count as charm activation, and may be used even by unconscious characters. This power affects Bashing, Lethal, and Aggravated damage equally."


and also...


Add a cost of 1wp to all charms which carry a Flaw of Invulnerability.


It might not be perfect, but most characters have at least one Ox Body, and making perfection actually cost something might make calculated imperfection a more appealing tactic. The character with a few Ox Bodys could then wade into large groups of lesser foes without being heavily invested in soak charms, while the 5 Resistance brute in superheavy plate can shrug off that pesky minimum damage from the Sidereal death squad. The concept of charm "spamming" frankly turns my stomach, and I count myself fortunate to have never encountered these kinds of players, but making the game breaking perfect defense charms costly to use makes the most sense to me in terms of discouraging the tactic.


This combined with the errata to make Infinite Rate = Rate 5 in all instances should balance to reduce the overpowered-ness of "ping-spamming", while reducing the attractiveness of hiding behind a wall of cheap perfects.
 
I don't actually like that OBT fix, it takes a lot away from Twilights and would probably make combat not lethal enough, so that you can sit there for five hours and not do any HLs of damage if someone is Resistance 5. I mean, seriously, that's ridiculously powerful.


And the 1WP addition to Perfects makes combat even MORE deadly, not less.
 
Stamina should do more then add to soak, but also figure into you Health Levels, and I think that elder Exalts should get tougher as they age so I scrapped the normal 7 HLs and replaced them with this formula:


Permanent Essence = 0 HL


Stamina = -1 HL (capped by Essence)


Resistance = -2 HL (capped by Essence)


1 = -4 HL


That gives mortals 3 HLs (normal mook rating) since they only have 1 essence, and a Mortal Hero will have 7 HL, and Exalts will have even more as their Essence, Stamina, and Resistance increase. Ox Body works the same.


Add another few -2 HLs for size and some -1 HLs for unusual material like since stone skin and you should be set.


I also halved the damage of artifact weapons like the Goremaul and Grimcleaver since it seems a basic flaw the book made was to double damage and convert it to lethal compared to the mundane versions of these weapons, but the daiklaves are still the same damage as their mundane counterparts.
 
Fabricati said:
I don't actually like that OBT fix, it takes a lot away from Twilights and would probably make combat not lethal enough, so that you can sit there for five hours and not do any HLs of damage if someone is Resistance 5. I mean, seriously, that's ridiculously powerful.
And the 1WP addition to Perfects makes combat even MORE deadly, not less.
Yeah, I'm not really attached to the idea myself.


I actually have no problem with the risk level of Exalted combat. What seems silly to me is the idea that players want to hide behind a single overpowered charm throughout the entire course of a battle. I guess this leads to trying to wear down each other's motes with weak attacks because you know they will only defend perfectly. So the first character to run out of motes loses to ping damage a few ticks later. That is LAME, and the crux of the whole problem.


Combat should be risky. Characters should be able to die. One overwhelming charm that becomes the only viable way to defend because it is so cheap and so much better than anything else...That might make fights more survivable, but it also makes for boring fights. If there were no cheap perfects, characters would have to end the fight as quickly as possible to limit their own risk. A good offense then becomes the best defense.
 
But then combat degenerates into rocket tag, and your fancy Dawn Caste dies in the first session to a heroic mortal with a tetsubo who beat you on the Join Battle roll.
 
Teln said:
But then combat degenerates into rocket tag, and your fancy Dawn Caste dies in the first session to a heroic mortal with a tetsubo who beat you on the Join Battle roll.
how so?


The fancy Dawn caste can use an excellency to defend, and then again to attack on his action. If he has Infinite Ability Mastery, he can do this every action and for very little Essence. With Ability Essence Flow, he can do it at greater mote cost, but leave his charm activation open to use an offensive charm or combo. If he's worth his salt, he has armor and/or some Resistance charms, and so should be soaking most of the damage each time he does get hit. Maybe the Dawn will take a few HL from Overwhelming damage, but 4 dice rolling well only puts you down to -1 in wound penalties. If the mortal has 5s in Attribute and Ability, 3 specialty, and a tetsubo, he can roll 12 dice to hit at best. The Dawn can double that with similar stats and a little effort. Bottom line is: If your Dawn feels that he needs perfect defenses to protect himself from some mortal with a big stick, he doesn't deserve his caste mark.


If the complaint is that characters would have to invest heavily in combat charms to survive against other Exalts who have made those investments, where is the problem? Any Solar with melee can become totally immune to other Exalts just by taking Heavenly Guardian as it currently stands. That's ridiculous. Same goes for dodge and Seven Shadow Evasion. I do not disagree with the existence of these charms, only the ease with which they can be learned and used. If you didn't have a winning card in every hand, you might have to actually play the game intelligently and creatively, and that's the point, isn't it?
 
But making perfect defenses less desirable DIRECTLY doesn't solve the actual problem as presented, it just makes perfect defenses less desirable.


Besides, in first edition, most of the Solar PDs had a willpower surcharge, and people didn't like how it worked out then.


The idea is to make other things sweeter, I think, and possibly to make combat itself less deadly, yet not less deadly so much as to make combat a 50-turn boring slogfest. Jeopardy defenses and offenses take some of the edge off, but I think some of it is in the nuts and bolts.
 
Virjigorm said:
Teln said:
But then combat degenerates into rocket tag, and your fancy Dawn Caste dies in the first session to a heroic mortal with a tetsubo who beat you on the Join Battle roll.
how so?
Simple: The dice decide they hate you.


To expand on this, a mortal with Dex5/Melee5 (+3 clubs) and a tetsubo is rolling 12 dice after the accuracy penalty. Throw in an additional stunt die, and we're back at 13. Mr. Mortal rolls this: (1,5,6,7,4,9,10,10,10,8,9,2,6, ten successes). Unlikely? Gods yes, but perfectly possible.


Since your Dawn Caste is just starting, remember, odds are she doesn't have Infinite Ability Mastery or Ability Essence Flow yet (Seriously, that's a lot of bonus points), and there's a very good chance ten successes gets past her DV (For the sake of my calculations, let's say Dodge, and at 7, very good for a starting character). But wait, there's Excellencies! First Dodge Excellency, activate! How many motes do you want to spend? Let's say 5, buying 5 dice.(Too late to change it now, she already "activated" it back at step 2, and damage is rolled on step 3) Roll results: (5,8,7,6,2, two successes, about average for 5 dice). Final Dodge DV: 9. Not good enough.


So, calculate raw damage! A tetsubo's base damage is 12, plus the heroic mortal's Strength, which I'll assume is 5, (not inconceivable, since the Storyteller's already minmaxed his Dex+Melee pool), plus one leftover success from the attack roll makes for 17 damage dice, and one success. With an orichalcum reinforced breastplate, the Dawn has a bashing soak of 11, which is reduced to 6 (rounding up) by the tetsubo's Piercing tag. So, that's the automatic success taken care of, along with 5 dice, for a final damage roll of 11 dice (average damage 5.5 levels and that's if the mortal doesn't get lucky again, hope you have an Ox-Body!). So you're not quite dead, but damn close.


TL;DR: All it takes is one bad roll for you to become a Glorious Solar Bloodstain.
 
Here's my current plan of attack on the matter:

  • Rework the soak and hardness values of armor
  • Revise the cost of artifact armor to be appropriate for its new soak and hardness
  • Get rid of the Piercing tag, replacing it with Overwhelming
  • Change ping damage to (Attacker's Essence - Defender's Essence)
  • Increase the cost of perfect defenses relative to normal defenses
  • Reexamine the Four Flaws of Invulnerability
  • Free up Charm activations for offensive use
  • Enhance Ox-Body Technique to make it desirable to take
  • Add offensive mote generators to the Charm sets of every Exalt
  • Add a Solar/Abyssal Charm for ignoring wound penalties
  • Limit Extra Action Charms to only the attacks allowed by the weapon's Rate.
  • Add good non-perfect defenses.
  • Clarify "action" as a game turn, probably by reintroducing "turn" or "round".


I'm currently writing a C# widget to help me with item #1. Why crunch tons of numbers by hand when I can have the computer do it for me?
 
Why not get rid of wound penalties entirely?


Another approach would be rewrite the perfect defense charms to make them harder to use the more you use them. Perhaps have them so you can use a number of perfects equal to your permanent essence per day at normal cost, then each use afterwards cost extra motes of willpower?
 
uteck said:
Why not get rid of wound penalties entirely?
Because then I may as well start using hit points. Exalted has one of the few elegantly implemented systems for imposing penalties based on how many of your entrails are currently your extrails and I like keeping it there.

Another approach would be rewrite the perfect defense charms to make them harder to use the more you use them. Perhaps have them so you can use a number of perfects equal to your permanent essence per day at normal cost, then each use afterwards cost extra motes of willpower?
This starts encroaching upon one of the central premises of the setting: the only things that are absolutely required to kill a Primordial is a perfect defense, Ghost-Eating Technique, and enough tenacity to last a thousand mortal lifetimes.
 
Kyeudo said:
Another approach would be rewrite the perfect defense charms to make them harder to use the more you use them. Perhaps have them so you can use a number of perfects equal to your permanent essence per day at normal cost, then each use afterwards cost extra motes of willpower?
This starts encroaching upon one of the central premises of the setting: that is absolutely required to kill a Primordial is a perfect defense, Ghost-Eating Technique, and enough tenacity to last a thousand mortal lifetimes.
...


Despite the patently ridiculous flavor text of that Charm, it's pretty explicitly stated in the histories that each of the Primordials required multiple insanely epic quests just to FIND the ways to defeat them, let alone actually doing the deed? The central premises of Exalted is that you don't get anything done by being boring. And I can't think of a better adjective than "boring" to describe sitting around spamming a PD/GET combo. Perhaps the adverb "mind-numbingly" should be added, but still.
 
Brickwall said:
Kyeudo said:
Despite the patently ridiculous flavor text of that Charm, it's pretty explicitly stated in the histories that each of the Primordials required multiple insanely epic quests just to FIND the ways to defeat them, let alone actually doing the deed? The central premises of Exalted is that you don't get anything done by being boring. And I can't think of a better adjective than "boring" to describe sitting around spamming a PD/GET combo. Perhaps the adverb "mind-numbingly" should be added, but still.
I meant that whatever epic quest was required to kill a Primordial, it could be accomplished by someone with a perfect defense, Ghost-Eating Technique, and enough courage and conviction to see it through to the end. I didn't mean that the way to kill Malfeas is to wail on his walls with Ghost-Eating Technique while defending against his layers trying to crush you with Adamant Skin Technique. How would that ever look cool?


My point was that when you are trying to take down something transcedantly more powerful than yourself, you should be spamming a perfect defense against their attacks or you will be paste. If the Ebon Dragon is trying to swallow you whole, he's going to have basic dice pools greater than your Excellency boosted DV can ever hope to match. Adding an ever increasing cost to perfect defenses would make even daring to go toe-to-toe with a Primordial the ultimate in foolishness.
 
Kyeudo said:
My point was that when you are trying to take down something transcendently more powerful than yourself, you should be spamming a perfect defense against their attacks or you will be paste. If the Ebon Dragon is trying to swallow you whole, he's going to have basic dice pools greater than your Excellency boosted DV can ever hope to match. Adding an ever increasing cost to perfect defenses would make even daring to go toe-to-toe with a Primordial the ultimate in foolishness.
That's what preparation and teamwork are for! You think the Twilights and Nights were useless against the Primordials? Sorcery wasn't even around for the Twilights! No, they studied weak points, they made artifacts, they engaged roundabout. Without the Twilights and Nights supporting the Dawns and Zeniths, the fight would NOT have been a winning one, and that's entirely intentional (and let's not even get started on the importance of the roles of Eclipses and Sidereals). Fights are supposed to be about more than Perfect Defenses, so if something other than a PD is needed to accomplish great things, I'd say that's a plus, not a minus.
 
Brickwall said:
That's what preparation and teamwork are for! You think the Twilights and Nights were useless against the Primordials? Sorcery wasn't even around for the Twilights! No, they studied weak points, they made artifacts, they engaged roundabout. Without the Twilights and Nights supporting the Dawns and Zeniths, the fight would NOT have been a winning one, and that's entirely intentional (and let's not even get started on the importance of the roles of Eclipses and Sidereals). Fights are supposed to be about more than Perfect Defenses, so if something other than a PD is needed to accomplish great things, I'd say that's a plus, not a minus.
I never claimed the Twilight, Night, or Eclipse Castes were useless, but without the Dawn and Zeniths standing there on the front lines trading blows with the likes of Ligier, there would have been no time to find weak points or make artifacts. Perfect Defenses need to stay consistantly viable for the setting to make sense as, strangely enough, Perfect Defenses are the greatest weapons in the arsenal of the Exalted. I just want to add some reasons to not spam perfects against an opponent of equal skill, not gut them entirely.
 
uteck said:
If you can spam a PD, would you use anything less?
Under the current system? No. But I'm not talking about the current system. I'm talking about a potential system.


Mote attrition is a good reason, I think, to not use a perfect defense, provided that a sufficient non-perfect alternative exists. If the way to win against an evenly matched opponent is to run him out of motes first, then combat should be about seeing who can force the other to use the more expensive Charm. If a one or two mote Charm would need at least 4 motes and a better than average roll from your evenly matched opponent to take a hit, you'll feel more secure skipping the four or five mote perfect.
 
Right now the number of perfects they can use is limited by their motes, and given the low cost and ease of regaining motes in combat it can be a long time before they have to stop.


But if you place a smaller limiter on them, they do not meet your level of effectiveness for the Primordial War. I think your expectations on how they fought the war is a bit off, but going along with the concept of it being a brutal slug fest then how do you make combat after the war challenging without having perfects be used all the time?


1. You could change the way perfects work to only be useful against Creatures of Darkness.


Does not hinder them during the war, but Abyssal and Infernal charms break this.


2. Prevent stunting from regaining motes when a perfect is used during that DV refresh.


Forces you to not relay on the perfect all the time, but you can still use it as long as you have motes.


I think option 2 might suite your needs.
 
Fabricati said:
The problem with that' date=' though, is that there is really only one way, so far, to improve natural soak. Stamina. It's not really ideal.[/quote']
Hmm, so logically, the test plan might be to simply set natural soak to stamina x3 for bashing, and stamina x2 for lethal and see what happens in a game with that rule running. It will let stamina monkeys get some huge natural soak but if you're exalted and you choose to invest heavily in stamina, being tough enough to make a terminator cry should be in the books anyway. Keep soak as it is for nonheroic mortals so that exalts can still cut down a mortal army like ripe wheat.


I suspect bonus health levels are in order too but that's for a second attempt.


Hmm, anybody care to write up a couple of characters and test this?
I'm liking the way this looks, it would be a lot harder to kill someone in one hit with this kinda house rule and fighting could still be dangerous if you and your enemies are throwing your biggest hits
 

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