Occult vs. other Abilities

[Jukashi]

Occult is the Ability that shows how much you know about the supernatural and how to deal with it. But, in a world as blatantly magical as Exalted, wouldn't some of that knowledge be part of other Abilities as well, in a specialized way? Take Sail, for example; in Creation's seas, any professional sailor would know the right sacrifices to storm mothers without having any dots in Occult, just the same way that in our world, a sailor would know about meteorology without being a meteorologist themselves.


Basic question, therefore, is; how much would you allow players to use Abilities other than Occult to justify having knowledge of the supernatural?

 

[Galen]

Arguably, that's what specialties are for.

 

[Flagg]

I'd also say, that's what stunts are for.


But if I were to actually over-analyze things, I'd ask why knowledge of magic and spirits is its own Ability, when Lore covers knowledge of everything else? It seems like an artificial distinction.

 

[skafte]

I have a very loose relationship to single abilities and attributes. If a player can come up with a good reason why they should roll Appearance + Integrity, instead of my suggested Dexterity + Medicine, I'll allow it.

 

[wordman]

I'd ask why knowledge of magic and spirits is its own Ability, when Lore covers knowledge of everything else? It seems like an artificial distinction.

I play it that Lore is for knowing about things, including magic, while Occult is for using magic. The rules don't bear this out, naturally, since some tests use Lore in active ways (such as "operate artifacts" rolls), but it's a distinction that helps my game.

 

[cyl]

Well, for me this is not a problem, I tend to consider the "knowledge abilities" (Lore/Occult) to be localised at lower ratings.


In the example of the sailor:


- occult 0, wouldn't know an elemental from a storm mother (roll needed),


- occult 1 could make the difference without a roll and maybe know the proper ritual (roll needed),


- occult 2 know the difference between the two and know the proper rituals, and would probably know about some other gods not from his homeland (roll needed)


etc...

 

[Arthur]

I would say that magical knowledge in the purview of any ability can be accesses by testing that ability, but with an increased difficulty.

 

[Brickwall]

To repeat what most other people have said in this topic, Occult is knowledge of magic, in all forms, theory, and practices. Certain abilities at advanced levels will also cover some knowledge of magic applied to the ability. To use your sailing comparison earlier, it's a lot more basic knowledge to rig a ship and sail with the wind than it is to predict the weather and adjust for it. And as a further extension, any meteorological knowledge you get from sailing experience will apply less, if at all, to weather not common to the sea, and plenty other sciences.


In short, at higher levels, Abilities can cover some magical knowledge. But Occult gives an extremely broad range and is helpful for magic at lower levels. Additionally, having the Ability is somewhat necessary for actually performing any rituals.

 

[Flagg]

Another way of approaching things would be to assume that almost EVERYONE in Creation has at least one dot of Occult, since magic and spirits are so ubiquitous.

 

[Brickwall]

Of course, there is the fact that mortals only have 15 ability dots and no BP, and they have to invest in a couple Crafts, plus a lot of other utilitarian skills. Seriously, I play Exalts who don't have enough dots left over for occult. It takes time to learn and retain, time that farmers don't have. That's why there's some wiseguy appointed to know that stuff.

 

[cyl]

Well most of them should, but in some exceptions, outcastes (people who were raised without a basic education- slaves, street rats... orphans...) can't really know these things.


If you look at the Antagonists section of the corebook, Reg troups/rebels (third class of extras) have Occult 1, while the previous lower classes (slave/farmers, outlaws/Green troups) don't.


Considering farmers are most of the time subjects of a prayer racket by the gods or elementals, they should indeed have Occult 1.

 

[Brickwall]

Well most of them should, but in some exceptions, outcastes (people who were raised without a basic education- slaves, street rats... orphans...) can't really know these things.
If you look at the Antagonists section of the corebook, Reg troups/rebels (third class of extras) have Occult 1, while the previous lower classes (slave/farmers, outlaws/Green troups) don't.


Considering farmers are most of the time subjects of a prayer racket by the gods or elementals, they should indeed have Occult 1.

They're guidelines. Not every farming village in Creation, and especially not ones on the Blessed Isle, is bullied around by gods. Slaves and random townspeople also are often free from that particular obligation. If you go to a town where all the farmers are indeed threatened with firey rape if they don't pray, yes, that village will have people with Occult. But in general, supernatural encounters that mortals can learn from or affect in any way are rare enough that only a minority of most communities will really get any magical education.


Besides, often such mortals have said wiseguy to lead them in their rituals, and really don't know what they're doing. It's not really an unimagineable situation for a village to lose their priest and suddenly suffer an angry god.

 

[cyl]

The spirits are such a plague for mortals since no one keeps them on a short leash...

 

[Brickwall]

The spirits are such a plague for mortals since no one keeps them on a short leash...

In the Blessed Isle and a few satrapies, there are a ton of monks around who will kick the ass of any god who gets even a little out of line. The gods have to avoid interfering with the agendas of Exalts and other gods. Not every god is cruel and selfish. You take all those factors, and there's an extremely large amount of mortals who really don't have to deal with spirits, undead, or whatever all that often. And even the ones that do are often helpless to deal with it. The average citizen of Whitewall will know quite little about the Fae, save how to identify one, and that's not Occult-level knowledge. Pretty much anyone with half an education knows what they look like. There's no justification to give them ability points for such basic knowledge, since even a point in Occult generally means they're capable of easily learning basic thaumaturgy, and you can't tell me that it makes sense for everyone and their grandma to be able to use astrology or alarm wards. Magic is common, but it's esoteric enough to be called "Occult". And, in case someone out there reading this doesn't know what "Occult" means besides "magic", "occult" refers to things which are hidden, and not commonly known. The definition of the Ability means that most people don't know it. Seriously.


And that's why not everyone in Creation is a freaking wizard. Because it's stupid. The end.

 

[Skari-dono]

One thing about the Fae though is that they rarely look alike. In fact, they can pretty much look like anything. So it's not really possible to simply assume that everyone in Whitewall can recognise them on sight. They could probably assume that someone is a Fae, but is it not possible that they are confusing them with someone with Wyld mutations? Or perhaps even something else entirely?


And I don't think we are talking about the definition of the word Occult but rather what the Ability is meant to represent in the Exalted system. Reading the bit about it in the book, it says that Occult represents Magic, the Fair Folk, ghosts, gods, and elementals. I'd throw in anything that has to do with knowledge of Essence as well for good measures. Occult also represents how to deal with these things. This, I believe, we all know.


Lore is the studious knowledge. It involves geography, history, mathematics and.. stuff. So what is the difference you say? Lore covers the wordly knowledge while Occult covers the otherwordly knowledge, the things that manipulates or does not belong in the natural world.


So lets take Wood, a Raksha, as an example. So lets say this Wood made some stirr in Creation some hundred years ago. So say the circle's Twilight needs some information about the guy. Lore would help him find information about Wood as a personal entity (if we could use such choice of words) and what the heck he did back in the day. Occult however would give the Twilight information about Wood as a Raksha and what he is capable of.


Now lets take another Twilight as an example, this one who cast a powerful spell back in the day. Lore would give you information about what happened: the Twilight used a powerful spell that did this or that. Lore would cover the event, but Occult would cover the actual effects of the spell, such as what circle it is, how to perform it and so on. The spell might make changes to the landscape and Occult would let you know that, but Lore could let you know how that effects the natural wildlife (if that could ever become important).


I'd say that you need Occult to do rituals of any kind. Some sailors might know a ritual or two for the ocean gods, but I doubt most do, but they'd still need Occult. That's my two cents. Overly long post for underly small point.

 

[talos42]

I think you also have to take into consideration geographical location the person in question comes from for how much occult knowledge some one has for any given ability. Let’s go back to our example sailor. Say he works a river boat in the east. I would give him less occult knowledge than someone with the same number of dots in sail that grew up in The West. Do to the strong maritime culture of the west.


On a side note I give people from the south more general but less accurate innate knowledge do to their superstitious nature.

 

[magnificentmomo]

A little off topic, but I feel it applies because it involves defining/strengthening the occult ability: gaining an


art of thaumaturgy per every occult dot above 1.


This would apply mainly to exalts, because I am not sure of the extent of the reprocotions(speeling) if this is applied to heroic mortals.


I also feel that this helps buffer the horrendous cost of thaumaturgy.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I'm still tinkering with the re-working of Occult and Lore in terms of Enlightenment. I really want to back the whole Perfected Lotus away from Martial Arts, and instead make Enlightenment linked to these Abilities instead. It means re-working a bit of the system, and requiring actual study and advancement in these areas, as opposed to just learning to kick ass--and instead opening up a whole list of Charms attached to other Abilities as well to Heroic Mortals and anyone else who is walking that Path.


Still tinkering with it though, and the job is sucking a lot of time away from it...

 

[Arthur]

I like the idea. I like the fact that Martial Arts is not linked to the Exalted. Instead, it is a kind of "universal pseudo-magic" that can be achieved through hard training. I got the impression that what you suggest would make what is now Martial Arts even more universal and accessible to non-magic beings.


However, the amount of rework you are aiming for is likely to cause unbalanced mechanics. I think that, if you do develop that, it'll need lots of playtesting to function properly.

 

[Haku1]

Hmmm... why not have the 'hero' styles be the native "martial arts" ability charms... while the Lotus / true martial arts with their charm trees as something else. Kind of like Brawl and Martial Arts in 1e?

 

[Jakk Bey]

I'm pretty much scaling things.


Terrestrial Enlightenment Charms are a bit less powerful than DB Charms--and very much focused on the Ability in question. Doing things better because you accept your place in the Creation, and accept the flow and ebb of Essence. Your actions become in tune with that flow, and rightness flows from that. This level of Enlightenment is required to practice Terrestrial Martial Arts.


Celestial Enlightenment Charms are less powerful than Solar Charms, and are likewise focused on the Ability in question, but now one knows one's place in the Creation, as well as the Heavens. Powerful for DBs and Heroic Mortals, they aren't as powerful as most Solars' own Charms. Celestial Enlightment Charms allow the Enlightened to command the elements, calm Spirits, become instruments of the Celestial Bureaucracy and help instill order and harmony. This level is necessary to practice Celestial Martial Arts, but Heroic Mortals are barred from practicing Celestial Martial Arts--not because they lack understanding, but because their frames simply can't handle the Essence required. But, they can practice Enlightenment Charms of this level.


The final level run a bit less powerful than Sidereal Charms, and is required to practice Sidereal Martial Arts--again, DBs and Heroic Mortals can use the Enlightenment Charms, but are barred from using Sidereal Martial Arts. At this point, one begins to understand one's place in the Creation, the Heavens, and understands that there still is yet another level beyond. To transcend the Great Wheel, one has glimmers of the place that the Creation, the Heavens, and how to step outside that flow--and how they all balance. Casting out things from the Outside becomes easier--one understands their place, and while technically Sidereals operate on this level of Enlightenment, they are barred from actually practicing ANY of the Enlightenment Charms. They can make up all the Martial Arts they want still, but they are still locked into their place in understanding how the Creation and the Heavens operate, being an integral part of that balance. Same as the Gods cannot practice this level of Enlightenment either--though, they can use Enlightenment Charms below this level. They are likewise a part of the Creation and the Heavens, so they have that integral understanding, but cannot transcend it. In this, Heroic Mortals, Dragon Blooded, and even Solars can become even more Enlightened than the Gods and their direct servants--though, they have to take the Transcendence Charm to be able to take Sidereal Martial Arts.


But the Enlightenment Charms aren't going to be so much competition for most Exalted's own--but for Dragon Bloods and Heroic Mortals, it can be a real boon, and even elevate them far beyond their station as they advance the Perfected Lotus--and Solars themselves can transcend beyond the Gods and their best servants as well in some things. Ghosts are not barred from walking the Perfected Lotus, but they do have to make some checks every month if they gain the Celestial level of Enlightenment, as they will realize that their place is to pass on, and they'll simply discorporate and return to the Great Wheel. Dragon Kings can certainly walk the Path, but are likewise barred from the final level, owing to their somewhat in between status as Spirits and Mortals. Alchemicals aren't barred from any of the Path, but it's not exactly encouraged by any means, as it may cause some doubt to the purpose of the Autocthonian existence, and the Well of Souls. Technically, Abyssals can practice Enlightenment Charms, but they run the risk of taking on a LOT of Resonance for their trouble.


I am still tinkering with the idea of Infernals and their practice of Enlightenment Charms, but I think that they'll run the risk of breaking the hold of the Primordials, and that means that they're just not going to be allowed to walk the Path beyond the Terrestrial level.


The point is less to make the Exalted more powerful--the Enlightenment Charms are a decent sized drain on XP--but to make Heroic Mortals and other critters in the Creation a bit more interesting--and make the Path of the Perfected Lotus less about kicking ass and taking names. I'm hoping even to have Enlightened who don't practice Martial Arts at all. Enlightened Potters. Enlightened librarians. Enlightened boatswains. Make Enlightenment about saints and Buddhas, as opposed to warrior monks.