Number of Yozi

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Oh, but it'd be good fun! She'd be a whirlwind for anyone to take care of or impale to just get the exaltation pried out of.

 

[Thanqol]

Oh' date=' but it'd be good fun! She'd be a whirlwind for anyone to take care of or impale to just get the exaltation pried out of.[/quote']
Prising the Exaltation out would just give that problem to someone else.


That's the thing. Memory pruning is important so it doesn't permanently screw your Exaltations. They're only supposed to remember the good bits.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

I...realize this.


You realize I've been having fun at your expense for the last few posts, right?

 

[Thanqol]

I...realize this.
You realize I've been having fun at your expense for the last few posts, right?

It's before noon and I haven't had my coffee. Sarcasm and irony scanners are offline.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Dammit, man! Drink moar!

 

[wordman]

If you are looking to count the Primordials, you should probably check out a "fringe theory" that speculates that each of the "Maiden" scriptures in the Sidereal book refers to a Primordial and, thus, each Primordial is intimately tied to an Ability.


This idea has a number of sub-theories:

• Prior to the creation of the Loom, there was only one "super-Primordial" of loose definition, but the Loom required concrete definition, so the being split into well-defined pieces.
  
• A similar theory of everything that ignores the scriptures, but thinks about the notion that killing a Primordial essentially killed their associated ability. That is, when the Neverborn died, they took whatever Ability they represented with them.
  
• A fully fleshed out interpretation of the Yozi/ability pantheon
  
• I can't find the page right now, but somewhere there is a discussion of how this theory explains the Ability changes between first and second edition as real changes in Creation, with there actually being a shift in the Primordials themselves.

If you buy into this theory, the number of Primordials matches the number of Abilities.

 

[cyl]

I really don't buy it for several reasons:


- Since SWLIHN destroyed a bunch of stuff/beings/knowledge/concepts, it's most likely that she would have destroyed abilities... but I can't really picture her burning primordials as well.


- what happened to the Primordials that died, but not quite so... did their abilities died with them ?!


- what of the fleeing remaining primordial ? (from DotFA)


If you match the number of Neverborn+Yozis+Gaia+Autochton I think you're well past 25.

 

[Flamane]

About the other Exalted thread I had missed, I don't really like it. Nothing against the concept of other Incarnae. There's at least one of them who sided with the Primordials (Nox, the Maidens brother). That they could have their own Exalted is a good idea too. The thing that I don't like is thinking their Exalted would simply go mad and destroy themselves after the death of their patron.


It would be much nicer if their exaltations began to dissipate after the death of the Incarna, after all, it's instrisically linked to it, to the concept the god represents. The death of the god doesn't destroy the concept, but would destroy the link that gave the main theme of the exaltation. Like, if the Unconquerewd Sun died, the Solars wouldn't be able to channel excellence anymore.


So, if they started to slowly lose their powers would be much more interesting. They would have little time to kiss the war goodbye, giving their best to go in a a blaze of glory, before they became the mortals they once were. That the other Exalted simply ignored their role is just a sign of the Great Curse: you would never forget a colleague who went that far for the cause.


About the number of Primordials... it really doesn't matter. If you want there to be ten of them, 2 Neverborn, Gaia, Autochton, and the only 6 Yozis you like, so be it. I realize you all know that, and it's hard to resist the urge to get to a definitive answer, but I fear it's impossible.

 

[cyl]

What if the exalts had been made in their patron's image without any link of dependance or subordination ?


What examples in the canon setting do we have of a patron Incarnae actually "doing something" to one of his chosen ?


I don't remember any example, but I think of many examples in which the Incarnaes just stood by (probably intoxicated by the games) and only one in which they stepped up to correct their mistakes (the maidens repaired the Mask when the siddies broke it during the first steps of the Usurpation).

 

[Plague of Hats]

I really don't buy it for several reasons:

The titan-Ability thing isn't a bad thing to run with if you don't mind shutting off prehistory gaming completely. Which is something I hate, but whatever. It won't become a problem in "contemporary" games unless you go around slaying more titans, which isn't really common. But this is the kind of stuff you can put in your game if you want no matter what is published, whereas actually publishing something that shuts off history or future stories like that is a horrible idea.

- Since SWLIHN destroyed a bunch of stuff/beings/knowledge/concepts, it's most likely that she would have destroyed abilities... but I can't really picture her burning primordials as well.

Concepts, etc. can be underlying principles of extant Abilities that simply can't be applied anymore. Like, if lethal damage doesn't exist as a concept, that doesn't invalidate all the combat Abilities. But, She Who Lives in Her Name is literally incapable of permanently slaying other titans anyway.

- what happened to the Primordials that died, but not quite so... did their abilities died with them ?!

If you mean the Neverborn, those are the only titans that died. Meaning, in this theory, there were at least five other Abilities pre-War. Of course, if the number of Yozis, Gaia and Autochthon are to be taken as the extant Abilities, that means the unreturned Primordial that survived the War took his Ability with him. Which means all kinds of terrible things for the game unless you ignore either the theory, the gameable past or the surviving veteran Primordial.

It would be much nicer if their exaltations began to dissipate after the death of the Incarna, after all, it's instrisically linked to it, to the concept the god represents. The death of the god doesn't destroy the concept, but would destroy the link that gave the main theme of the exaltation. Like, if the Unconquerewd Sun died, the Solars wouldn't be able to channel excellence anymore.

This is just a different version of the "the Primordials would have wrestled the Incarnae to the ground and made them order their Exalted to stop fighting."

About the number of Primordials... it really doesn't matter. If you want there to be ten of them, 2 Neverborn, Gaia, Autochton, and the only 6 Yozis you like, so be it. I realize you all know that, and it's hard to resist the urge to get to a definitive answer, but I fear it's impossible.

It's nice to get a ballpark, especially if you like making the game gameable at all points. Ballparks often lead to tennis courts, which lead to scale models and precise measurements.

 

[wordman]

...that means the unreturned Primordial that survived the War took his Ability with him. Which means all kinds of terrible things for the game unless you ignore either the theory' date=' the gameable past or the surviving veteran Primordial.[/quote']...or you assume the notion that his ability isn't "visible" is totally wrong. Just assign the missing Primordial to Dodge or Stealth or something. If Gaia and Autochthon get "visible" abilities in this theory, why make the assumption that the missing one doesn't?

 

[Plague of Hats]

...that means the unreturned Primordial that survived the War took his Ability with him. Which means all kinds of terrible things for the game unless you ignore either the theory' date=' the gameable past or the surviving veteran Primordial.[/quote']...or you assume the notion that his ability isn't "visible" is totally wrong. Just assign the missing Primordial to Dodge or Stealth or something. If Gaia and Autochthon get "visible" abilities in this theory, why make the assumption that the missing one doesn't?

Because 23 + 2 + 1 = 26.

 

[wordman]

Because 23 + 2 + 1 = 26.

So, rather than change a number in a single sentence of one of the more obscure books by one, you instead, you "shut off prehistory gaming completely". Yeah... uh... I wouldn't do it that way.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Because 23 + 2 + 1 = 26.

So, rather than change a number in a single sentence of one of the more obscure books by one, you instead, you "shut off prehistory gaming completely". Yeah... uh... I wouldn't do it that way.

The whole tying Abilities to living titans things already shuts off prehistoric gaming without some considerably acrobatic contrivances. I'm not saying you can't just ignore the rogue Primordial or change it or whatever, but it can be a problem that requires fixing depending on what and where you draw information from. Since I'm not talking about anyone's personal game, I'm talking about the problems that arise when the theory bumps up against the books.

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

So, if they started to slowly lose their powers would be much more interesting. They would have little time to kiss the war goodbye, giving their best to go in a a blaze of glory, before they became the mortals they once were. That the other Exalted simply ignored their role is just a sign of the Great Curse: you would never forget a colleague who went that far for the cause.

I really like this. In other words, you're saying a scenario where the dwindling Exalts of dead gods/incarnae basically went kamikaze on the Primordials. Such mad zealotry could turn the tide of a war...and, I also like the idea of the Great Curse making the survivors rewrite history to say "Nope, they went mad! It was all us that did the world-saving!"

 

[Flamane]

I really like this. In other words' date=' you're saying a scenario where the dwindling Exalts of dead gods/incarnae basically went kamikaze on the Primordials. Such mad zealotry could turn the tide of a war...and, I also like the idea of the Great Curse making the survivors rewrite history to say "Nope, they went mad! It was all us that did the world-saving!"[/quote']
Yes, something like that. Of course, it's just an idea, there's no referrence to anything like that. I was just trying to make the concept of defeated incarnae/exalted fit in the way I see the game. I mean, they're Creation's greatest heroes and liberators. They should have a chance to make a difference, even if irredeemably broken. So, let they make one last, if doomed, effort. To say they went mad and died off is just too mean. I would NEVER do something like that to my player's characters, even if they screwed up and let their patron Incarna get killed.


The Great Curse is just one feasible explanation why their role in the war was supressed.

 

[Jagane]

The Great Curse is just one feasible explanation why their role in the war was supressed.

The whole thing with those dead gods is weird though, they, and apparently other gods that died during the war with the primordials get mentioned in Dreams of the First Age; Guide to Meru, when they talk about the Fallen Stars Memorial, but they say that somehow said gods would have been completely forgotten if not for Autochthon and Gaia preserving their memories, but then it goes on to say that it's forbidden to write the names of those gods since Autochthon took the names with him when he left, what was he going to do with them?

 

[Flamane]

That dead gods/exalted thread is one of the least explored in the game. The Guide to Meru thing is just too short and a real tease. I admit it doesn't make much difference for Second Age playing, but what about pre-history? I think all we have to do is either ignore it or make it work the way best fits us, at least until we see some real mentioning of it in future books.

The whole thing with those dead gods is weird though, they, and apparently other gods that died during the war with the primordials get mentioned in Dreams of the First Age; Guide to Meru, when they talk about the Fallen Stars Memorial, but they say that somehow said gods would have been completely forgotten if not for Autochthon and Gaia preserving their memories, but then it goes on to say that it's forbidden to write the names of those gods since Autochthon took the names with him when he left, what was he going to do with them?

Just as I said... a real tease.

It would be much nicer if their exaltations began to dissipate after the death of the Incarna' date=' after all, it's instrisically linked to it, to the concept the god represents. The death of the god doesn't destroy the concept, but would destroy the link that gave the main theme of the exaltation. Like, if the Unconquerewd Sun died, the Solars wouldn't be able to channel excellence anymore.[/quote']This is just a different version of the "the Primordials would have wrestled the Incarnae to the ground and made them order their Exalted to stop fighting."

How? The Primordial had to kill the Incarna to get rid of it's Exalted, wich most ceratinly was no easy task. The Unconquered Sun, Luna and the Maidens are all around after the war, and I'm sure the Primordials tried to do away with them very early in the war, but failed. Talking to your enemy is easy, killing it is something else.

 

[Plague of Hats]

How? The Primordial had to kill the Incarna to get rid of it's Exalted, wich most ceratinly was no easy task. The Unconquered Sun, Luna and the Maidens are all around after the war, and I'm sure the Primordials tried to do away with them very early in the war, but failed. Talking to your enemy is easy, killing it is something else.

Primarily, it's about the agency of the Exalted. This idea has inherent in it a dependence on the Incarnae that no Exalted should have.
But there's also strategy. The gods couldn't actually fight the titans in any effective fashion. They almost certainly were ordered to tell the Exalted to stop, and when that didn't work the Primordials would have turned to the ongoing threat to deal with it. But if (and when, thanks to the Fallen Stars Memorial thing) they found out that killing a god kills off a whole host of Exalted, the war becomes a lot simpler. They go from having X Terrestrials and 700 Celestial targets to having less than 10. And this select group of targets can't do shit to the titans. That's too good an advantage not to be taken. Not exploiting it requires stepping over that fine line between Evil Overlord and Complete Doofus. Sure, the Incarnae are no easy target themselves, but they're certainly defeatable and more so if you've got the Divine Geas backing you up.

 

[Sherwood]

But, with that in mind, I would think that the Incarna would have made themselves scarce as possible to avoid getting stomped on by the Primordials, either out of spite or some very real combat advantage. Hidden strongholds to curl up in the back closet and suck your thumb. And with the very visible threat of the Exalted hacking your component souls to bits, why worry about trying to find where the US has slinked off to? You can deal with him later, because everyone knows that some dinky little exalts couldn't possibly be a real threat to a mighty primordial, right?

 

[Plague of Hats]

But, with that in mind, I would think that the Incarna would have made themselves scarce as possible to avoid getting stomped on by the Primordials, either out of spite or some very real combat advantage. Hidden strongholds to curl up in the back closet and suck your thumb.

But, especially now that we have Glories, the Incarnae both aren't weak enough not to be enormous assets to the War, nor are they of the temperament to go hide in a closet even if it's the right thing to do (unless it's the right thing to do according to samsara).

And with the very visible threat of the Exalted hacking your component souls to bits, why worry about trying to find where the US has slinked off to? You can deal with him later, because everyone knows that some dinky little exalts couldn't possibly be a real threat to a mighty primordial, right?

Even if the Incarnae were hidden in some way, it's doubtful that none of the Primordials would have gone looking, especially after more than one of their number actually died. Malfeas may have been shocked stupid by the event, but it wouldn't have been a very interesting apocalypse if all the others stopped fighting effectively after that, too.