(not) Noticing the great curse.

[Flagg]

Tell me, is this in the spirit of the Flaw?

I suppose, however I tend to look at that flaw as consuming, mindless rage. Making decisions about which weapons to use seems to be beyond the mental capacity of one under this flaw's spell. Hell, IIRC, you can't even distinguish friend from foe.


However, that's just my take.


-S

 

[memesis]

Tell me, is this in the spirit of the Flaw?

I suppose, however I tend to look at that flaw as consuming, mindless rage. Making decisions about which weapons to use seems to be beyond the mental capacity of one under this flaw's spell. Hell, IIRC, you can't even distinguish friend from foe.


However, that's just my take.


-S

Making decisions.. like which weapon in his arsenal is stronger?


NOT making those sorts of decisions or evaluations leads to the scenario I outline above, where he uses whatever is immediately on hand.

 

[Flagg]

NOT making those sorts of decisions or evaluations leads to the scenario I outline above, where he uses whatever is immediately on hand.

...until he encounters hard armor, in which case you have him deliberately selecting an appropriate tool.


-S

 

[memesis]

NOT making those sorts of decisions or evaluations leads to the scenario I outline above, where he uses whatever is immediately on hand.

...until he encounters hard armor, in which case you have him deliberately selecting an appropriate tool.


-S

Wrong.  Look at what is going on - rationality has taken a back seat.  He is receiving periodic suggestions from old habits, and those only manage to get through in a moment where the rage isn't successfully wiping out something or someone.  Rage is what's in control, and everything that he does will be filtered through what it allows.


There is no deliberate selection process.  There is a moment where Rage stops shouting for a moment and Reason says, "a sword works better against armor", and Rage goes "Okay" and promptly continues, satisfied.


Let's look at three movies or TV shows that helped to define what "berzerker rage" is for me, for this PC.


The first is the Hulk movie, from Ang Lee.  Observe what he does during the rampage at the end: he smashes through walls, decimates the underground base's structure, and destroys tanks and helicopters.  He recognizes the control center as enough of a threat to toss an elevator platform frisbee-style at it, but he doesn't go retrieve that big effective metal disc once it's been used.  Its purpose was served, and now his rage has other targets.


The second is Neon Genesis Evangelion, where Shinji's berzerk states early on in the show are illustrative and effective.  He kicks, punches, and tears through anything that opposes him.  He vents his anger on a downed Angel, finally tearing parts off of it and using them as weapons.  At that moment, his berzerker state wasn't getting as much mayhem as it needed, so it felt around for an answer, and came across the realization that a weapon was at hand.


The third is The Crow (the original movie), during the big shootout involving Brandon Lee.  While his actions overall weren't berzerker rage, they did have an interesting cast.  Guns, martial arts, and a sword weren't the focus of his attacks.  They were just tools, to be used as needed, then cast aside (as the sword was) when their purpose was used up.  Eric himself was the important part; the weapons and fighting techniques were merely conveniences for anger to express itself through.


And now let's look at the alternative.  Let's say that every 20 sessions, this character snaps.  If what he did was make a calculated effort to destroy AS MUCH AS HE COULD - to maximize his destructive ability, which includes taking into account weapon choice, defense, and whatever else - he'd very quickly be leveling large villages or small towns in the requisite scene.  All well and good, and some STs like to say "yeah, that's the Great Curse, how terrible it is".  But it FEELS WRONG.  It feels like the character has just abandoned everything that he is inside, and become this wholly new person.  That, to me, is not what the Virtue Flaw is - the Flaw is a corruption of who you already are, not some strange death-god that comes and goes when the dice say to.

 

[DarkProphet]

Tell me, is this in the spirit of the Flaw?

I'd say yes, but I'd also say that going all out with the sword, butchering anything in your path, whether it's a person or just the bar, is in the spirit of the Flaw.  I'd personalize it with the character.  Whatever fits best for the character, whether it's as memesis describes, or drawing a grand daiklave from the start and becoming a whirlwind of blood, steel and gore turning anything that comes against you, no matter how well armed (or not at all) into a fine red mist are equally in the spirit.


Ideally it's whatever fits the character.  The flaw is basically an over the top psychopathic rage... how would character "A" behave if overcome by such superhuman emotions?  


I've never actually played a character with this Flaw, my characters tend to end up with heart of flint or one of the compassion flaws.  I've never actually created a solar who had Valor as a primary virtue... or really valor any higher than two.  The games I did, our ST rule that you had the 1 virtue flaw and that was it, no matter how high other virtues became.  However, if I had created a character with said flaw, I could easily see them acting the way memesis described, and just as easily see them starting out from the beginning with massive overkill.


that's my two cents... not that I made a grand or entirely meaningful contribution, but there it is.

 

[Andrew02]

It feels like the character has just abandoned everything that he is inside, and become this wholly new person.  

That seems very, very appropriate for berserker rage. Hulk works on that level. Hulk is Banner's rage amplified so much that there is barely anything connecting the two (i.e. the love for Betty).


It really sounds like you're better off with the compassion rage. It lets you get away without letting loose and being as destructive as you could possibly be.


I think the interpretation that the Great Curse just takes something about the character and twists it a little, then cranks the knob up to 11 loses out on a lot. When the Great Curse is going, you are Limit Breaking, that's when you get to be the Great Big Solar Monster that everyone was so scared shitless of. It's all of the shit Lytek couldn't get out of shards, all of the bad things that've crept into your bones since the shard took you and changed you into an Exalt.


It's not very expedient to do, though. It doesn't really do much, either, because most of the time it'll hit and fuck up your quest. Hulk works on the threat of Banner changing being central, and how its important he keep himself in control. Exalted doesn't seem geared for that. It doesn't seemed geared to focus in on the very real possibility that a Limit Break is anything other than a flare-up tantrum that no one even notices as very strange.


Deliberate Cruelty? "Oh, Solar A is being more of a prick than usual!"


Berserk Anger? "Dammit, Solar B broke my favorite clay pot!"


Heart of Tears? "Solar C's off crying for the horrible state of the world - again. Leave him be. He'll get it out his system in a day or two."


The Great Curse is what made Solars into the mosntrous tyrants who needed to be put down or else the world would descend into a bleak, black ball of a hell.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Jakk's Flaw has changed since we started play.  His Valor has outstripped his Conviction, and so it seemed more apropriate to change things over to reflect that change.


Used to be the Heart of Flint--where Jakk is a pragmatic sort most of the time, looking for the most efficient and useful path, as opposed to the "noble"  option, it seemed to fit. Bandit Chief who goes off the deep end at times, forgetting about human drives and needs, and instead focuses entirely on the job at hand.  While the description of the Flaw isn't so scary--the loss of 2 on Social rolls just isn't that impressive--the way I ususally play it out, Jakk becomes hyper pragmatic, willing to sacarifice anyone and anything to achieve his goals, and if the fastest, most efficient method is to sacrifice a unit of Infantry to distract, he'll do so. If that means cutting off the hands and feet of a prisoner and sending them out scream in the night to rattle their homies, he'll do it without a thought. If turning his forces away from protecting a village that lies in the path of barbarian horde, to hit them after they spend themselves on raging on that villiage, saving resources and conserving energy, that's what he did.


Now, he's got Valor higher than Conviction. So, he's rolling with Foolhardy Contempt.  Which, as a bit of showboat already, makes sense.  Normally, Jakk is a showboat to distract his opponents--taking the snappy banter approach of Spiderman into Exalted, and keeping his foes off balance--and while he's the center of attention, others can get the job done that needs to get done. He prefers that the job gets done though, and if that means sneaking past guards and infiltrating he's usually down for that--again, he's a pragmatic sort, who prefers to be efficient. He's just got these nifty powers now that mean that he can take on a company of infantry by himself now, and while they concentrate their fire and ire on the Undefeated Tiger of the East, our Night Caste and Twilight go unnoticed.


But when he Breaks...it's all about the show.It's all about the ego.  Similar to the previous Break, where he knew the best choices to make that were uncolored by affection or emotion, now he knows that his skills make him the baddest mofo in the Valley, and he'll prove it. No more skulking in the shadows, no more sniping and hit and runs, he can tear apart whole battalions, and he's going to prove it.


Limit Breaks require players to committ their characters. Not just into situations, but to commit them emotionally as well. To take the character, accept that they have these deep flaws, and run with them. Rather than seeing them as a complete detriment, folks should embrace the opportunity to further explore the depth of their characters.


When Jakk snaps, it's an opportunity to show what really drives the character. Limit Breaks are all about the Great Curse, but it's a chance to open up the id, get down to the basics of what drives the character, and while the Great Curse is nasty, it opens up some great roleplaying opportunities.


Thing is--each expression of the Curse is a little different.  Not everyone acts in the same way, and while I've seen folks try to avoid the Curse with crappy roleplaying, it sounds as if Memeisis at least has rationalized how the character is acting, within the confines of the Curse. And it's different for everyone. Jakk has some serious contempt for danger now--and showboats for effect, looking for bigger and bigger opportunities to indulge himself, but another might even get angry if anyone interferes with their displays--tries to horn in on their action.


The Great Curse amplifies what is already there.  It takes it up to the next level, and it isn't as if someone throws a switch and they become different people, they have a switch thrown that intensifies what is already there. The important thing is for the player to choose a Flaw that accurately reflects the character, so that it is an outgrowth of play.

 

[Flagg]

The games I did, our ST rule that you had the 1 virtue flaw and that was it, no matter how high other virtues became.

That's not a special house rule. That's the way the game works as printed.


-S

 

[memesis]

I see a good range of opinions presented here.  I do think the "Banner/Hulk" comparison, where a Limit Breaking Solar becomes a very different personality from his normal self, works in some games.  For MY character, it doesn't.


For Gods of Eden, it doesn't (and having it seem almost normal, stemming more or less from the characters' own natures, has led to some great RP - see the following URLs for examples).


http://pandoraslair.org/m/memesis.php?id=950


http://pandoraslair.org/m/memesis.php?id=951


The scenes they are presented with stem from a very subtle reading of the Great Curse, taken to its eventual conclusion.  Much more subtle than "I draw my axe and slaughter everyone in the temple in a whirlwind of gold and blood", but equally valid for dramatic purposes.

 

[DarkProphet]

The games I did, our ST rule that you had the 1 virtue flaw and that was it, no matter how high other virtues became.

That's not a special house rule. That's the way the game works as printed.


-S

Hrm.. that's the way I read it originally... I thought I had read or heard it somewhere that any virtue 3 or above gained you a flaw.  That could have been someone's house rule and I just got it muddled up in my head.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I would tend to support Stillborn's poisiton, rather than memesis, for a different reason. The Great Curse is a taint upon the Exalted Spark. The Exalted Spark is the shard of Divine Essence that makes an Exalt more tham human, more than an animal, mor than anything merely mortal.


A Limit Break should be equally divine, and terrible.

 

[memesis]

I would tend to support Stillborn's poisiton, rather than memesis, for a different reason. The Great Curse is a taint upon the Exalted Spark. The Exalted Spark is the shard of Divine Essence that makes an Exalt more tham human, more than an animal, mor than anything merely mortal.
A Limit Break should be equally divine, and terrible.

I might agree, except for two things.


First, that the Exaltation itself doesn't really carry behavior with it - you may have memories from past lives, but it's a far cry from Mage's Avatar hovering over your shoulder.  About the best it does is give you an outlook on life via your Caste, but in my world the Caste you get is based on who you are, not vice versa.


Second, throughout oh, five thousand years of recorded history, just about two gods have gone "hmm, that's funny" when the Chosen have been going over the edge on a semi-regular basis.  If their episodes were clearly alien to their basic nature, I would fully expect people with Intelligence, Perception and Wits scores regularly in the 5-8 range to sit up and take notice, things like the Sidereal Curse notwithstanding.  On the other hand, flaws that LOOK LIKE the person in question would probably go unnoticed as they canonically have.


I guess this is the heart of the earlier posts in this discussion - how obvious does the Curse need to be, in-game, before a hundred or more super-geniuses sit up and notice it?  And out of game, how obvious do you WANT the Curse to be?  What role does it fill in your game?

 

[Viragos]

My 2 cents.


Upon reading it it seems to me that the reason the Solars became such monumental pricks during the end of the First Age is that the Great Curse is addictive. in the core rules it states that suffering a limit break is a tremendously cathartic experience. It seems to me at least that sooner or later one of these near divine beings is going to put 2 and 2 together and figure out that "If I go against my nature, be a complete prick, a total bastard to everyone I get to feel good more often" until finally at some point the Solars are acting like that all the time just to get an emotional release from the pressures of running the "perfect" world.

 

[neuromancer]

it's an opportunity to show what really drives the character. Limit Breaks are all about the Great Curse' date=' but it's a chance to open up the id, get down to the basics of what drives the character, and while the Great Curse is nasty, it opens up some great roleplaying opportunities. .[/quote']
I dig it.


I've been running an Exalted game for about a year now and two of the circle recently broke thier limit at the same time.


Now, the first character,  Gan Ning,  is a grandiose mercenary captain known through out the Threshold for his skill in battle.  He tends to play his character over the top.  He doesn't back down from a fight, takes on any challenge, and is willing to stand his ground in almost any situation.


In an earlier fight with a behemoth (Arad the Hunter) he nearly died rather than lose and managed to escape only after he managed to sever the arms of Arad and make off on an airship.


His flaw of course was Foolhearty Contempt.  When it broke, no one thought much of it because he was once again engaged with a terrible foe. A first age ship cum demon.  And simply refused help against the horde of first age demons pouring from the hull.  


The other character an eclipse by the name of Go Stone, was a master guilds man in charge of an entire fleet of guild ships that were docked on the island when the demon ship attacked.  He had a habit of being cruel (torturing a DB prisoner who might know the location of the Wild Hunt, killing a wealthy family to ensure the guilds supremecy, assasinating the rightful ruler of a kingdom and then raising the king's children as his own, ect.) so it was no suprise his flaw was Deliberate Cruelty.  When the attack began the characters (embroiled in a petty bar brawl) were suddenly suprised by the arrival of the ship they were hunting, which instantly opened fire on the fleet as it was docked.


The subsequent damage from both the fight and the ship.  Left nearly half the fleet destroyed.  In order to perserve his good name, the eclipse killed EVERYONE on the island with a storm of arrows from sundown to sunup.


In both cases, everyone else in the circle assumed the characters just went a little too far.  Instead of going up against one supernatural foe, the dawn went up against many.  Instead of betraying a single group, the eclipse betrayed a nation.


In both cases the curse acted like a magnifier, taking a character's flaw and multiplying the scope of its damage.

 

[Umni]

^


ll     in response to this comment. It wasn't a petty brawl, If I remember correctly the brawl ended up engulfing a large part city and if I'm not wrong Gan Ning destroyed a building and killing many innocents and that was how he got his last limit point. Either way it was great.

 

[Jukashi]

I believe I once read that the Great Curse was originally directed at the gods, but they shielded themselves and it bounced back on their exalted. So why don't they know what's up, even if the effects of the curse are relatively subtle? I don't think it really makes sense.


Unless they're really absorbed in the GoD.

 

[Flagg]

I believe I once read that the Great Curse was originally directed at the gods, but they shielded themselves and it bounced back on their exalted. So why don't they know what's up, even if the effects of the curse are relatively subtle? I don't think it really makes sense.

They most likely assumed that since the Curse didn't affect them, it fizzled. And they have been too busy with the GoD since then to notice otherwise.


-S

 

[Jukashi]

Wouldn't anyone notice that Exalted who had been fine during the war suddenly started acting wierd directly after they shielded themselves? I assume the effect was like what happens when you use countermagic against a spell of equal level, with the spell being shattered and magical gunk spewing out all over the place.


I mean, Luna at least still pays some attention to her Exalts, doesn't she?

 

[Jakk Bey]

Notice what?  That the most powerful of the Exalted started acting really hinkey, after the Gods sort of turned a bit hinkey themselves and left the administration of Heaven to their subordinates?  That the heroes who defeated the Primoridals, the most powerful beings ever seen in the Creation went a little mad?  Who is around to see that?  Administrators who are busy with edicts, proposals, and their own budgets?  Wise Administrators who are in turn advised by the Sidereals who are Cursed thesemselves?  Spirits, who've been crapped on since day one of the Creation?  The Dragon Kings who were being driven towards extinction?


The effects of the Great Curse would have been quite noticeable, if anyone was paying attention, or wasn't under the effect of their own version of the Great Curse.  The shortest lived would just accept that the Demi-Gods who helped them out from time to time, sometimes went batty.  The Dragon Bloods weren't in much of a better position, with only a few living long enough to KNOW an Exalt when they weren't a little crazy.  If you're Mortal, and the Exalt down the lane is bug shit crazy, and has been for as long as anyone you know can remember, it's pretty much assumed that they've always been that way--which is why the DB's didn't have such a hard time convincing folks to sign on with them.

 

[Solfi]

... also, as I understand the texts, it took a while for the Curse to actually start manifesting.