(New) World of Darkness?

[Miz]

So I am certain that I am not the only one who is confused by the different versions of World of Darkness. So what is the difference between New World of Darkness and World of Darkness?


Is it just an update with an "interesting" marketing scheme, like Dungeon and Dragons moving between versions, or it is an entirely different game system? Are there any advantages of the New over the Old?


Lastly which one do you prefer and why?

 

[The Dark Wizard]

So I am certain that I am not the only one who is confused by the different versions of World of Darkness. So what is the difference between New World of Darkness and World of Darkness?
Is it just an update with an "interesting" marketing scheme, like Dungeon and Dragons moving between versions, or it is an entirely different game system? Are there any advantages of the New over the Old?


Lastly which one do you prefer and why?

I know @Lord of Chaos, @Kaji-Oni @Grey are all knowledgeable when it comes to this.


Lets see if they can pitch into this conversation.

 

[Grey]

Old World of Darkness ran until the new century, both in terms of its print run and its setting. The world was going to end; it was written in stone. An ST mostly decided how. It's best described as 'gothic-punk', a melding of classic horror tropes and ideas with a Gothic aesthetic and all the most nineties things you could fit.


The linchpin was Vampire: The Masquerade. Billed as a horror game of paranoia, ancient conspiracies, Biblical apocalypse, and personal horror, Masquerade often turned into 'superheroes with fangs', pulp occultism, and trenchcoats-and-katanas. There was a strong metaplot; an overarching series of events with established NPCs - many of whom far outstripped most PCs in power and importance.


Masquerade informed a lot of the rest of the old WoD, mechanically and tonally. Each of the other lines - Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Mage: The Ascension, Changeling: The Dreaming, to name the big three - shared in and modified Masquerade mechanics. Likewise, they shared in sometimes ridiculous scale, zig-zagged power balancing, and being NINETIES AS FUCK.


Apocalypse was about Gaian werewolves fighting to protect the environment from a primordial devourer wyrm, fast food, and pollution; Mage was about science being evil and your inner power being constrained by conformity; Changeling was about staying in touch with inner child so you don't become boring and work in a bank.


That's not charitable of me; Werewolf had some horrific antagonists amid all the racism. Mage had some interesting philosophical underpinnings inspite of the invisible magic space station three times the size of the moon. Changeling was about the knowledge that immortality could be lost, so easily.


The system is horrible. In spite of the vast, shared mythology (a lot of the game can feel like it's servicing fans with winks and nods to its own mythology), the various lines explode on contact. Bigger dice pools - being more skilled - actually makes you more likely to fail because 1s cancel your successes. You kind of have to treat the facets as individual games.


I am most familiar with Masquerade, so here's how I see the oWoD: a big, rickety, charming tower that takes a careful hand to explore, but there's so much to find. Like a Tarantino movie - all references, juxtaposition, and sheer ego that takes refuge in audacity and succeeds through sheer style.


Is my bias showing? Probably. I say most of this with genuine affection, though. Alexandra cut her teeth on oWoD and can probably explain it for you better.


New World of Darkness is my preferred, of the two. It's Modern Gothic, with a lot of room for variation which is outright encouraged. It takes a toolbox approach that upset a lot of oWoD fans over a concrete metaplot. But that affects Requiem more than anything else.


It started, sensibly, with The Blue Book - rules for regular people in the World of Darkness, our world as we know but a little more horrible. It was ideal for ghost stories, slasher stories, alien abduction, and general weird shit. The system isn't perfect, but it's svelte, effective, and really quite lovely. A fine foundation to build on.


For me, where oWoD had buckets of personality and enthusiasm, I feel like nWoD is generally more mature and thematically coherent. Tighter editing, maybe, less insertion of developer characters. Vampire: The Requiem eschewed metaplot for options and uncertainty. That upset some old fans, because they felt like the lack of concrete history rendered the factions less interesting and made scholarly characters redundant, and put too much onus on the ST to come up with history. Personally, I always like there was just enough.


Requiem, in my opinion, does personal horror better than Masquerade. Powers are more subtle and less... powerful. The emphasis is on how far you're willing to compromise your humanity to survive, how much you can trust your fellow vampires, and personal ambition.


Werewolf: The Forsaken is as much about relationships and teamwork as it is policing the spirit world.


Mage: The Awakening is- Actually, no, that one is kind of a mess.


Changeling: The Lost is broadly about abuse, mental illness, and recovery as it is weird faerie tales.


I could go on, but TLR utterly different games with different systems, tones, aesthetics to the point where comparing them is like comparing Lord of the Rings to Star Trek.


But if you have any questions, fire ahead.

 

[Kaji-Oni]

If you are fresh to the game line pick up the New World of Darkness rulebooks and dont look back. Its a brand new edition with better game balance and less wonky mechanics (I hate the Old World of Darkness die system with a fiery passion that consumes my soul). Besides mechanical changes between edition the lore, metaplot and theme of each splat was updated I can g into detail at your convenience and the lines I follow closely are Vampire, Mage and Changeling. Vampire was changed from a world spanning gothic punk game with an impending apocalypse (Gehenna) to a smaller scale game of personal horror with no impending apocalypse or objective origin stories also the judeo-christian origins of vampires were nixed.


I prefer NWoD the mechanics are a hell of a lot simpler, the powers make sense (there is a fortitude power for vampires in OWoD which turned them into lava monsters but that has like no place in vampire legends or a magical skillset that makes you more resistant to damage) and you dont want a setting that is really focused on the coming apocalypse (the mechanics are built to represent this with the caitiff and generation systems)

 

[gatherer818]

I can appreciate New WoD's updated mechanics, but I hate the fluff so much. I have trouble detailing exactly why, although I may try when (if) I have a day off, but it doesn't feel like world of darkness to me. More like... world of slightly darker. The clans and tribes were homogenized enough that they don't have their own flavors, and the reduced power difference between supernaturals and mortals is rather noticeable. Only the weakest oWoD vampires and NONE of their werecreatures could lose to a single human with anything less than military grade hardware or jury-rigged explosives, and typically it took a highly trained, highly equipped hunter or else a whole gang of men to challenge a vampire. The players weren't meant to be challenged by mortals - dealing with your fellow supernatural creatures (for vampires) or fending off the eternal darkness of the Wyrm (for werewolves) was the big issue, and lesser plots wove through or took dominance as the story demanded.


I don't have much experience with nWoD, but mostly because the experience I do have hasn't left a good impression. However, playing mortals (or Innocents, and possibly Hunters, though I haven't tried Hunters yet) in nWoD is amazing. The new rules and focus on personal horror bring SO MUCH to those games that was lacking in oWoD. Basically, oWoD mortals were built on a skeleton meant to support supernaturals, and they came out like supernaturals without a few powers, like junior Xmen instead of the lead team. In nWoD, the system is built to support mortals, and it leaves their supernaturals feeling underwhelming, but their mortals are excellent.


Another point in nWoD's favor is that the homogenization fluff fixed some of the glaring disconnects between games that existed in the oWoD line. Mixed games, even throwing balance aside, could be absolute nightmares if your players didn't just want to run a combat-heavy killfest. The Astral Plane, the Umbra (and Penumbra), and the world that Vampires could travel to using their mental projection power were all assumed to be the same, but they didn't WORK the same. The rules just said to use the rules for the game you're running - so, treat it like the Umbra if you're playing Werewolf, and the Astral if you're playing Mage. But in a mixed game... It got much worse if you tried comparing origin stories.


This is turning into a wall of text, but basically, I find for running supernaturals, I like oWoD much better. The die system is more flexible (although more complicated for it!) and the powers, power levels, and general setting imply that you are powerful enough to call human beings 'cattle'. For running personal-scale games where you're not expected to save the world or at least survive amongst a noble court of ancient immortals and their power games, nWoD is probably better. If you're already familiar with Exalted, nWoD will also be really easy to learn the system for, while oWoD has some added complications and differences from Exalted (that I still occasionally confuse, I'll admit).

 

[Grey]

-snip-

I contend that the old system is in fact rigid, but appears flexible because it's an imbalanced mess with too many variables.


And furthermore, while Requiem might have been underwhelming in the core, the supplemental stuff is really, really cool. Furthermore, the other supernaturals are not so underwhelming - Werewolves are combat powerhouses with a really interesting backstory, Changelings have crazy versatility, Mages are still OP, Sin-Eaters are unkillable with more neat fluff, Mummy is gorgeous, Promethean is just... amazing. Hunter has a great atmosphere and broad options.


And I'd argue mortals still need special training to take out Vampires, but it depends on how the ST is running it.

 

[Inquisitor]

I have to say, both New and Old have their ups and downs. As Grey said, Mage in both is just plain stupid, wacky, OP, and... Well... I think he summarized it better. The one thing I don't enjoy when it comes to old vs. new is that new really cut out a lot of the stuff I had a special place for in my heart, when it came to Vampires. So many of my precious favorite clans, gone in the core. Then again, they did reintroduce a ton more things dealing with bloodlines that kinda filled in the gaps, but still. Mekhet Master Race.


I digress. The crazy interconnectedness of Old was always an issue for me. There was so much to keep track of that it became sometimes painful to remember what organization is where is doing what and when and why and how and all that crap. Eventually I would just give up and pretend certain things didn't exist, just so that I could carry on with the story easier. It bothers me on occasion. Eh. But in the end, it's all well and good. If you ever used oWoD, as Kaji said, then put it down and pick up nWoD instead. If you've never played either before, then I don't really know. I started on nWoD and moved back, then forward again. It's weird. Once I got hooked on nWoD and tried to explore backwards, I found that a lot of times it didn't work very well for my tastes. Still love oWoD Masquerade, though. I'll always be able to play a game of that.

 

[Ina]

Just regarding the cattle thing.


Most forms of cattle could kill a human being without too much trouble. They don't mainly because a) we don't provoke them. b) we've got a long history of making them docile beasts.


An angry cow is not much less dangerous than an angry hippo, it's just that we have bred the cow not to be angry as rapidly as the hippo. Cattle is cattle because it's generally docile, not being they don't pose a risk.


Same for the power balance between supernaturals and mortals in nWoD. The supernaturals, especially the less physically powerful ones, have very good reasons to keep the cattle away from the knowledge that lets them fight back. Yeah, sure, a mortal can kill a vampire. What reason does he have to do so if he doesn't even know the guy is a vampire?

 

[Miz]

Sorry for my late response to this conversation. I read over all of your guys comments, thanks its great to have such informed opinions. So I understand that, while different, the new World of Darkness's rules help add some balance to an older game with a lot of extra content.


My question is aimed towards you guys, @Grey touched on the subject but I wanted a more direct answer. Does the actual setting change between the two versions? Like I get from Grey's post that it may not be in the 1990s anymore, but besides that is there major changes to how the setting and characters perform? New races/supernatural creatures or ones that got removed?

 

[Grey]

Sorry for my late response to this conversation. I read over all of your guys comments, thanks its great to have such informed opinions. So I understand that, while different, the new World of Darkness's rules help add some balance to an older game with a lot of extra content.
My question is aimed towards you guys, @Grey touched on the subject but I wanted a more direct answer. Does the actual setting change between the two versions? Like I get from Grey's post that it may not be in the 1990s anymore, but besides that is there major changes to how the setting and characters perform? New races/supernatural creatures or ones that got removed?

Major changes.


In oWoD, the world ends circa 2000. That's it; the antediluvians rise, Gehenna comes, the world is changed beyond recognition. How, precisely, is down to the ST.


In nWoD, you're free to set it in any time period, but the default is assumed to be the present day.


They are two completely different settings - in nWoD, oWoD never happened. In oWoD, nWoD will never happen.


As to things removed or changed - yes, yes, yes. Vampires now no longer know their history with certainty, Clan is less important than Covenant, there are only five Clans but a lot of Bloodlines. In place of Camarilla and Sabbat, there are now Lancea Sanctum, Ordo Dracul, Circle of the Crone, The Carthian Movement, and the Invictus in place of Camarilla, while Belial's Brood and VII fill in the space left by the Sabbat.


Let me think... Werewolves are now the descendants of Luna and Father Wolf, tasked with policing the spirit world.


Changelings are now people stolen by the Fae and transformed, instead of reincarnated Fae.


Mages are people whose souls have crossed the Abyss and glimpsed the Supernal, instead of people fused with Avatars.


Wraith has been replaced by Geist, which is a colossal tonal and stylistic change.


There are no Kuei-Jin thank god.


Hunters are no longer pseudo-exalts, but instead regular folks sick of monsters/shady conspiracies using monsters for their own ends.


There are tons of optional supernaturals in the various supplements, time periods such as WWII and Rome (including a recent supplement about the fall of Rome).


So yes, massive changes. Abandon everything you know of oWoD when approaching nWoD, and vice-versa.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Don't forget, @Grey, that the Forsaken are called that for a reason. You're also fucking hated and hunted by the raging, racist majority of the other werewolves - The Pure.

 

[Alexandra]

Major changes.
In oWoD, the world ends circa 2000. That's it; the antediluvians rise, Gehenna comes, the world is changed beyond recognition. How, precisely, is down to the ST.


In nWoD, you're free to set it in any time period, but the default is assumed to be the present day.


<snip>

Just to interject, as it sounds like Masquerade is nothing but "ermagherd 90s!", there were a bunch of historical supplements; Vampire Dark Ages (which is excellent) and Victorian Age Vampire. Those two settings extended to a few of the other lines, though I'd need to check the bibliography to be sure of how it was spread about; I can confirm however, that Dark Ages Changeling the Dreaming was a thing of grace and beauty.


There were some other, problematic historical and geographical supplements that almost became downright racist in places (Gypsy, anyone...?), but thankfully the fan base acknowledged this, and they're now held up as excellent examples of what not to do ever. I always believed the main reason some of the sillier elements of the Old World got so out of control was because these kinds of books had never been written before, and this learning experience is now reflected in the finesse of new lines like Geist, Promethean, and the upcoming Demon book. They're taking it to great places indeed.

There are no Kuei-Jin thank god.

Someone's getting a smack for commenting on something he hasn't read


I always liked the Year of the Lotus line; their Vampire had an extremely different feel to the western variant, and a completely different creation myth and raison d'être. If you wanted anime style action; Strike Force Zero was there to hunt monsters. If you enjoy games like Legend of the Five Rings, and want to get your courtly intrigue on; it's highly encouraged.


While it did suffer a little bit of a pan-Asian brushing over, they have a section detailing the differences in court structure and some ideologies according to geographical location; China, Japan, Korea, Singapore and Malaysia are dealt with, but Kindred of the East uses China as its focal point.

 

[Inquisitor]

It is indeed true that the two settings have nothing to do with each other. In oWoD, nWoD will never exist. In nWoD, oWoD never occurred. And beyond that, the two really are hard to compare. Indeed, oWoD had so much sass, flavor and personality that I sometimes feel is just plain lacking in nWoD. I'll jump out on a limb and tell the world that I'm genuinely sad they changed the lore so much and abandoned a lot of the ideas they had going (but remember, Mage never happened, my friends). I get why, but still sad. The one big bonus that I feel we get from nWoD--aside from streamlined rules that aren't a pain in the ass--is in fact the open-endedness. There's no mandate to stay insanely well-read on every single event in all the books--each of which has enough material to survive on its own in oWoD. You don't have to plan events months ahead by mining the supplements for the pure gold that is some of the fluff. There's no need to read up on everything Mummy because you're doing Vampire and mummies are trying to eliminate a clan and whatnot. It's pick-and-choose, which is fantastic. It's a build-a-story system. If you want a game of Werewolves where they're being oppressed by Vampires, then so be it. You add in exactly as much as you need, and nothing more. In the end, it just runs smoother. Granted, I do miss some of oWoD's personality.


Oh, and Werewolves and Changelings are a lot cooler now. A lot less like shit, what with not having to focus so hardcore on the apocalypse because of the oWoD metaplot.

 

[Melissia]

I preferred the old world of darkness storyline and setting. But like many, its die pools annoyed me.

 

[Alexandra]

I preferred the old world of darkness storyline and setting. But like many, its die pools annoyed me.

Oh gosh, yes.


I would never attempt to defend it as a better system...that would be nuts. Especially that "1s cancel the highest success" nonsense. That rule can go die in a fire...

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Luckily, most sane STs throw it out the window.

 

[Alexandra]

[QUOTE="Cthulhu_Wakes]Luckily, most sane STs throw it out the window.

[/QUOTE]
Instead of ditching the 1s, we had 10s count as two successes. Kept the possibility for botching....always disliked that rule though.


We played Masquerade solidly for three years, and amassed a number of house rules. Celerity was fixed by ruling you could only have a number of extra actions according to your Generation limit of blood expenditure; any other ones required willpower. And as a Lasombra, the number of Arms of Ahriman you could control was based on your permanent Willpower; each extra cost willpower.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Madness, I say!

 

[Alexandra]

[QUOTE="Cthulhu_Wakes]Madness, I say!

[/QUOTE]
...which bit?


The system was a bit mad to begin with, in my opinion.