New ST -- Some basic questions

[Kami-Kaze]

I'm a new ST (well, new to Exalted almost entirely, really) who just wants to check a few things for now.


First off, if a character flurries/multiple actions to such a degree that their internal penalty means they couldn't possibly pass a test (i.e. they have a 5-die pool and end up at a -5 penalty minimum on their rolls), but then buys successes with the second excellency, can this let them bypass even massive flurry penalties or is there some ruling against this somewhere?


Second, just how common are Dragonblooded? Not just Realm ones, but DBs in general. My game (which is still just starting) is set in the Scavenger Lands, but i'm not really sure how common DBs are and how often the players should actually encounter any. 10,000+ sounds like a lot, but given most of those are probably in the Blessed Isle and Creation is hella' big, i'm not really sure.


Additionally, any advice on how to handle Mass Combat? My main worry is that whilst you can sort of fudge locations in normal combat, it seems like it's kind of a bigger deal in Mass Combat, so any recommendations for programs to use for it? I'm thinking of checking out Vassal since I figure that would (maybe) work.

 

[Kami-Kaze]

Oh, some additional questions:


Dragonblooded anima flux, at it's highest level, is doing 1 Lethal die of damage per tick. Anyone with lethal soak, including all Exalts, are totally immune to this still, aren't they?


Artifact weapons and armor: Are they destructible at all? I.e. either feat of strength or charms designed to destroy objects. I can't seem to find anything detailing how much harder it is to destroy them, assuming it's possible.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

As far as I can tell (though I may be wrong):


1) This is a viable, if mote-ineffective, tactic. Far better to use Extra Action Charms.


2) In my setting, There are about 80,000 to 90,000 Realm Dragon-Blooded, approximately 40,000 in Lookshy and about 30,000 Forest Witches, 'Lost Eggs' and other Outcastes.


3) I don't often use Mass Combat so, pass. I'll take a question on Sports Stars of the 1980's.


4) As the DB book says (on page 122), at 11-15 motes any being that can soak Lethal with their Stamina are immune. At 16+, all creatures suffer a dice of damage.


5) Oedanol's Codex (page 12), says that an artifact can be broken with a Strength + Athletics roll needed to break a mundane item of the same type (such as a slashing sword for a Reaver Daiklave, a spear for a Direlance or a steel breastplate for an artifact one) plus the Artifact rating. The rules for breaking mundane items are on 153-4 of the main rule book.


The rules above are a guideline. If you want to have the Realm peopled by the 10,000 Dragons, then it can be. If you decide an Artifact sword need 12 damage successes after a soak of 9 to break, then that's what it needs. Work with your players and adjust the rules as written to suit your setting.


Have fun with Storytelling and Exalted.


Captain Hesperus

 

[Kami-Kaze]

For 4, my problem is that it doesn't say this damage is unsoakable or anything, so it still seems like almost anything will be able to soak it no problem anyway. I might just be misreading this though.


Additionally, on that note: When an effect applies dice of damage (such as this, in fact) does it mean rolling a die to determine successes and therefore how much damage or does it just mean directly apply levels?


Similarly, what about things like Bracers adding dodge dice? How is that meant to be dealt with?

 

[Plague of Hats]

Ah, a refreshing batch of reasonable questions from someone who is not poisonously jaded. Thank you, I will partake:

First off' date=' if a character flurries/multiple actions to such a degree that their internal penalty means they couldn't possibly pass a test (i.e. they have a 5-die pool and end up at a -5 penalty minimum on their rolls), but then buys successes with the second excellency, can this let them bypass even massive flurry penalties or is there some ruling against this somewhere?[/quote']
Nope. If your dice pool before adding automatic successes would be 0 or less, the action automatically fails. It doesn't appear to be released into the errata document, yet, but it will be (check my signature for a link).

Second, just how common are Dragonblooded? Not just Realm ones, but DBs in general. My game (which is still just starting) is set in the Scavenger Lands, but i'm not really sure how common DBs are and how often the players should actually encounter any. 10,000+ sounds like a lot, but given most of those are probably in the Blessed Isle and Creation is hella' big, i'm not really sure.

Roughly somewhere in the region of 25,000-30,000, canonically, with the largest "single" concentration being the Blessed Isle. Outside of the Isle, the largest single collection is Lookshy, the only other major described nation with a breeding program (and they happen to breed for numbers, too). These numbers and the situation of nations is probably too small as a canon jumping-off point. Since that boat sailed 10 years ago, if it seems too small just ignore it and do whatever. Maybe someday there will be an Ink Monkeys post about how those figures were a poor estimate made by savants in a fallen age with no census-gathering apparatus, and the real omniscient narrator figure is X.


There are enough wandering heroes and elementally terrifying kings of little nations to bump into them all the time, if need be.


You may find some breeding and Exaltation guidelines in the errata or the First Edition Dragon-Blooded book. You might have some understanding of math and question why Terrestrials have no overrun normal humans. These do not reflect reality and specifically for generational game advancement of PC families.

Additionally, any advice on how to handle Mass Combat? My main worry is that whilst you can sort of fudge locations in normal combat, it seems like it's kind of a bigger deal in Mass Combat, so any recommendations for programs to use for it? I'm thinking of checking out Vassal since I figure that would (maybe) work.

Be as fast and loose with it as normal combat, I say. "The unit is threading through the hills, slowing it down in its ambush of the unit on the road" is just fine, even if technically they're 100 or 200 yards short by the rules and would've just stopped in the hills while the element of surprise whistles away on the wind. The way mass combat is presented in the book, it's aggregate guys beating each other up using the normal combat system with a bunch of extra stuff tacked on.

Dragonblooded anima flux, at it's highest level, is doing 1 Lethal die of damage per tick. Anyone with lethal soak, including all Exalts, are totally immune to this still, aren't they?

Nope, you have to have Hardness to ignore low levels of damage. Otherwise, minimum damage rules kick in. (As with standard Essence users' minimum dice pool rule, if the damage would be lowered to below the attacker's Essence, it instead equals their Essence or the value of the damage if that is lower than their Essence.)

Artifact weapons and armor: Are they destructible at all? I.e. either feat of strength or charms designed to destroy objects. I can't seem to find anything detailing how much harder it is to destroy them, assuming it's possible.

The indestructibility of artifacts is squirreled away as a sentence fragment aside, and due for clarification. What it's probably going to shape up as eventually is: artifacts of the magical materials are indestructible by any means that does not specifically call out being able to destroy them; other artifacts are supernaturally tough, probably adding a significant bonus to resist magical destruction and being outright immune to purely mundane sources of damage, unless the artifact is specifically called out as volatile. If you have Oadenol's Codex, the rules in the beginning are a start, but they're honestly incredibly weak in the face of any concerted effort; even a weak mortal who channels a Virtue could break pretty much any artifact that isn't metal or stone, and even many of those tougher artifacts, too.

For 4, my problem is that it doesn't say this damage is unsoakable or anything, so it still seems like almost anything will be able to soak it no problem anyway. I might just be misreading this though.

Lots of magical things, yeah. Mortals (and horses) tend to get chewed up. But, really, the anima flux rules are in serious need of revision. I'd suggest remodeling it as a form of environmental damage (Exalted, p. 131) with a recurrence no more often than once per action.

Additionally, on that note: When an effect applies dice of damage (such as this, in fact) does it mean rolling a die to determine successes and therefore how much damage or does it just mean directly apply levels?

It just straight up does damage, without a roll to hit (and no extra damage dice from a successful hit). It's not a standard attack, so there's no dodging or blocking anyway unless you use a perfect defense like Heavenly Guardian Defense.

Similarly, what about things like Bracers adding dodge dice? How is that meant to be dealt with?

It's common for people to simply add the extra dice to the dice pool for calculating the DV, instead of rolling dice every time the wearer is attacked.

 

[Kami-Kaze]

Thanks very much for all the answers! (And dang, i'd forgotten about the minimum damage rules.)


...actually, on that note, i'll just confirm that, however, minimum damage rules won't cause the anima flux to end up doing (Essence) damage, right? Still only the 1L?

 

[wordman]

Second' date=' just how common are Dragonblooded?[/quote']
We had a mostly pointless discussion about this around four years ago. It contains the (at least up until that point) references to all the contradictory "facts" about the DB population. The basic gist of the whole thing is that you are pretty much better off just saying "fuck it, there are X thousand dragonblooded" instead trying to match the books or being "realistic". (Generally speaking, this is pretty good advice in most things Exalted, as White Wolf historically hasn't placed much value on continuity editing. Just make sure you and your players on on the same page for the things they care about.)

 

[Kami-Kaze]

Oh hey, two minor-ish questions.


First, mortal Immaculate monks; are they able to practice any kind of martial arts style (like the terrestrial martial arts I guess?) or are they just limited to natural attacks and having a lot of dots in MA?


Second, the Immaculate Dragons. I know there are the five elemental dragons, but I also see mention of what appear to be some ancient Exalts of yore (Mela, Pasiap, Hesiesh, Sextes and Daana'd) ... or they might be said elemental dragons. It's a bit confusing because I see mention of them Exalting in life in the DB splatbook, which suggests they were ancient super-DB or something, but I also see stuff that makes them look more like they're the elemental dragons, i.e. actual elementals. Which is it, and why does it seem kind of conflicting?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Mortal Immaculates, if they are Enlightened, can learn Terrestrial Martial Arts, as can any other Enlightened Mortal. However, only Five Dragon Style is considered acceptable for such, all other styles are considered heretical for a mortal Immaculate monk to learn. Many mortal monks also know a moderate amount of Thaumaturgy, particularly the Art of Warding and Exorcism and the Art of Spirit Beckoning as well as the Art of Geomancy, the latter of which includes the method through which most mortal Immaculates gain Enlightenment. Specifically by practicing the Essence Enlightenment Sutra ritual.

 

[Kami-Kaze]

Okay, i'm derp I know, but how does a mortal Monk get enlightened? Or, at least, can you advise which book it's in? I know there's Enlightening-keyword charms for DBs to learn CMA, but I'm not sure how mortals get to that kind of stage.


(I'm asking because being able to give opponents who are mortal and not 'an armoured mook who will be instantly bisected' would at least add some variety to non-exalted opposition.)

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Mortal Immaculates' date=' if they are Enlightened, can learn Terrestrial Martial Arts, as can any other Enlightened Mortal. However, only Five Dragon Style is considered acceptable for such, all other styles are considered heretical for a mortal Immaculate monk to learn. Many mortal monks also know a moderate amount of Thaumaturgy, particularly the Art of Warding and Exorcism and the Art of Spirit Beckoning as well as the Art of Geomancy, the latter of which includes the method through which most mortal Immaculates gain Enlightenment. Specifically by practicing the Essence Enlightenment Sutra ritual.[/quote']
See the thaumaturgical ritual mentioned in my last post, Essence Enlightenment Sutra? That's how. It's fond on page 139 of Oadenol's Codex. It's a safe version of Essential River Channeling, found in Scroll of the Monk. Where Essential River Channeling grants access to one's essence in a single day, at the risk of serious injury, death and/or Wyld Mutation, Essence Enlightenment Sutra takes 5 years. Scroll of the Monk lists other methods for a mortal becoming an Enlightened Mortal as well, however the standard method for the Immaculate Order is the Essence Enlightenment Sutra, and some methods, such as gaining such from a God or Celestial Exalt would certainly be considered heretical. Essential River Channeling likely isn't exactly heretical, but it is very dangerous, and unlikely to be utilized by a faithful and sane Immaculate. After all, most people aren't interested in risking death by Aggravated damage and the possibility of significant Wyld mutation if you survive. Admittedly, that ritual does have methods to reduce the difficulty significantly, when used by an already Enlightened caster on another they can reduce the difficulty by the caster's Essence rating, which...can get it from 5 to 2 in the hands of the greatest of Enlightened Mortals.


Enlightened Mortals can reach a maximum Essence of 3, and require a 3 Essence and 5 Martial Arts to learn Terrestrial Martial Arts. They are also capable of learning EITHER Shadowlands Circle Necromancy or Terrestrial Circle Sorcery, if they have an Essence of 3 and Occult of 5, though both would be considered heretical for an Immaculate mortal monk. Enlightened Mortals are NOT considered mortals for the Charm Concept mortal, as essence channeling beings. They gain the ability of any Essence channeler to add their Essence to their Dodge DV and MDV. Their Essence pool is Essence x10, though unless they have the superior merit for such, they must spend a single point of willpower in a scene to access more than Essence x3 of that. Enlightened mortals may attune to artifacts, however they never gain full attunement to magical materials or their magical material bonuses. The rules for Enlightened Mortals are found in Oadenol's Codex, Scroll of the Monk and Scroll of Heroes.

 

[Kami-Kaze]

Huh, neat. Thanks a lot for the information, should help in my game!

 

[Captain Hesperus]

Second' date=' the Immaculate Dragons. I know there are the five elemental dragons, but I also see mention of what appear to be some ancient Exalts of yore (Mela, Pasiap, Hesiesh, Sextes and Daana'd) ... or they might be said elemental dragons. It's a bit confusing because I see mention of them Exalting in life in the DB splatbook, which suggests they were ancient super-DB or something, but I also see stuff that makes them look more like they're the elemental dragons, i.e. actual elementals. Which is it, and why does it seem kind of conflicting?[/quote']
No-one, save perhaps Gaia, Jupiter and the eldest Sidereals (yes Kejak, we're looking at you....), know the truth about the 'Immaculate Dragons'. It's possible that they were something like Second Circle demons to the Elemental Dragons, who are in their turn the Primordial Gaia's souls. Or they were exemplary Dragon-Blooded of beyond legendary Breeding and skill. Or they were Sidereals in Resplendant Destinies sowing the seeds of the future Immaculate Faith in line with the plans for the Usurpation. Or they were simply fabrications created from whole cloth by the Bronze Faction to be figureheads for the Immaculate Faith. Or they were something else entirely up to the ST's own whims.


The choice is yours.


Captain Hesperus

 

[Kami-Kaze]

Okay, some charm questions today!


Some DB charms say they can explicitly be used in combos with charms of other abilites. What is this meaning? Is there some reason why that wouldn't be possible normally? (example: the second athletics charm in the DB splat)


Further, also from the DB book I noticed it, some attacks say that on a successful attack you can apply these supplemental charms. Do you still have to declare them at the beginning of an attack or only if you succeed in the attack first? Additionally, when declaring charms of _any_ type, do you have to decide how many motes you'll spend right at the start or only when the time comes to us them (for example, first or second excellencies; do i say 'for this attack i'll create four dice with first excellency' or do I say 'for this attack i'll use first excellency' and decide mote usage later in the attack?)

 

[wordman]

Second' date=' the Immaculate Dragons. I know there are the five elemental dragons, but I also see mention of what appear to be some ancient Exalts of yore (Mela, Pasiap, Hesiesh, Sextes and Daana'd) ... or they might be said elemental dragons.[/quote']
Previously, I mentioned that White Wolf has never been that concerned with continuity editing. The Immaculate Dragons are a good example. Once upon a time (i.e. 1st Edition) the Elemental Dragons and Immaculate Dragons were different things... until an editing mistake made them the same thing... and then another one may have made them different things again. Or something. Then it all got switched around for 2nd Edition. This old thread tries to make sense of it all.

Some DB charms say they can explicitly be used in combos with charms of other abilites. What is this meaning? Is there some reason why that wouldn't be possible normally? (example: the second athletics charm in the DB splat)

This is only generally possible for reflexive charms. All non-reflexive charms in a combo must be of the same ability (unless the charm says otherwise). There used to be a flow chart demonstrating how this all worked, but it has been lost to the ether.

do you have to decide how many motes you'll spend right at the start or only when the time comes to use them)

Only when the time comes to use them; however, there are some edge cases. Combo rules, for example, force you to activate charms in certain situations (for example, if you activate a combo, you must activate all of its non-reflexive charms).

 

[Kami-Kaze]

Some DB charms say they can explicitly be used in combos with charms of other abilites. What is this meaning? Is there some reason why that wouldn't be possible normally? (example: the second athletics charm in the DB splat)

This is only generally possible for reflexive charms. Non-reflexive charms can only be comboed with other non-reflexive charms of their own ability. There used to be a flow chart demonstrating how this all worked, but it has been lost to the ether.

Oh, huh, I wasn't aware of this. Suspect I need to read the books a little closer. Is there a page number for this, and is this a DB-only thing or does it apply to everyone?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

It's the case for everyone, it's in Core, in the section on combos. Normally, a charm can only enhance the ability its from, unless otherwise stated, similarly, a charm can only be comboed with Supplemental or Simple charms from its own ability, though Reflexive charms can be from anywhere. Similarly, a Supplemental charm must be used with any Simple charms in a combo, while Reflexive charms don't have to be used to benefit such.


For example, I've got a Solar with a combo of Instant Treatment Methodology, Wound Mending Care, the 2nd Medicine Excellency, and Heavenly Guardian Defense. When used, they MUST use Wound Mending Care and Instant Treatment Methodology. The 2nd Medicine excellency MAY be used to enhance such, but doesn't have to, and Heavenly Guardian Defense can be used to protect myself while treating my patient, but again, doesn't have to be. A more advanced combo for the same purpose would also include Surprise Anticipation Method, so I couldn't be surprised while treating the patient. Admittedly, most would find this combo a bit...expensive for actual battle use.

 

[Kami-Kaze]

And yet further questions that I remembered whilst reading the Exalted wiki:


Hungry Ghosts; what's the 'pissed offedness' threshold for the creation of these? What forms of death will _not_ make you rise as one other than, i'd hope, 'natural peaceful death'?


On a similar note, how much death/carnage/etc. needs to happen to create a Shadowland?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Really, that's up to the ST, more than anything. It's not an exact science for either making a hungry ghost or making a Shadowland. Now, in the three days immediately after death the Hun and Po stay together, and you've got a soul around able to talk with people and the like, no matter what...even the happiest soul doesn't pass into Lethe until the 3rd day. For a Shadowland, what's cinematic? What suits your story? Generally, mass slaughter without caring for the dead properly and giving funerary rights and the like is a most likely method, though other acts might serve.

 

[Kami-Kaze]

Wait, so any person who dies will be a ghost for three days? ... murder investigations really must be very easy in Creation. 'Any witnesses to the crime?' 'yes, the victim' 'hot damn'.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Wait' date=' so [u']any[/u] person who dies will be a ghost for three days? ... murder investigations really must be very easy in Creation. 'Any witnesses to the crime?' 'yes, the victim' 'hot damn'.

The higher, hun soul that could answer any questions is still trapped in the body during that time. After that, it falls into the Underworld or goes through Lethe, reincarnating. The feral po soul guards the body during this time, and if it is defiled or has other reason to be displeased with the disposal of the body, it may stick around, but they also tend to fall into the Underworld.


Summoning through thaumaturgy, which is what nearly any investigators in Creation would have to use, does not bind ghosts to the will of the summoner as necromancy does. If you summon a ghost who is a dick and who has powers to be a dick to the living, he can mess with you. If you want to make the summoning easier, you do it in a shadowland, but that means that if you fail you get a bunch of random ghosts instead, which may want to mess with you.


On top of this, people actually tend not to notice things as much as they think they do, and becoming a ghost does not grant you any special clarity on things in this regard. In most situations where the victim of a crime would know who did what, it's unlikely that there weren't other witnesses, possibly better-informed since they weren't currently being murdered or otherwise made to become a ghost. If you're being shived in a dark alley, you probably aren't going to know precisely who did this to you, though you might have your suspicions depending on how many bowls of soup you've peed in lately.


Finally, most people don't really become ghosts. The reason there are as many ghosts as there are is due simply to the volume of people who have died.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

Criminal Investigator: *le raises hun soul* So, you got killed, or at least your body got killed. Tell me who done it?


Victim's Ghost: What's in it for me?


Criminal Investigator: *blink, blink* What?


Victim's Ghost: Sorry, was I talking Old Realm, or something? I said, 'what's in it for me?'


Criminal Investigator: You get to move on, knowing your killer will face the fullest weight of the law.


Victim's Ghost: What if I wasn't planning to move on? My family believe in ancestor worship and they've already started building my shrine. IF I hand over my killer to you, I might end up doing something stupid like reincarnating. And that's a drag.


Criminal Investigator: Alright, what do you want?


Victim's Ghost: I want prayers. From you. Weekly. With a sacrament of blood, stuff's expensive in the Underworld and I like to live comfortably.


Criminal Investigator: Fine, I'll pray to you and sacrifice a chicken every week. NOw will you tell me?


Victim's Ghost: Swear it, on your children's souls.


Criminal Investigator: Say what?


Victim's Ghost: Say that if you fail to pray to me, I can claim your children's souls as compensation.


Criminal Investigator: ..... Screw this, I'm just going to accuse your brother, he's been eyeing your widow up since I first arrived to sort this thing out.....


Captain Hesperus

 

[Kami-Kaze]

Okay, morestuffs, this time? Social combat (oh boy oh boy oh boy)!


Main question is just about UMI. Namely, the fact that characters apparently know UMI is being used on them. How ... how does this work? 'oh man, that guy made an incredible speech! On the other hand i could also feel him shoving happy thoughts into my brain as he did it so i'm somewhat disbelieving that it was actually as good as I remember'? That seems somewhat counter-productive unless people in Creation really don't mind invasive memory and perception alteration whenever their liege talks to them.


Additionally, what is with all the social combat fixes I see? Is social combat really that bad?

 

[wordman]

Additionally' date=' what is with all the social combat fixes I see? Is social combat really that bad?[/quote']
When you are deciding how you want to handle social mechanics, you need answers to two questions:


1) What do I want my social mechanics to accomplish?


2) Do these social mechanics accomplish that?


Clearly the canon social combat rules do something. Many (myself included) think that they don't do what the book says they do. And, even if they did, many (myself included) don't find what the book says they do to be a worthwhile thing to do.


First Edition had no social combat system. This was mostly OK, but failed pretty badly when mind-altering magic was used. I think the social combat system intended to address this, but instead of focussing on the unnatural "I dominate your mind with a charm" stuff, Second Edition sort of overreacted and built something for all social interaction. Seems like overkill to me, but give it a try and see if you like what it does for your game.

 

[chalicier]

Main question is just about UMI. Namely' date=' the fact that characters apparently know UMI is being used on them. How ... how does this work? 'oh man, that guy made an incredible speech! On the other hand i could also feel him shoving happy thoughts into my brain as he did it so i'm somewhat disbelieving that it was actually as good as I remember'? That seems somewhat counter-productive unless people in Creation really don't mind invasive memory and perception alteration whenever their liege talks to them.[/quote']
My general take on this varies a bit depending on the type of UMI.


If it's just a straight Social Combat attack enhanced by some means to become UMI, then I generally rule that people don't automatically know UMI was used unless they spend a point of Willpower to resist it, since the only functional difference in this case between UMI and NMI is the lack of Willpower protecting them for the rest of the scene. If you flex your mental muscles and decide someone's not worth listening to and then their words still keep drilling into your brain, then you can probably guess there's foul play afoot.


If it's a magically induced Emotion effect, the sudden surge of a seemingly unconnected Emotion is pretty obvious (possibly even Obvious). I generally only permit Emotion effects to pass unnoticed via a good stunt (assuming the Charm doesn't specifically state it's unknown to the victim).


If it's a magically induced Illusion effect, then the delusion instilled by it would be completely worthless if they were automatically aware it happened. So I generally rule that Illusions automatically supress the "wait what just happened to my brain" reflex as part of their construction, unless they're specifically Obvious.


If it's a magically induced Compulsion effect, then I generally play it by ear. Mental Invisibility Technique is completely useless if the target automatically knows someone is trying to make them ignore them, while Respect Commanding Attitude is kind of difficult to ignore. As a result, I generally follow the usual rules for NMI-led compulsions - the target goes along with it unless they have a good reason not to (for example, a driving Motivation).


And finally, the description of Servitude specifically states that Servitude effect make the target believe the relevant cause or person is worth following. That doesn't fit with them being aware it's being used, does it? So I generally rule they're unaware, unless the Rule of Cool suggests otherwise (eg an Abyssal's mind-slaves being horribly aware that they're brainwashed but not being able to do anything about it).


With all of the above, I generally err in favour of Stunts, and if anyone spends Willpower to resist any kind of UMI they should automatically become aware of it unless the Charm specifically states otherwise.