Min-Maxing Characters

[Sherwood]

One option is to house rule a difference in the points to refect the age of the character.  For every dot you sacrifice from your physical stats, you get, say, three dots of abilities.  This is not a perfect fix, since in the 1e players guide there are flaws of reduced attributes.

 

[Chaka]

So' date=' why don't you use the [b']Experience[/b] and Knowledge backgrounds to remedy this discrepancy?
They're in the 1E Player's Guide under the Thaumaturge rules.


I use them for players in my games, if they have a good enough background to justify it (usually a page per decade).

because all my books are 2nd ed.

 

[Gtroc]

for older characters I would say focus more on mental and social leaving physical for last(representing you slowed down with age. then just pu the skill point where you need them. you start adding extra skill points for someone playing an old guy, and every one will do it. Exalted: the Geriatric Edition. that would be bad, lunars all gumming their prey, solars waiving there daiklaves at the young whippersnappers on the lawn, etc. :wink:

 

[Ker'ion]

So' date=' why don't you use the [b']Experience[/b] and Knowledge backgrounds to remedy this discrepancy?
They're in the 1E Player's Guide under the Thaumaturge rules.


I use them for players in my games, if they have a good enough background to justify it (usually a page per decade).

because all my books are 2nd ed.

Zat SUCKS!
The backgrounds are pretty much the same, with one difference.  Knowledge relates to magical stuff only and Experience relates to non-magical stuff only.


>Level 1 gives you an extra 8 Freebies


>Level 2 gives you an extra 14 Freebies


>Level 3 gives you an extra 20 Freebies and ups your max Flaws to 15 points


>Level 4 gives you an extra 26 Freebies and ups your max Flaws to 15 points


>Level 5 gives you an extra 32 Freebies and ups your max Flaws to 20 points

 

[Shicato]

I have to say,  I don't have too much of a problem with min maxing as long as the player roleplays well, and given the power level of Exalted, I often find that there is always scope for putting dots in areas outside of your specialisation.  I will often warn players ahead of time if I'm going to be running a game that is heavily based on a particular area and expect them to build their characters to match.  I will also look at what each character wants to do/how each player wants their character to look cool and make efforts to work that into the story.


As long as the game doesn't become X and the Xettes adn each player, not necessarily character is getting what they want out of the game, I'm happy.


While I wouldn't mind someone building a combat twink, I would really not be happy with someone having this kind of conversation


"Sorry about the minor rant, but this was prompted by a conversation with the min-max player. I noticed the massive imbalance of his xp and asked him about it, pointing out how my character was much more balanced concerning xp spending. His response was "Thats how you're supposed to do it. You shouldn't have wasted the xp on stuff outside of your role in the group." I was pissed to say the least. How can someone tell me that I'm doing something wrong in a game (ie intended to be relaxing and fun) that I introduced them to?" from Captain Indigo


Both of you are commiting the sin of Telling Someone Else How To Play Their Character.  It's down to the ST to ensure that having a combat twink in the party doesn't ruin the game for the non combat players.

 

[Gtroc]

Both of you are commiting the sin of Telling Someone Else How To Play Their Character.

Testify!

 

[Malekith]

I find that people min/max in life all the time. As you get older and more experienced, you become more balanced [at least in theory =P]

 

[Moonsilver]

Somehow I missed a few posts on the end of the first page:


This is my first Exalted game Captain, I am making sure Sorcery is this amazing power that makes even my Exalted players go “Wow!â€

 

[Jukashi]

I don’t think Sol or Lunar (the only two I use) would Exalt an Appearance one mortal, unless they boosted him to two. Remember the anime influence in the game, the bits in the text like “and look good doing it!â€

 

[Moonsilver]

So are there any Solars or Lunars shown as even Appearance 2, never mind one? Dace looks like a 3 to me, might scrape in as a 2 though. If you can find one who has Appearance 1, I will be astonished.


I totally agree not all anime characters look good, but heroes and heroines always do, and that’s what Exalted are. Abyssal’s (I know very little about Yozi 'exalted') who have a good reason to have Appearance zero characteristics are actually gothic chic. I see nothing wrong with this, but it is a theme of the game.

 

[Haku1]

I've always seen Dace as a 2, ditto with Panther. Ordinary, just got the muscles.  


And I know there is one ugly Zenith, whose a wyld mutant, ditto with the frog girl from caste book night.

 

[Moonsilver]

I am astonished!

 

[Jukashi]

I fear that you have been decieved by Hollywood Homeliness and Anime Smoothness. To wit: In live action, it's hard to portray ugly characters, because there aren't that many suitable ugly actors around; usually they just stick on some glasses and messy hair to make them ugly in comparison to all the other, stunning characters (who, in real life, would be merely plain). If you doubt me, go have a look; find some "ugly" characters and imagine what they'd be like with some good clothes and an hour or so in front of a mirror. I think you'll find most of them aren't really ugly at all.


Meanwhile, in anime and, pretty much, any drawn medium, there's the trouble that the people are, by nature, simplified; thus, you don't see the tiny blemishes and irregularities that, if they were photorealistic, would make them less attractive. When was the last time you saw a cartoon character with a pimple, eh?


Of course, this being Exalted, and therefore having a bigger, impressive feel, the result of this is not "people in Exalted are not as pretty as the art makes them out to be", but rather that "people in Exalted are just prettier overall than real people, and people with Appearance 2 would be considered above-average in real life".


After all, that seems the way it works with most characters...

 

[Dracogryff]

Arianna is a mighty 2 Appearance (at least officially, check the Twilight book)...and Udon finally realized that for 2E...you'll note she's a lot uglier in 2E drawings than 1E ones, what with the scar on her face and such. Dace and Pather are actually 3s, as is Harmonious Jade, who I'd never thought of as overly attractive (or as prettier than the 1E pics show Arianna, anyhow). *shrugs* Strength of Many on the 1E book is ugly as sin...I'd rate him a 1 Appearance...but that's my opinion, and he has been drawn slightly better in 2E. He still wouldn't do better than a 2 if I'm being generous. Red Jaws ain't pretty either, rating probably a 2 Appearance at best as well.


Edit: It also just occured to me that it's a lot harder to draw an ugly person than a pretty one. At least I have an easier time doing so. People also don't much care for drawing ugly things. Art isn't supposed to be ugly. So...you don't see it drawn much. That and people don't like to play ugly people for the most part, unless it's specifically an aspect of the character type (like a Nosferatu in OWoD or Abyssals, though I see most people take the inhumanly pretty route with them).


I admit that I never play a character with less than Appearance 2 (and even one with a 6, effectively 9 if they're looking sexy), personally, but I don't see where I have to insist others do the same. If part of the concept is ugly, I don't see why it can't be justified. Ma-Ha Suchi used to be beautiful, after all...and now he's a twisted, deformed, mad goat-wolf.

 

[Moonsilver]

The bit that gave it away for me was "The beautiful assassin Harmonious Jade".


But point taken there are App 1 Solars out there. Would not Ma-Ha Suchi still look normal in his human forms though?

 

[Jukashi]

No.


He's on the border of chimerism, there. He'd still probably have some horns or hooves or something, plus some scars, the tattoos of course, and not to mention he'd still have that crazy expression on his face.

 

[fhgwdads05]

Don't forget the voice that rings like a tiny silver bell.

 

[Balota]

Just my two cents,


I min/max to a degree like everyone else does trying to get the most bang for my buck. But at the same time what you do is you force your players to play the stats.


I have a really strong really fast lunar who is also wise but he is stupid. He will state the blatently obvious for those who are looking at the details to finely. He is child like in his overall personallity, but can become this sage of basic wisdom to ground the rest of the party.


Street smarts and book smarts being diffrent things.


So they want to drop a one in something or they want to do something crazy make sure they realize you will be watchin thier rp and if they are not doing what thier stats say then they will be changed.

 

[Arthur]

that crazy expression on his face.

Which is still awesomely cool  :twisted:

 

[Moonsilver]

Ma-Ha Suchi has borderline Chimerism? Where is he detailed, I may bring him in at some stage, had not realised this.

 

[Persell]

I find I have to put real work into making an Exalt feel actually exceptional at anything.  I tend to spread my points out a lot, to the point where a 'specialist' has about 3 dots in something and maybe more than 1 charm.


I anti-mix/max.


Makes it difficult to keep up with anyone who made a true power to be reckoned with.

 

[Vanman]

Ma-Ha Suchi has borderline Chimerism? Where is he detailed, I may bring him in at some stage, had not realised this.

Try p. 53 of the Lunar book. He has a whole section devoted to him.

 

[Cynis Filthist]

I find I have to put real work into making an Exalt feel actually exceptional at anything.  I tend to spread my points out a lot, to the point where a 'specialist' has about 3 dots in something and maybe more than 1 charm.
I anti-mix/max.


Makes it difficult to keep up with anyone who made a true power to be reckoned with.

I am quite the same way, for various other reasons because i always find it fun when my character can get BETTER at the things hes good at beyond needing to be over Essence 5.

 

[Ker'ion]

I tend to min/max engineer characters.


So what if the Dawn Caste can slay a thousand demons in one blow, I can make a cannon to do that and strap it on my X-91 attack drone that does 500mph and can be remotely controlled from anywhere in Creation.


Even if it takes me a century to build it, I can do it.

 

[Persell]

Just wondering what other people's impressions are on this subject.
I personally find it to be a serious problem. I enjoy playing characters that are focused on their area of expertise while still being well rounded. Just because I'm playing a soldier doesn't mean I can't have some points in Linguistics, or even a few charms in Larceny/Stealth. A social character can still have a fairly impressive Occult score and not suffer in his niche. In my Solar's game, Indigo has the highest Stealth or Acrobatics rating of the group, and he's primarily a Social Combat character.


It also grates on me to be in a game where one of the other player's has seriously min-maxed his character. Its hard to plan a story from the ST side if one player has two or three times as much combat ability as the rest of the group. (Above mentioned Solars game, one of the players has spent 16xp on abilities outside of MA or Dodge...we've each got roughly 150-180xp)


Sorry about the minor rant, but this was prompted by a conversation with the min-max player. I noticed the massive imbalance of his xp and asked him about it, pointing out how my character was much more balanced concerning xp spending. His response was "Thats how you're supposed to do it. You shouldn't have wasted the xp on stuff outside of your role in the group." I was pissed to say the least. How can someone tell me that I'm doing something wrong in a game (ie intended to be relaxing and fun) that I introduced them to?


Besides how people feel about it, how do STs handle the issue in their games? Do you do what I do, which is avoid the min-maxer's area of focus? This seems kinda cruel because the player did earn the xp and this punishes them too much.


Or do you try to very overtly get the "You need to play at least marginally balanced characters" idea across? Maybe have the Big Bad engage the combat twink in social combat, have them look directly into their eyes and say "Go fuck yourself with your diaklave" and watch as the other player realizes with horror they've never spent a single point of xp on Integrity in a somewhat Social focused game?


okay...rant really over this time...Thoughts?

You do realize that you are saying that he can't tell you that you play it wrong while asking us for a justification to tell him that he is playing it wrong? Yes?


Good. Just checking.