Merging Melee and Martial Arts

[Josh the Aspie]

Greetings and salutations out there to all of you fine folks.


I have been reading Jukashi's fine webcomic and also these forums for quite some time, and as such, now that my DM and I considering a large change to the rules structure of the game, I thought I would come here to see if there is any feedback, or any major resulting concerns that would need to be taken into account.


This likely isn't the first time you've heard of this idea, so I apologize if this is just rehashing something you've already read elsewhere, but I didn't see any existing conversations on the topic here.


As the thread title says, we have decided to merge the abilities of Martial Arts and Melee.


The reasons for this are manifold. First of all, the term "Martial Arts" actually applies to any art that is primarily of martial application. In other words, punching, kicking, elbow strikes, grappling, the use of a sword, the use of a bow, the use of a gun, strategy inspired by Sun Tzu, redirection of an opponents force (whether in personal or large scale combat), and the sorcery spell Death of Obsidian Butteflies are all covered under the heading of "Martial Arts".


So what should we call the martial arts ability? "Brawling?" No, for has far more styles and refinements than that. "Unarmed combat"? No, for several weapons can be wielded using martial arts, even if not form weapons.


But for some strange reason, the staff is not a "martial arts weapon", nor is the club/baton, nor is the strait sword, nor is the short sword, nor the curved sword, nor the spear, nor the polearm, all of which are used by many eastern 'martial arts styles' in a mix with unarmed strikes. Nor is the axe, nor the hammer, which along with many of the weapons listed above has long been used mixed in with unarmed strikes in western martial arts as well.


But the martial arts weapon category is already the largest in the game, and if we add these weapons too it, there's really no more reason to ever use the melee ability. Wouldn't it be simpler just merge the two abilities together and be done with it!?! Yes. And that is the reason for this rule and thread.


But what should we call it? Well, we've already established that the term "Martial Arts" is an incredibly broad name. Perhaps something to do with the range? All of these weapons are used in melee range so why not... Melee? It's the name of one of the abilities in the merge already anyway.


Mechanics:


First, Melee and Martial Arts are now the same ability. Any reference to one of these abilities is now a reference to the ability "Melee". Any charms that are identical between the two trees for a given exalt type are now merged. The ability of water types to treat all martial arts styles as in-aspect is now explicitly a part of their anima.





Implication:


Any requirements for either ability are met by "Melee" as are any prerequisites.


There is now no reason for the martial arts tag, only the natural weapon tag.


There is now only one set of excellency charms for the ability as well.


Form weapons are still form weapons, so if a charm only works with unarmed or certain weapons, it still only works with those. Style weapons for the five elemental dragon styles still provide their unique benefits for dragonblooded.


You no longer need to enlighten a peasant mortal and give him training from a supernatural force to have him attack with a flurry from a staff and unarmed blows using the same 1-dot ability all commoners already have. The staff is a peasant weapon, peasants should be able to use it.





Known Issues:


Dawn Castes have one less favored ability, as the two abilities have merged. This merely highlights their existing disadvantage, but it slightly increases the xp discount ability of other exalt types, creating a deeper -relative- disadvantage for them. What should they receive in return? Resistance? Dodge?


I am told that despite neither of them actually having been martial arts weapons before, the "Sword" and "Spear" represent different constellations for Sidreal astrology, which represent these different abilities. I have never played a sidreal, I never plan to play a Sidreal, no one I have made plans to game with ever plans to play one, and the DM wants to avoid them for the most part, except maybe as martial arts tutors if we can get into that. Still, it's good to take things into account. Help?

 

[Kyeudo]

While I agree that the staff should be a default martial arts weapon, all of the weapons that you mention are form weapons for one or more styles of supernatural martial arts.

 

[Josh the Aspie]

I agree that it is good that there are styles that allow these weapons as form weapons. However to me that seems like a patch, rather than how the rules should work.


These are all also form weapons for several styles of mundane martial arts.


Take a thorough study of Kung Fu, which would be covered by a martial arts rating of 3, 5 if you are a master of it.


You now know how to use sticks/batons, nunchuks, sais, staves, spears, strait swords, slashing swords, chain-darts, fighting gloves (the padded kind), and war fans. And that's just at my local dojo. Other such form weapons include the tonfa, the short sword, the dagger, maces, and giant heavy staves with either huge weights on the end or made out of metal the entire length, which would use tetsubo or maul stats.


And that's just one style group of mortal martial arts.


To completely replace martial arts with these form weapons you need to learn up to a form charm in a supernatural martial art, or get some melee skill prerequisites.


And nearly all surviving or documented martial arts, both eastern and weastern, liberally mix armed and unarmed strikes when appropriate. German combat manuals illustrate a guy stabbing his opponent with his sword, and then kicking him in the face.


I don't see why you would need to enlighten a mortal just to let him use a spear or sword as a martial arts weapon. Or why a hero like a Solar or a Lunar would have to learn supernatural martial arts to learn to use weapons in an ancient style group that is available in the real world,


Edit: Added a couple of weapons to the list.

 

[uteck]

I would not worry about Dawn losing a favored ability since the two were almost mutually exclusive. You were either a melee or martial artist, but could not devote the XP to both charm trees and it will still be that way.


If you really want them to share a favored ability then I would say Presence since they are supposed to be generals.

 

[Lord Kamina]

I think merging abilities is dumb.


For the most part, it leads to a en enormous confusion, by definition you need to CREATE a new ability (with all that entails) or you are inevitably giving AT LEAST one caste the short end of the stick...


Finally, it doesn't matter if "Martial Arts" can use many weapons... in the end, it's all about flavor.


For example, I have a character who's a staff martial artist... I wanted to use a staff martial arts style and the ST didn't allow it... in the end, I took Solar Melee and it's irrelevant. My charms will be different but it's the descriptions and stunts that say how the character actually fights...


In the setting, the character doesn't really know if he's using "Melee" or "Martial Arts", those are just meta-terms for the system.


Plus, I think already the Dawn Solution fixes the problems you state to a certain degree.


P.S. I don't understand why people KEEP SAYING "Well, in the real world, for you to use form weapons..." or, "In my dojo..."


EXALTED IS A G A M E.


If it's supposed to mimic anything; TRUST me, it's not the real world.

 

[chalicier]

You mean they don't teach the Five Elemental Dragon Styles in your local dojo? Your Sifu is clearly weak in the Immaculate Blood. Mine shattered an entire mountainside once.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Not to mention your reasoning is faulty...


Step 1: "Why the hell is Staff not a Martial Arts Weapon"


Normal person response a: Take Violet Bier of Sorrows Style.


Normal person response b: Tag the M tag onto the Staff.


Normal person response c: Well, I'll just use it with the Melee tree that is more powerful either way, I guess...


Your response: Let's break the system by destroying the ability spread, necessitating entire new charm trees...


And okay, the Dawn have one less favored ability... but that doesn't hurt them too much (and certainly not with the Dawn solution), but... what about Dragon Blooded, for example?


I think this all just stems from wrong reasoning and not having read the Dawn solution.

 

[cyl]

Well I agree that the distinction Melee / MA is rather unjustifiable.


On one hand you have: I can hit people with stuff


And on the other: I can punche people in the nose, and I can also hit them with stuff


It was perhaps worst in 1e with Melee / Brawl / MA, but in the hand you can use Melee with most MA weapons.


It's kinda redundant and useless... but I never found a useful substitute aiblity that could apply to the whole game and the different types of exalts without screwing everything.


The only decent fix is to do the opposite, consider most MA weapons as melee weapon and put a MA tag (can also be used with Martial Arts) on them except for the very few MA only weapons who would stay pure MA weapons.

 

[uteck]

You just have to be willing to break the game paradigm of 3/5/many, and be willing to accept the fact that for every 'fix' proposed something else in the game, either mechanics or setting, breaks. Is the breakage from your merging Melee and MA worse then letting it alone? I don't think so. Abilities are just speed bumps in Exalted as the main expense and effort is in the charm trees.


And if you are worried about the number of abilities being out of balance you can merge a few more so things are in groups of 4. A number of abilities are similar and almost interchangeable, so take your pick; Lore and Linguistics (or Occult), Presence and Performance, Larceny and Stealth, Athletics and Dodge, Ride and Survival, Archery and Thrown (or Thrown and Athletics, or even Dodge, Thrown, and Athletics into one ability).


You make the groupings different for Solars, Dragon-Blooded, Sidereals, ect.., just to add more difference to the various exalts and because each groups them different. After all the game is not about abilities, but about the charms used.

 

[Josh the Aspie]

I plan to reply to each person's post individually with quotes to avoid confusing who it is I'm replying to. I hope that's kosher on this board. As an additional note, it looks like my DM is not planning on altering who has in-aspect/caste access to which charm trees. This would actually minimize any shift in power balance, and is less of an initial change, seems like a good test.


I've edited the original post to remove some bits were apparently not using yet in the game I'm currently playing.


The main reason I brought this here is in the hopes that if there were any hidden pitfalls you fine folks could see, we'd find them early, and I could bring things to my DM early, rather than him discovering them late. Thank you for all of your input thus far.

 

[Josh the Aspie]

I think merging abilities is dumb.

You're free to think that. I don't.

For the most part, it leads to a en enormous confusion, by definition you need to CREATE a new ability (with all that entails) or you are inevitably giving AT LEAST one caste the short end of the stick...

I do not see how this is established.

Finally, it doesn't matter if "Martial Arts" can use many weapons... in the end, it's all about flavor.


For example, I have a character who's a staff martial artist... I wanted to use a staff martial arts style and the ST didn't allow it... in the end, I took Solar Melee and it's irrelevant. My charms will be different but it's the descriptions and stunts that say how the character actually fights...


In the setting, the character doesn't really know if he's using "Melee" or "Martial Arts", those are just meta-terms for the system.


Plus, I think already the Dawn Solution fixes the problems you state to a certain degree.

So what it seems to me like you're saying is that you acknowledge a problem, and post a solution that you have used for it, which is to roleplay your character as using the martial arts skill, while he's actually using the Melee skill. You pose that they are essentially interchangeable and indistinguishable when using a weapon, and there is no real flavor difference between them. That they are, save for the charm trees and weapons you can access, the exact same skill.


You also pose that the "Dawn Solution" which institutes making it easier to use one weapon skill instead of another with a given charm, and merges some charms is a good step in the direction of fixing it. I agree, as does my DM. In fact, the "Dawn Solution" was actually the nail in the coffin when I convinced him that the abilities should be merged.

P.S. I don't understand why people KEEP SAYING "Well, in the real world, for you to use form weapons..." or, "In my dojo..."


EXALTED IS A G A M E.


If it's supposed to mimic anything; TRUST me, it's not the real world.

Yes and no. In many cases of fantasy or Sci-Fi, one begins with the assumption of similarity to the real world, and then either establishes root/base differences, or justifies differences based on those root differences.


For example, a different origin of the world, and a different base makeup are established base differences for the world of exalted. These are then used to justify a huge number of differences in how the setting works. The differences in seasons, for example.


As a game that involves storytelling (the base system that all white wolf games descend from is even called 'storyteller'), one of the key ingredients is suspension of disbelief, and avoiding breaking that suspension of disbelief. Thus, having abilities work in ways that make sense, at least on the surface, is critical to the construction of any game.


Having the average use of stealth be rolled based on charisma, or the average use of resistance based off of the use of intelligence, for example, would raise some eyebrows, and rightly so.


As such, comparisons of how the use of certain abilities work in the game (especially for mortals) to how they work in the real world is thus a valid comparison, as if there is a large and noticeable difference, this affects suspension of disbelief.


It is much easier to justify why sorcery works the way it does based on "magical creation spirits" as opposed to martial artists being able to use sticks, but not club-batons as "martial arts weapons."


For those who have not studied eastern and western martial arts, this may not be any problem what so ever. For me, this creates a problem with suspension of disbelief.

Not to mention your reasoning is faulty...
Step 1: "Why the hell is Staff not a Martial Arts Weapon"


(snip)

If that was my reasoning, I'd agree with you that it is faulty. However you seem to be fixating on the staff, and then accusing me of doing so. I used it as a single example.

And okay, the Dawn have one less favored ability... but that doesn't hurt them too much (and certainly not with the Dawn solution), but... what about Dragon Blooded, for example?


I think this all just stems from wrong reasoning and not having read the Dawn solution.

Well no Dragonblooded looses an ability at all. But then again, neither, really, do the dawn castes. As I said, it just highlights their problem.

 

[Josh the Aspie]

Well I agree that the distinction Melee / MA is rather unjustifiable.
On one hand you have: I can hit people with stuff


And on the other: I can punche people in the nose, and I can also hit them with stuff


It was perhaps worst in 1e with Melee / Brawl / MA, but in the hand you can use Melee with most MA weapons.


It's kinda redundant and useless... but I never found a useful substitute aiblity that could apply to the whole game and the different types of exalts without screwing everything.


The only decent fix is to do the opposite, consider most MA weapons as melee weapon and put a MA tag (can also be used with Martial Arts) on them except for the very few MA only weapons who would stay pure MA weapons.

This is far closer to my own reasoning. In my opinion, there are two division points that make sense.


At the first division point, Melee is used for weapons. Period. "Unarmed" is used when you don't use weapons. Period. This removes "useless" redundancy as you put it. I'm generally fine with that separation. However, due to the extensive use of weapons in just about any style that includes unamed combat, it seems odd to make someone learn two abilities to learn one basic skill, while you can use "Ride" for horses, carts, Yeddim Howda, and personal-sized airships. O.o


The other seems to acknowledge that a fist, a foot, or an elbow is just a weapon we're born with, and have there be no separation between these skills.


I prefer the second one. It just seems to be more natural and intuitive to me.

 

[Josh the Aspie]

You just have to be willing to break the game paradigm of 3/5/many, and be willing to accept the fact that for every 'fix' proposed something else in the game, either mechanics or setting, breaks. Is the breakage from your merging Melee and MA worse then letting it alone? I don't think so. Abilities are just speed bumps in Exalted as the main expense and effort is in the charm trees.
And if you are worried about the number of abilities being out of balance you can merge a few more so things are in groups of 4. A number of abilities are similar and almost interchangeable, so take your pick; Lore and Linguistics (or Occult), Presence and Performance, Larceny and Stealth, Athletics and Dodge, Ride and Survival, Archery and Thrown (or Thrown and Athletics, or even Dodge, Thrown, and Athletics into one ability).


You make the groupings different for Solars, Dragon-Blooded, Sidereals, ect.., just to add more difference to the various exalts and because each groups them different. After all the game is not about abilities, but about the charms used.

Well given that the number paradigm seems pre-broken right out of the box, I have no problem with the paradigm being broken. I see no change. And I have little problem with replication of abilities between castes.


Another idea for the Dawns is to just throw them an extra favored ability, instead of giving them one standard. That, combined with the above and the "Dawn Fix" should put them at about par. If this feels anti-thematic, just add the requirement that it must be used on an ability that can be used in combat or mass combat without charms. I think most Dawns will wind up picking at least one of dodge, resistance, and presence anyway.


Of course the dawns aren't exactly my focus in this discussion, but I did know from reading these boards about the issue with them.


I'm curious, though, as to why no one has mentioned the Sidreal Astrology bit.

 

[Persell]

So...how do people fight unarmed now? Just throwing Martial Arts and Melee together is a horrible idea.


EDIT: Also, by your reasoning you should merge them into Martial Arts, not Melee. And by "them" I mean all 5 of the Dawns abilities.

 

[Lord Kamina]

It seems to me like instead of taking the simple solution (houseruling weapons to use melee unless explicitly state otherwise), you decided to change the entire game system.

 

[Josh the Aspie]

So...how do people fight unarmed now? Just throwing Martial Arts and Melee together is a horrible idea.
EDIT: Also, by your reasoning you should merge them into Martial Arts, not Melee. And by "them" I mean all 5 of the Dawns abilities.

The same way that they always have.


Martial Arts -> Melee. Melee -> Melee. So they use the ability Melee. It's not that difficult a concept.


And no, that is not my reasoning. My full reasoning would be a several page long treatise, and rather than boring people with a useless wall of text filled with minutia that people won't care about I have only typed a summary, under the general proposition that if some point of my reasoning is unclear, or is not supported to the eye of another, they will ask for clarification, or challenge me on a specific point.


I presume that you are not a magical mind reader who knows my mind better than I do. I also presume that since I have not typed up such a treatise anywhere, you have not read it. So rather than presuming to tell me what my reasoning inexorably leads too, why not actually ask about my reasoning, or ask for a specific point of clarification?


my reasoning says that "Martial Arts" is a stupidly vague name in this case, and that for it to really cover what it says it covers, we'd have to merge all of the above, dodge, resistance, and anything dealing with military intelligence into the ability. I view that as an incredibly bad idea.


My reasoning is that, you either need a very clear point of separation, or no point of separation at all.

 

[Josh the Aspie]

It seems to me like instead of taking the simple solution (houseruling weapons to use melee unless explicitly state otherwise)' date=' you decided to change the entire game system.[/quote']
The two rules statements are about as simple to institute, and the effects are just as far reaching in either case.


"Weapons that are not a part of the body use melee. Period. Weapons that are a part of the body use Unarmed. Period." Very simple, but with far reaching implications, especially as the game has a fire style dragonblood who prefers short swords. This creates a large number of problems, and would make a current player upset.


"Melee and Martial Arts are now the same ability. Any reference to one of these abilities is now a reference to the ability "Melee". Any charms that are identical between the two trees for a given exalt type are now merged. The ability of water types to treat all martial arts styles as in-aspect is now explicitly a part of their anima."


Also a simple rules change with far reaching implications.


-----


Now, you've expressed that it changes the game to a large degree. You've expressed that you think I have flawed reasoning and an abnormal thinking process. You've expressed that this is a bad idea.


The first I agree with, and already knew. The second and third I disagree with.


If you can point out implications of this rule change of which I am not obviously aware, or suggest small alterations to the rule, or how to handle Sidreal astrology, a known issue my DM brought up, I would welcome them. I would also welcome new perspective or facts relating to your existing opinion.


Otherwise, I ask you to kindly stop littering the thread by repeating the same opinion multiple times. Especially since my DM has already decided to institute this rule on a trial basis, and repetitions of your already noted opinion do nothing but to raise ire, and reduce the chances of intelligent discussion of the points I requested help with in the first place.

 

[wordman]

Back when I did my horrendous ability redesign, I combined Melee and Martial Arts as you suggest. Taking a hint from the way 1E Brawl was merged into Martial Arts, I considered the Melee charm trees to be, under my new system, exalt specific martial art style trees, similar to how, say, Solar Hero Style used to be the 1E Brawl tree.


This has some non-obvious and serious consequences. First, the resulting "Solar Melee" style is significantly more "complete", wide ranging, and powerful than most celestial styles. It is, however, also a lot larger (i.e requires more xp to learn) which compensates a bit. You can compensate a bit more by adding some more restrictive weapon choices (e.g. "when you first learn this style, you must choose a single weapon type as form weapon", or something). The new style also lacks a distinct pinnacle style and form, which can be tinkered around.


Worse that this, though, is that these new "Solar Melee", "Sidereal Melee" and "Terrestrial Melee" martial arts styles can now be freely comboed with other martial arts styles (since that is how martial arts works). And this is more significant than it first appears, particularly for sidereals. If you go this route, I'd highly recommend that you add some kind of "cannot be comboed with martial arts charms from other styles" rider to all non-reflexive, combo-able (former) Melee charms.

 

[Josh the Aspie]

Wordman:


It was actually not my intent to consider the melee charm trees "martial arts styles" any more than the bow-tree or the thrown tree are. I am not sure what my DM's intent in this area is. I will bring your concerns to him.


It -was- however, my intent that people be able to put combos from the "Melee" and "Martial Arts" charm tree in the same action, as they are now the same ability, and so there should be no problem with this under a native reading of the rule with only the stated rule change, though, again, I'd need to bring this up with my DM specifically. He's the DM, and I am not. I'm merely trying to do some leg-work to reduce his work load on this effort, and help him out.


You seem to me to be saying that allowing the use of both charm trees on a single action creates a problem. Is this so? Could you elaborate on the problems that this caused you in the past?


Also, I thank you for your intelligent and helpful contribution to this discussion.

 

[wordman]

You seem to me to be saying that allowing the use of both charm trees on a single action creates a problem. Is this so? Could you elaborate on the problems that this caused you in the past?

Well, if you allow combing of both (especially if you treat the Melee tree as just a set of utility charms), it becomes difficult to anticipate how some published rules will react. As an example, in the hands of a solar, every single martial arts style in existence now gains the ability to combo with Hungry Tiger to count extra successes twice for a single mote. How does, say, Earth Dragon or Tiger style react to that? Does it become broken? Remain the same? Can you tell? How about when you add Fire and Stones Strike to stack damage? How does that mix with, say, Snake Style's ability to ignore armor?


How does Violet Bier or Prismatic Arrangement react when it can be comboed with Smiling at the Damned to make any attack deal aggravated damage?

 

[Revoke]

I prefer the solution of turning martial arts back to brawl (using unarmed attacks, and punching/kicking aids like iron boots and fighting gauntlets) and decoupling martial arts charms from an ability, as in the Kata System.


In any case, I don't much like combining the unarmed ability with unfettered access to artifact weapons. The bloke who chooses to fight unarmed should ideally have some advantage; if Sword King over there can fight just as effectively when he looses his weapon, what's the point?


Something could certainly stand to be done, but I don't think merging melee and martial arts is it.

 

[Josh the Aspie]

Well there are several styles out there with very powerful charms that can be combed together already, but no, I don't know how those work together out of hand. That's why this rule would be an experiment.


After bringing concerns to him listed here, my DM said he'd rather not use this rule.


Instead he and I came up with a new rule instead. It's based in part on the existing feature of how you get an additional language for each dot of linguistics. This allows you to represent a wide variety of mundane martial arts styles blending unarmed and weapon based combat, while also allowing the addition of form weapons.


-----


The M tag which allows a weapon to be used with the Martial Arts ability is hereby removed from all weapons, save those that augment kicks, punches, and other forms of unarmed combat.


These 'brawl enhancement' weapons must be wielded with Martial Arts and cannot be used with Melee.


All weapons have the potential to be wielded with Martial Arts. For each dot of Martial Arts, the character may select a single type of weapon. That character may wield that weapon with Martial Arts. Examples: Chopping Sword, Javelin, Staff.


Additionally, any Martial Arts specialties the character has can be used to open up a category of weapons. Having a +1 specialty in Swords is an example.


Finally, possessing charms of a Martial Arts style gives that style's Form Weapons the same capacity to be wielded with Martial Arts.


Exception: Weapons wielded with Archery and Thrown (not including natural weapons) cannot be wielded with Martial Arts unless a specialty or supernatural style says otherwise. The discipline to mix ranged and melee styles into a seamless style eludes many of the Chosen, to say nothing of mortals.


Exception: Weapons with the A tag (artillery) cannot be used with Martial Arts without a supernatural style. The skill to blend such massive weapons into anything that could be considered a proper Art is the providence of the Chosen alone.


A character capable of wielding a mundane weapon as a Martial Arts weapon can use the artifact version as a Martial Arts weapon as well. In cases where the artifact equivalent is unclear, one will be selected (usually by the player, within reason. A daiklave is not the artifact version of a garrote.)

 

[Lord Kamina]

If you're going with something like that, why not make it the lesser of MA or Essence?


Or are you keeping the "this style can only be used with X" paragraphs?

 

[Josh the Aspie]

If you're going with something like that, why not make it the lesser of MA or Essence?
Or are you keeping the "this style can only be used with X" paragraphs?

We are keeping those paragraphs.


Even under the old system you couldn't use tiger claws with Compassion or Crane style, so you still can't use the tiger claws with charms of those styles under this new rule. And having different weapons be a part of different supernatural styles makes complete stylistic sense.

 

[Revoke]

This still has the issues I mentioned disliking, although a bit more restrictive. You might not find that to be a problem though.

Even under the old system you couldn't use tiger claws with Compassion or Crane style' date=' so you still can't use the tiger claws with charms of those styles under this new rule.[/quote']
Unless I'm mistaken, you can use any martial arts charms with any weapons you may wield with martial arts, for whatever reason. But, only form weapons count as unarmed attacks for the purposes of a martial art's charms. So even if you know Violet Bier of Sorrows, you can't use swords with most Solar Hero charms, because they specify that they supplement unarmed martial arts attacks. But not all charms specify unarmed attacks. I don't have the latest Scroll of Errata handy though, I think it might have something to say about this.