in scroll of the monk(I do not have it with me) there is a terrestrial style using slashing swrods, with multiple end trees. has any one had difficulty with this MA? It seems a bit over powered for a terrestrial style. seriously some of those charms are friggin' nasty. just wondering...
Martial art I cannot remember
- Thread starter Gtroc
- Start date
Ledaal Kajiri
Two Thousand Club
Even Blade Style? It's rather nice, but no more so than, say Five Dragon Style, or Terrestrial Hero when used by a grappler.
Lord Kamina
Not an engineer.
Ledaal Kajiri
Two Thousand Club
Sounds like you're a little too focused on nerfing things. Are Even Blade and Five Dragon solid combat styles? Yes. Both are close combat styles that are relativelly effective. Are they Celestial Styles? No. Neither is as powerful as say, Solar Hero or Violet Bier of Sorrows, or one of the Dragon Paths. Solar Hero is downright sick if someone learns to use the terrain to their advantage with it. Violet Bier of Sorrows, if you aren't nerfing it, is a solid style, more powerful than either. The Dragon Paths certainly outshine either Even Blade or Five Dragon Style. Of Celestial Styles, only Dreaming Pearl Courtesan is less combat effective, and the few Celestial Styles that are similar in power in combat have significant abilities that are useful in other situations. Dreaming Pearl Courtesan's real strength is in Social combat, not physical combat, though it is still rather useful in either.
If useful is retarded, then perhaps you should be playing a different game than Exalted. Terrestrial Martial Arts are supposed to be useful. Are they as strong as Solar or Lunar Charms? No. Are they as strong as Celestial Martial Arts? Again, no. Are they as insane as Sidereal combat charms? Very much so no. Are they a solid way to improve ones abilities, and sometimes useful for even a Celestial Exalt? Yes. And they should be.
If useful is retarded, then perhaps you should be playing a different game than Exalted. Terrestrial Martial Arts are supposed to be useful. Are they as strong as Solar or Lunar Charms? No. Are they as strong as Celestial Martial Arts? Again, no. Are they as insane as Sidereal combat charms? Very much so no. Are they a solid way to improve ones abilities, and sometimes useful for even a Celestial Exalt? Yes. And they should be.
Lord Kamina
Not an engineer.
What the hell are you ranting about?
I'm just saying Five Dragon Style has some really broken charms. Five-Dragon-Force Blow could easily beat Hungry Tiger Technique (A solar melee) charm
Seriously, I love Exalted and its flavor. And I love Martial Arts and their whacky uses and I love Dreaming Pearl Courtesan (And I want to make a NPC character who uses it in a campaign I'm planning)... Now, where does your rant point that I shouldn't play Exalted fit into all this?
fhgwdads05
Junior Member
You realize Five-Dragon-Force Blow is a Simple Charm with the standard Speed and DV penalty associated with such, right?
Hungry Tiger Technique is Supplemental, cheaper, and has lower Mins. Â
One use of any perfect and that FDFB Action is wasted. Â And then the DB gets smashed by the defender's response.
Just wanted to point that out.
Ledaal Kajiri
Two Thousand Club
Indeed. Also, a single charm does not break a style. Take it as a whole, not as each part alone...that's how they balance them.fhgwdads05 said:
My comment to Lord Kamina is more related to this concept of nerfing things. If you're nerfing Violet Bier of Sorrows' Blade of the Battle Maiden to a weaker version of Five Dragon Force Blow...then you're likely nerfing it too. Weakening things all over is not going to result in much of a game at the end of things...and is usually a bad idea. I'll admit my wording was poor, sorry about that.
I also love Dreaming Pearl Courtesan...very fun. Sadly I've only had two PCs use it...though the Lunar in one of my game's Mentor practices it...as well as the Art of Forceful Declaration. Makes for an interesting juxtaposition of styles...
fhgwdads05
Junior Member
BotBM is an excellent Charm, however I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be. Â To make it be at such a broken level one would have to expend a huge amount of Essence and WP. Â I could see any normal, focused Solar Meleeist not being challenged to the extent that a lot of people would like to believe.
Lord Kamina
Not an engineer.
On my side, I actually used BotBM on a battle... We were fighting an army of Ess 2. Awakened mortals... Our Ess. 3 Dawn was getting owned and then I (Ess. 3 Zenith) had to butt-in... "I spend 18 motes and 2 WP, My DV is now 12 and my dice pool 45" At which my party and ST shrieked in horror...
The problem most people have with the charm is that, as they say, "It combines two solars charms in one, and it's two solar charms that per-the-rules, cannot be combined"
-----------------
I really don't like nerfing stuff... But I sorta agree with the ST that a Celestial MA charm should pretty much never be more powerful than a Solar one... And a terrestrial charm should not even come close.
Moonsilver
Member
I can't say I have not already done a bit of rules tweaking, but wholesale changes to Charm trees etc can cause problems.
But if your GM was happy with it then fine.
But if your GM was happy with it then fine.
Haku1
Ze Hamster of Lurkdom
An essence 3 dawn getting beat up by essence 2 mortals... 
Just what the hell was the solar doing? And what were the mortals doing?
This is as bad as when I was STing a high powered game with 1000 xp, and I had an essence 5 zenith PC who got beat the snot out of by a ghost NPC with 1000 xp... using 1e.
Yeah... the Zenith player was unused to high powered combat and what she could do in terms of charms and anima abilities... and I was using the ghost effectively. but that's neither here nor there.
And let's be honest, 5 dragon force blow is good... but it's also very straighht forward in what it does...yeah, it doubles the damage before extra successes. But it's also a simple charm that is speed 6, and -1 to the DV. And unless it's comboed with something? That's the ONLY attack you'll be making for 6 ticks. And it does NOTHING to enhance the odds of the attack landing...
So, it's simple enough to defend against and leaves you wide open... and you are NERFING it to replace Violet Bier of Sorrows's Blade of the Battle Maiden?
I should also note that Solars CAN create charms based on "sledgehammer fist punch", which would allow a solar to do pre-soak damage doubling for 3 motes, and it's -supplemental-. And it's 2 charms in, before the form.
Also, I have used VBoS in battle and it's good... but I honestly think it's well-estimated. Yes, in the hands of a solar, it becomes lethal. But in the hands of a sidereal? It's not as nasty as it seems.
Yes, it combines the effects of 2 baseline solar charms, which can't be comboed. Also note that the sidereals can NEVER create custom charms, while the solars can.
And those 2 solar charms work for EVERY ability and has no drawbacks, while BotBM only works for -1- ability, martial arts and only if the user is going in effect buck-naked into combat with no armour and must go without weapons if using it in junction with ANOTHER martial arts style, or needs to find a style that has complimentary weapons.
So yeah... is it good? yes, but is it THAT good that you need to nerf it? No. And that ST really needs to learn to say no or be willing to accept that exalts can and WILL break the game and plots that he has, especially if allowed to have any charms they want.
Just what the hell was the solar doing? And what were the mortals doing?
This is as bad as when I was STing a high powered game with 1000 xp, and I had an essence 5 zenith PC who got beat the snot out of by a ghost NPC with 1000 xp... using 1e.
Yeah... the Zenith player was unused to high powered combat and what she could do in terms of charms and anima abilities... and I was using the ghost effectively. but that's neither here nor there.
And let's be honest, 5 dragon force blow is good... but it's also very straighht forward in what it does...yeah, it doubles the damage before extra successes. But it's also a simple charm that is speed 6, and -1 to the DV. And unless it's comboed with something? That's the ONLY attack you'll be making for 6 ticks. And it does NOTHING to enhance the odds of the attack landing...
So, it's simple enough to defend against and leaves you wide open... and you are NERFING it to replace Violet Bier of Sorrows's Blade of the Battle Maiden?
I should also note that Solars CAN create charms based on "sledgehammer fist punch", which would allow a solar to do pre-soak damage doubling for 3 motes, and it's -supplemental-. And it's 2 charms in, before the form.
Also, I have used VBoS in battle and it's good... but I honestly think it's well-estimated. Yes, in the hands of a solar, it becomes lethal. But in the hands of a sidereal? It's not as nasty as it seems.
Yes, it combines the effects of 2 baseline solar charms, which can't be comboed. Also note that the sidereals can NEVER create custom charms, while the solars can.
And those 2 solar charms work for EVERY ability and has no drawbacks, while BotBM only works for -1- ability, martial arts and only if the user is going in effect buck-naked into combat with no armour and must go without weapons if using it in junction with ANOTHER martial arts style, or needs to find a style that has complimentary weapons.
So yeah... is it good? yes, but is it THAT good that you need to nerf it? No. And that ST really needs to learn to say no or be willing to accept that exalts can and WILL break the game and plots that he has, especially if allowed to have any charms they want.
wordman
Two Thousand Club
Take another look at the tree. Five Dragon is already basically nerfed, but it isn't the charm effects that are nerfed, it's the timing. It is true that FDFB is  impressive when you get to use it. In in any fair fight, however, using it is nearly suicide, because you cannot flurry. I'd rather have Hungry Tiger. Five-Dragon Fist has the same issues: looks cool, but in practical combat it is almost never used.
Even Five-Dragon Wrath, which looks pretty good, isn't what it seems because it only provides attacks, not actions. Want to jump and use it? Too bad.
Five Dragon also doesn't combo that well compared to other styles, especially given that terrestrials can use reflexives without combos. Now, Five Dragon can combo with other styles nicely if those styles allow armor, not so well if they don't.
fhgwdads05
Junior Member
First off, did you actually have a good reason to have VBoS? Â I mean honestly, there's pretty much no reason whatsoever for a Solar to start with it, let alone Sidereal teach the style to one. Â Sidereals are quite the packrats when it comes to keeping MA techniques to themselves (except in the case of that one DB they are trying to teach SMA to).
Other than that, the only way you could've had a dice pool of 45 is if you were playing a GSS twink. Â If you're going to complain about BotBM being broken, then you should probably do the same with GSS, because the two are about even in terms of scale of power.
BTW, Solar MA ARE Celestial MA. Â Hell, by all rights VBoS SHOULD be better than Solar Hero Style, Lunar Hero Style, or any others. Â Sidereals are supposed to represent the greatest MAists in Exalted, as its a fundamental part of their being.
FluffySquirrel
Member
Yes, you're probably right, VBoS arguably should be one of the more powerful celestial MA's.
However, using the same logic, it should then follow that on the power scale, celestial MA shouldn't be better than equivalent solar charms, except BotBM does so, easily. Combining the two effects of the high ess excellency addons is -incredibly- powerful, and more than that, I think part of the problem is that it gives the MAist what many people feel -should- be built into solar excellencies.. because honestly, having essence flow and infinite mastery unlinkable plain sucks from a coolness perspective. But then, I'm in favour of powering up the coolness of excellencies in general, I dislike the way you can often just buy 1 excellency and not need any others... it would be nicer if you could use them all together and actually have benefits to doing so, rather than just be given some inexplicable "you can't do that."
Cause.. -why- can't you use first excellency and then reroll with third?.. makes sense from every point of IC thought and charm design except for OOC metagaming purposes.
However, using the same logic, it should then follow that on the power scale, celestial MA shouldn't be better than equivalent solar charms, except BotBM does so, easily. Combining the two effects of the high ess excellency addons is -incredibly- powerful, and more than that, I think part of the problem is that it gives the MAist what many people feel -should- be built into solar excellencies.. because honestly, having essence flow and infinite mastery unlinkable plain sucks from a coolness perspective. But then, I'm in favour of powering up the coolness of excellencies in general, I dislike the way you can often just buy 1 excellency and not need any others... it would be nicer if you could use them all together and actually have benefits to doing so, rather than just be given some inexplicable "you can't do that."
Cause.. -why- can't you use first excellency and then reroll with third?.. makes sense from every point of IC thought and charm design except for OOC metagaming purposes.
Lord Kamina
Not an engineer.
My ST actually offered it to me before play. Also I know by canon they don't really teach it, but my character is related in a special way to the CoTI...fhgwdads05 said:
Dracogryff
One Thousand Club
Haku1
Ze Hamster of Lurkdom
Lord Kamina
Not an engineer.
Haku said:
wordman
Two Thousand Club
That's always tricky. In my experience, rather than start throwing ad hoc rules all over the place, everyone (ST included) will have more fun if you just completely scrap the campaign, talk about how you all want to run the next one, then start a new one.
Lord Kamina
Not an engineer.
That won't happen because we kinda got the hang of it already. We didn't just start the campaign randomly. We ran a 2-session module before that to get used to system and a bit of setting and because we REALLY liked that, and the ST (Who previously didn't like running stuff) became interested in it so we planned the campaign some 3-4 months in advance. He laid out some pretty specific guidelines and so far it's worked great and it's been really fun. You just can't plan for everything, though.wordman said:
Dracogryff
One Thousand Club
Personally, in that case, I'd just find another style and switch to that if it's causing so much trouble. I know that it's not going to happen...but I still think that would be the best solution if people were handing out stuff injudiciously because they didn't realize the consequences. I don't think the style's going to take well to being nerfed and altered, is all. Especially if you're using nerfed Terrestrial Martial Arts charms to try and patch it with. Celestial Styles are supposed to be more powerful than Terrestrial Styles.
*shrugs* Good luck.
*shrugs* Good luck.
wordman
Two Thousand Club
You might, then, try the "punt" option of derailed games: the Glorious Retcon Integration Pods! A GRIP is a plot device, usually about as subtle as a sledge to the head but no one minds, because everyone metagames agreement to use it.
The GRIP can take many forms, but the basic idea is that the PCs all get disintegrated by the GRIP, which can take many forms (magic rock, cosmic imp, teleportation nodes, travel pods, Primordial fart, whatever), and then immediately rebuilt (for some equally implausible reason).
The idea of the GRIP is that broken characters go in, and nice, restatted characters come out. It's sort of an unspend your XP, then respend it, button. A PC goes in with VBoS and comes out with, uh, Solar Hero or whatever. That spell someone bought that sounded cool but turned out useless, replaced with something more fun.
Basically, GMs of broken stories like GRIPs because it allows them to fix the brokenness in a way that a) player's buy into, b) prevents wining about "I used to be able to do that" and c) puts the focus back on the story instead of bad past decisions. Players like it because it allows them to tweak their characters to fix their own bad choices. In practice, PCs usually come out of of a GRIP slightly more powerful than before, but now operate under the new set of rules, so it is often a wash. Usually, everyone is pleased with the GRIP, but for a different reason.
There are a number of ways you can use GRIPs, with various limits. For example, only x charms can be changed, only 50 xp, can't change Essence rating, etc. In Exalted, it helps if there are copies of the characters from right after generation. If you have these, you can give them their whole pool of xp, to build up from start, if you want. You can also do semi-GRIPs, which give a plot reason for changing mechanics from that point on. I did this recently in my 1E campaign, adding a set of moonsilver needles that changed lunar xp costs.
Lord Kamina
Not an engineer.
We aren't nerfing VBoS much really, it's just we thought BoTBM was way too much, especially as a pre-form charm. And since I had already learned it (During play), we couldn't just remove it... And since we failed to modify BoTBM, we added another charm with an addendum of maybe adding a modified BoTBM later in the tree, after the form charm.Dracogryff said:
Additionally, The ST allowed us to do basically any change to the characters during the first 13 or so sessions, he spread the advice that period would end at the start of the second story (Giving enough time in advance to do changes)
Now, noone is really broken in the campaign and it's turning out real fun. (It's my favourite ongoing campaign as a matter of fact), just the other session we got our asses handed to us by a squad of 5 DB led by an Abyssal.
Now, if you'd like to know why the fuck I have VBoS, it went kinda like this:
"Hey ST... I want to fight with a Staff, help me find a cool MA style?"
ST & Me: "Um, let's see... look through imperfect lotus, exaltedwiki, scroll of the monk, 1e ma trees, fan trees"... ST: "I think you'll have to pick between Snake and VBoS" Me: "I dislike Snake, used that in the module and plus another player is taking it already... I could try to make a custom tree?" ST: "That'd take ages, take VBoS"
Dracogryff
One Thousand Club
I hate to say it, but the ST sounds like a moron. o_o;;; That is the dumbest reason I've ever heard to allow someone to have VBoS...oh well. Again, good luck. u.u
At least it sounds like everyone's enjoying the game, which is what really matters. And I like the GRIPs, Wordman...I've never had a reason to use them (aside from maybe they'd make a good explanation for the changes due to 2E on a number of characters...), but I think I'll keep that one in mind if I ever have that issue.
Edit: Oh, and Retcon is always possible. I've had character death Retconned before, and that's bigger than changing Martial Arts styles. Once, granted, but retcon can and does happen if situations like this occur. *shrugs and points at the GRIPs* Don't have to...but it's not something that's impossible.
At least it sounds like everyone's enjoying the game, which is what really matters. And I like the GRIPs, Wordman...I've never had a reason to use them (aside from maybe they'd make a good explanation for the changes due to 2E on a number of characters...), but I think I'll keep that one in mind if I ever have that issue.
Edit: Oh, and Retcon is always possible. I've had character death Retconned before, and that's bigger than changing Martial Arts styles. Once, granted, but retcon can and does happen if situations like this occur. *shrugs and points at the GRIPs* Don't have to...but it's not something that's impossible.
fhgwdads05
Junior Member
Speak of the devil, one of the PbP games I'm in just went through a GRIP for changing from 1e to 2e about two months ago.
