Lunar sorcery

[ashenphoenix]

Who says quest?  Who says eldar lunars dont already know that stuff?  Who says that if it really were war, eldar lunars wouldnt be teaching that?  I can certainly imagine that during the off times during the first age someone tought a Lunar some martial arts, and some Lunars decided to maximize it to the fullest with shapeshifting.

So I was just going for a walk to the shops the other day, and I bumped into Luna. Anyways, we got to chatting and she just handed me a lunar shard. I didn't know what the hell to do, so I figured I'd go have a chat with ol' Raksi but once I got there she wasn't home, so I decided to pay a visit to Leviathan, who was just next door. Anyways, he invited me in, and gave me a cup of tea (it was a bit watery though) and handed me and autographed copy of The Complete Idiot's Guide to Lunar Martial Arts, which he published just last week. Real friendly guy.


Well, of course you know what I went and did then. I chucked my old charms, because they just didn't take advantage of my full capabilities. Once I'd read it through, I figured it'd probably go for a bit on eBay (being signed an' all). Didn't get much for it, some guy with the nick TFAFL picked it up.


So yeah, I'm about to knock over Yu Shan. Wanna come? No? 'K, seeya tomorrow.

 

[memesis]

So I was just going for a walk to the shops the other day, and I bumped into Luna. Anyways, we got to chatting and she just handed me a lunar shard.

Next stop, the tattoo parlor.

 

[shifty]

The second part is your interpretation.  If there were no tells, then the shapeshifting combat charms that lunars have would be greatly balanced.  Cause then you would have sneaky trickster assassins.

I'm not sure what side of the argument you're on, but you do get them being sneaky trickster assassins - especially with Hide of the Cunning Hunter and Masking the Brilliant Form.

When measured up against the other celestial sneaky trickster assassins they are lacking.  Besides, spending 1 WP every twenty minutes just suppress a tell does NOT a trickster make.  


Tells ruin shapeshifting for that intent.  If you want to have them, I easily recommend bumping everything up a category of tells.  Otherwise, combined with the crappy charm trees that Lunars have (not saying that the charms are bad... just amazingly filled with speedbumps on a class that spends a LOT purchasing charms), almost any Sidereal abyssal or Solar assassin is better.  Because DBT is what makes a Lunar formidable in combat, whereas Solars, Abyssals, et. al, dont have a lynch pin charm.  And the fact that DBT hinders your shapeshifitng disguises, means that either you play a powered down assassin or a crappy one.


Everybody rants on how great the shapeshifting charms compared to MA charms are.  I just dont see it.  With the exception of DBT, and few others, generally shapeshifting is too filled with speedbumps.  Which means that despite what you guys are saying, it would behoove a Lunar to learn a decent MA.  Sure, once you get a few animals under your belt, that you dont really need things, like climbing, swimming, and what not.  But a tradeoff like that is pretty minor.


Your other comment is assinine.

 

[Persell]

Lunars just have bad charm trees. No two ways about it, Lunars got dealt the crappiest hand in 1st ed. Not in terms of power but in terms of feeling right. This is one thing I'm actually going to rely on 2nd ed for.

 

[Forn Clakes]

Lunars just have bad charm trees. No two ways about it, Lunars got dealt the crappiest hand in 1st ed. Not in terms of power but in terms of feeling right. This is one thing I'm actually going to rely on 2nd ed for.

Agreed.


~FC.

 

[memesis]

Oh give it a fucking rest.


"The lunars suck, blah blah blah".  There are many, many players and STs who know how to use Lunars well, and do so, and make them interesting.  That you lack that ability is not the fault of the rules.


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?LunarsAreFine


If you don't understand something, go here and look for it.  If you don't see it, post it as a question and someone will probably address your question.


If you simply think "X part of the Lunar rules just sucks" and are unwilling to think about it any further, you're welcome to your opinion.  But come on, if you aren't willing to defend that opinion, how useful is it for you to post that?

 

[Seiraryu]

My actual phunk with Lunars isn't in their roles, their settings, or even their Charms on an individual basis, actually.


My main problems with Lunars are that:

• Their Charm trees are Attribute-mixed.  I don't like this.  I think Lunars should be able to work into their Caste Charm trees like other Exalts can, instead of being forced to spread their Attributes around.  It's to the point in which you can't play, for example, a completely Socially inapt Full Moon, because you need several dots in Manipulation and Charisma.  And that's just one example.
  
• Deadly Beastman Transformation and Finding the Spirit's Shape (the latter especially) shouldn't have been Charms, but simple powers that the Lunars have access to because of their inherent protean nature.
  
• No matter what people at WW say, I think Lunars really should be masters of illusion and tricksters.  Just the way they were promoted:  shapeshifters and masters of illusions.  So those Charms are missing.

Anyway, if you think they're fine, good for you, but some people think some things are missing.  Simple as that.

 

[memesis]

Anyway, if you think they're fine, good for you, but some people think some things are missing.  Simple as that.

See, this is what I like to see.  "Here are specific, addressable issues", as opposed to "blah blah sucks blah".


The first issue is a pretty fundamental design question.


The second is one easy house-rule away.


The third is trickier, because a lot of people say "illusions" but are not in the slightest bit clear just what it is they do want.  If you are interested in doing so, post your take on what constitutes "illusions" in a new thread (this one has been hijacked beyond reason...), and see what develops?

 

[Seiraryu]

Will do.

 

[shifty]

See this is what I like to see.  "Here are specific, addressable issues", as opposed to "blah blah sucks blah".

Who died and made you the opinion nazi?


I actually, GAVE specific addressable issues.  The charm trees are too big.  And filled with too much speedbumb charms especially given Lunar XP costs.  


Dont whine if you cant read.  Anyone can houserule anything.  The point is that we shouldnt have too.  Seiraryu hit its pretty close, and NEPH himself admits that Lunars got it, in teh same way Solars did vs Abyssals.  Dont believe me?


Here you go from the same page.


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Th ... unarCharms


So yes.  Combined with the Fact that Lunars werent and arent illusionists, (well I guess like the word, "is", illusionist has more than one meaning in a fantasy roleplaying setting) like they were billed, with huge charm trees, etc.. all combined together add to some major disappointment.  Not to mention very bad setting info. Telling people how to houserule is like saying here, by this product and to make it work you have to...


Sorry but I like the things I buy to work right out of the box.  (Exaggerating for effect a bit)


And furthermore, I felt a good solution was for keeping Lunars the same, but removing the tell issue somewhat allowed them a bump in the right direction.


So we have cause, action and recommendation.  I fail to see the reason for your outburst.

 

[memesis]

Who died and made you the opinion nazi?
So we have cause, action and recommendation.  I fail to see the reason for your outburst.

The reason is comments like this:


"Besides, spending 1 WP every twenty minutes just suppress a tell does NOT a trickster make. " (although in fairness this was due to another comment)


"Because DBT is what makes a Lunar formidable in combat, whereas Solars, Abyssals, et. al, dont have a lynch pin charm."


"Everybody rants on how great the shapeshifting charms compared to MA charms are.  I just dont see it."


These comments reflect an ignorance of the efficient way to use Lunar abilities, and an apparent refusal to learn - it sounds like you've formed your opinion and aren't interested in revising it.


If pointing out that this attitude is short-sighted and stupid makes me an opinion nazi, then seig fucking heil.  If I am misinterpreting your attitude, ask for (and expect) a public apology here.

 

[shifty]

Who died and made you the opinion nazi?
So we have cause, action and recommendation.  I fail to see the reason for your outburst.

The reason is comments like this:


"Besides, spending 1 WP every twenty minutes just suppress a tell does NOT a trickster make. " (although in fairness this was due to another comment)


"Because DBT is what makes a Lunar formidable in combat, whereas Solars, Abyssals, et. al, dont have a lynch pin charm."


"Everybody rants on how great the shapeshifting charms compared to MA charms are.  I just dont see it."


These comments reflect an ignorance of the efficient way to use Lunar abilities, and an apparent refusal to learn - it sounds like you've formed your opinion and aren't interested in revising it.


If pointing out that this attitude is short-sighted and stupid makes me an opinion nazi, then seig fucking heil.  If I am misinterpreting your attitude, ask for (and expect) a public apology here.

Well then inform me oh great godly master of the charm trees as to why I am so mistaken.  OH wait.  THe great Neph backs me up which is why you dont comment upon it.

 

[Seiraryu]

shifty, you're being desperately immature.  I mean, I agree with you that Lunar Charms are broken, but even I see the whole "look, look, Neph said stuff so it must be right and that's that!" as a desperate attempt to be unable to generate your own civil commentary on it.


Perhaps if you relied on your own ideas and thoughts, and outlined them as I did, you wouldn't be having this diatribe with memesis.  Maybe you haven't noticed, but when I approached the things I didn't like about Lunar, memesis got into it with good intentions and we've now got a nice thread discussion going about the subject.


Really, I enjoyed the back-and-forth between people in the old EC as much (if not more, since I'm easily amused) than anyone, but this is just plain ridiculous.  At least the arguments in the old EC were peppered with witty sarcasm and amusing banter.  This:


"Well then inform me oh great godly master of the charm trees as to why I am so mistaken.  OH wait.  THe great Neph backs me up which is why you dont comment upon it."


... is rather sad.  The Great Neph?  You mean the one that went haywire on Alchemicals?  I like Neph's Abyssal Charms just as much as anyone, but he's not the be-all and end-all of Charms, Charm Trees, Exalted, Exalted Systems, or anything.  He's a good crunch-man... but he's not infallible.  You're just being silly.

 

[shifty]

shifty, you're being desperately immature.  I mean, I agree with you that Lunar Charms are broken, but even I see the whole "look, look, Neph said stuff so it must be right and that's that!" as a desperate attempt to be unable to generate your own civil commentary on it.

Whoah whoah whoah.  Hold your horses there.  Go back and reread my stuff.


MY post was pretty nice.  He went on the deep end.  The rest of your tripe is you missing me, pulling his own crap back at him in a great move called, "irony."  He went and said, "blah blah blah, quite being a whiny baby," and then stated a link as if some magic god formula from the Wiki was an answer.  What is good for the goose is good for the gander.  So I stated a WIki link right back supporting my point.  In particular, back when I stated MY point without having some stupid White Wolf author around, who if you havent noticed my post history (And well I guess you wouldnt since I dont post here much), I regularly CASTIGATE Neph for being unoriginal, it was a few people making snide remarks at something that really isnt so off the mark.  Want me to prove it reread the thread on ST deathlords.


 The whole point was a big nice grand ole irony at mems original attack.   Perhaps reading comprehension is due for you as well?  I know my writing can be hard to understand, but the level of points missed here from you really suggests that you arent reading and are merely reacting, is Mem a friend?


If you dont like   it, fine.  But dont accuse me of starting an assholio contest, when it is clearly Memesis.  ANd yourself.  Flowery language and pretty avatars dont mean sqaut.  You aint your post count, and kissing the butt of people with em, doesnt make your points any more or less valid.

 

[Seiraryu]

Whoah whoah whoah.  Hold your horses there.  Go back and reread my stuff.
MY post was pretty nice.  He went on the deep end.  The rest of your tripe is you missing me, pulling his own crap back at him in a great move called, "irony."  He went and said, "blah blah blah, quite being a whiny baby," and then stated a link as if some magic god formula from the Wiki was an answer.  What is good for the goose is good for the gander.  So I stated a WIki link right back supporting my point.  In particular, when I stated MY point without having some stupid White Wolf author around, who if you havent noticed my post history (And well I guess you wouldnt since I dont post here much), I regularly CASTIGATE Neph for being unoriginal.  The whole point was a big nice grand ole irony at mems original attack.  Perhaps you ought to read the thread about ST deathlords.  Perhaps reading comprehension is for you as well?  I know my writing can be hard to understand, but the level of points missed here from you really suggests that you arent reading and are merely reacting.


If you dont like   it, fine.  But dont accuse me of starting an assholio contest, when it is clearly Memesis.  ANd yourself.  Flowery language and pretty avatars dont mean sqaut.

Flowery language and pretty avatars?  That's just funny.


What I was suggesting, which perhaps you completely missed, was that in order to have a discussion about something, instead of an argument about nothing, you need to be able to state your case without refering to outside influences and falling into an "assholio contest" trap like you so obviously did.  "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" works fine when all you want is a fight, but when you're trying to debate something, especially something as abstract as the metaphysical ramifications of the mechanics of Exalted, you need to do more than blather around unconditionally.


I'd say the same to memesis, but he's proven that his post was more or less a reaction, and that he can accept another point of view.  His post about "being whiny babies" was more geared (at least from what i understood) to making us state our ideas more plainly, rather than chaotically.  It worked in my case... in yours it just pissed you off.  *Shrug.*


Frankly, I couldn't care less, but I'd like to see some intelligent thoughts on this subject, not a bunch of posts consisting of who can pull more wiki references out of their asses.


I don't really have anything against you, I just think you'd probably get a lot more out of this if you kept a cooler head.


By the way, your attempt at irony (I really don't see the need to put it between quotations) wasn't very inspiring.  But that's besides the point.

 

[Seiraryu]

A response to your edits:


No, I've never talked to memesis before this in my life, save once in the Lore5 forum when I asked if he could make some specifications as to the system for submitting weapon artifacts.


I don't kiss ass.  I was around in the old EC, and I'm here in the new EC.  I've argued with people with post counts higher than memesis and agreed with people who have a post count of two.  Post count,a s you so heroically suggested, means jack shit.


I was unaware that anything I said made me an ass-kisser of those with high post counts.


Ironically, these last posts have taken me to Little God status.  See?  Irony.  That's good stuff.

 

[shifty]

A response to your edits:
No, I've never talked to memesis before this in my life, save once in the Lore5 forum when I asked if he could make some specifications as to the system for submitting weapon artifacts.


I don't kiss ass.  I was around in the old EC, and I'm here in the new EC.  I've argued with people with post counts higher than memesis and agreed with people who have a post count of two.  Post count,a s you so heroically suggested, means jack shit.

That is funny, cause I was around then too, and my recollection you were big on status then too.  I was the guy who originally thought that the council was the solars and allies using the Spell Unity of the Closed Fist.   Oh wait, now you seem to be about, who has been around EC longer.  Some people just dont change eh?  No matter how they argue it.

I was unaware that anything I said made me an ass-kisser of those with high post counts.

Likely because, you hypocritically tried to insult me, for posting the EXACT same way Memesis did to me, earlier, when you were seeming to have a nice discussion with him.  Maybe you are a hypocrit then?  Which fits better?

Irony thats good stuff.

I dont know what is more ironic, you trying to point to your post count, on relatively a new forum, or the fact that you cant get over me posting in the EC tradition a la TSJ.  And we all know that the first defence in the ole irony angle I was going at, is to deny its funnyness when caught.  It seems someone is using an opinion to attempt to goad me.

What I was suggesting, which perhaps you completely missed, was that in order to have a discussion about something, instead of an argument about nothing, you need to be able to state your case without refering to outside influences and falling into an "assholio contest" trap like you so obviously did.

And funnily enough, we did right have a nice reasonable discussion before mem broke in.  Of which you STILL havent said anything.  Let me point out a few selections here.

I think that is really the perfect time to study a fighting art.  Because while part of fighting is knowing yourself, a great deal of Exalted martial art is manipulating essence.  And short of teaching sorcery, martial arts are pretty dang good way of learning that.

It's a perfect time to study a martial arts, yes.  But it's an even BETTER time to refine and define what a Lunar Exalt can do with her own, natural powers.  Not to go off galavanting on some Essence-manipulation quest to better oneself, even if that makes the Exalt a good fighter.


Lunars have abilities that have much more potential than their current Charms suggest...they should be maximizing that before they start branching off.

And here is where I DID outline all of my points, even disregarding the blatant tones of ashenphoenix.

When measured up against the other celestial sneaky trickster assassins they are lacking.  Besides, spending 1 WP every twenty minutes just suppress a tell does NOT a trickster make.  


Tells ruin shapeshifting for that intent.  If you want to have them, I easily recommend bumping everything up a category of tells.  Otherwise, combined with the crappy charm trees that Lunars have (not saying that the charms are bad... just amazingly filled with speedbumps on a class that spends a LOT purchasing charms), almost any Sidereal abyssal or Solar assassin is better.  Because DBT is what makes a Lunar formidable in combat, whereas Solars, Abyssals, et. al, dont have a lynch pin charm.  And the fact that DBT hinders your shapeshifitng disguises, means that either you play a powered down assassin or a crappy one.


Everybody rants on how great the shapeshifting charms compared to MA charms are.  I just dont see it.  With the exception of DBT, and few others, generally shapeshifting is too filled with speedbumps.  Which means that despite what you guys are saying, it would behoove a Lunar to learn a decent MA.  Sure, once you get a few animals under your belt, that you dont really need things, like climbing, swimming, and what not.  But a tradeoff like that is pretty minor.

From this mem, launched on a tirade bout specific charms, while I was talking about Charm trees, and indirectly the 15 xp it costs to buy a charm.


So, hypocritical dumbass?  How in what way have I not filled my points out, well before you and Mem.


Like I said, you either dont read, are a hypocrit, or are a dumbass.

 

[wordman]

Hmmm...


Sorry I asked. Pity you can't delete topics you create.

 

[Seiraryu]

Ugh, too lazy to go around quoting stuff.


Your recollection is that I was big on status?  I've never been big on status.  I see nothing in my past actions that may even remotely suggest that I'm big on status.


I don't really care who's been around longer, and again, I don't see how I'm "about post count."  You keep mentioning my lack of reading, but you don't seem to comprehend basic English.  I simply stated I was around back then to provide a setting for my example since, as you well poiunted out, this forum is relatively new.  But here you come, barging back in with your so called irony when all it is is making a huge fucking deal, not to mention competition, about something I don't even give a rat's ass about.  Maybe you're the fucking hypocrite, ass wipe.


Oh go stick EC tradition up your ass.  I can respect the innate hostility that permeates the entire place, and even contribute to it because it actually does beneficial things for the forum (like keeping those pesky WW Forumites away, heh) but your version of it seems to consist of just being a general asshole all around, which is inane, dumbass.


I'll give you that much--you're right.  I didn't answer your post, which I should have.  Fortunately, I'm the kind of guy who can accept when he's wrong.  


To which:


Yes, Lunar Charm Trees are fucked.  This is why I'm going nuts trying to fiix them.  The Tell sucks, which is why I'm trying to fix it.  However, I disagree with you that the Martial Arts styles that Lunars could possibly learn (which do not include Sidereal MA), aren't Lunar-friendly.  Most of the Lunar combat charms are actually quite good, they rip to shreds whatever they get their claws on, and depending on which charm they use for claws, they can rip a lot to shreds.  But let's take a different road to this discussion:


You say you think Lunars would have developed a Martial Arts based on Shapeshifting.  I say they wouldn't have within the canon outline of those Exalted as a whole.  My reasoning is that, while Martial Arts are studied and sycnhronized fighting arts, the Lunars already have their own type of Martial Arts.  It's their Unarmed and Melee Trees.  Only, wait, their trees can continue to extend as they rise in Essence and Attributes... not to mention that it's almost completely based on their Shapeshifting powers... not to mention that it's all pervasive, meaning you can use them with Brawl, Melee, Martial Arts and probably your ass by shapeshifting it into some sort of canon and shooting exploding Essence farts (a la gigantic bugs from Starship Troopers).  Not to mention armor compatibility!


What Lunar in his or her wrong mind would go through the trouble of creating an entire style that would basically duplicate, with more limitations, what they can already do.


"Wait wait.  I know, instead of buying Ferocious Sword Strike, I'll just make a MArtial Arts that let's me do the same, but only unarmed and with swords.   Even though FSS lets itself be used with swords, polearms, katars, bats, sledgehammers, knifes and anything else I can get my claws on!"


You said "Everybody rants on how great the shapeshifting charms compared to MA charms are.  I just don't see it."  Then you went on to mention that they're loaded with speedbumps, which I will concede you half-way.  There are a bit too many, but it's not LOADED.  A few charms here and a few charms there would make it pretty stable.Probably just four or five charms would get eliminated, at the most.


You didn't fill your points out in a way that caught anyone's attention, obviously.  If memesis reacted the way he did, he might've had a reason (or he might've just been cranky); but maybe your post simply didn't catch my attention.


I know when I first read it, I sort of sped through it--it just didn't call out for a response.  It happens, deal with it.  I didn't response, memesis went psycho... big fucking deal.


In any case, I do read the posts, sometimes they simply don't interest me enough.  I don't really think of myself as a dumbass, but that's your call about your opinion of me, which frankly I couldn't care less about.  As for hypocrite... I try not to be, most of the time.  But occasionally I catch myself yelling at my brother for asking me what smoking is like, telling him it's the worst thing ever... with a cigarette in my hand.  Again: it happens.


Do chill out, shifty.  All this violent exuberance can't be any good for you.  

 

[Seiraryu]

Hmmm...
Sorry I asked. Pity you can't delete topics you create.

Partially my fault (if not all my fault, meh).  I apologize for screwing your thread, wordman.

 

[Obsidian Soul]

Back to the discussion on Lunars.


Lunars big advantage is their shapeshifting.  Yes, if they max out DBT they are going to stand out like a freaking hooker at a Catholic mass, but that's what you get for wanted to be a combat monster.  You have to choose, do you want stealth or do you want combat prowess?  If you want stealth, there are a hell of a lot of Terrestrial and Celestial MA Style that can extend your lifespan by quite a bit.  If you want combat prowess, you might want to learn Sorcery to round yourself out, but you really don't need MA styles; they help, but you don't need them.


To reply to an earlier comment.  A plus five to Strength and Stamina is always welcome, even in DBT form.  If you have purchased DBT five times, the maximum allowed with Essence five, you will have 17 extra attribute points (assuming you don't get the gift that gives you one or two more, depending on when you buy it).  Assuming you spread them equally around, you will have a +4 Strength, a +4 Dexterity and a +5 Stamina.  If you also know Jade Mountain Form, you can add an additional +5 to Stamina and Strength, which will give you that extra edge in those bad situations.

 

[wordman]

I apologize for screwing your thread, wordman.

No sweat. It was done a few weeks ago anyway.

 

[ashenphoenix]

• No matter what people at WW say, I think Lunars really should be masters of illusion and tricksters.  Just the way they were promoted:  shapeshifters and masters of illusions.  So those Charms are missing.

No other Exalt can perform shaping combat.


This means that if they're in an area with even the slightest touch of the Wyld, then they can pull whatever illusions they wish.


It's not in the Lunars book though, it's in an expansion, which is kinda shitty.

 

[Seiraryu]

• No matter what people at WW say, I think Lunars really should be masters of illusion and tricksters.  Just the way they were promoted:  shapeshifters and masters of illusions.  So those Charms are missing.

No other Exalt can perform shaping combat.


This means that if they're in an area with even the slightest touch of the Wyld, then they can pull whatever illusions they wish.


It's not in the Lunars book though, it's in an expansion, which is kinda shitty.

I'm talking about a different kind of illusions, as discussed in the other conversation that stemmed from this one.

 

[ashenphoenix]

Yeah, sorry 'bout, only just caught up with that and this thread.


Damnable uni - making me miss precious RPing stuff!