Lunar sorcery

[wordman]

Like most, I think Lunars got the shaft in a lot of ways. Unfortunately, I'm running an ongoing campaign containing a Lunar and have been for some time before I realized this fully. So, while others seem keen on radically changing the charm trees and so on, I've been looking for simple tweaks that yield a lot of mileage (particularly in a campaign that mixes solar and lunar characters, like mine).


One such tweak has worked out well so far: allowing lunars to pay solar xp costs for charms in martial arts styles based on their totem animal.


I've been thinking about another such tweak and wonder if anyone has tried it. Since lunars are used to shaping themselves and the world to match their will, it seems like they'd be naturals at sorcery. I think I might change the xp cost for spells and necromancy to 9xp (7xp for No Moons). Standard lunar cost is 15(12). This seems like it might change some the tenor of lunars a lot.


Anyone tried this? What were the effects?

 

[memesis]

I've been thinking about another such tweak and wonder if anyone has tried it. Since lunars are used to shaping themselves and the world to match their will, it seems like they'd be naturals at sorcery. I think I might change the xp cost for spells and necromancy to 9xp (7xp for No Moons). Standard lunar cost is 15(12). This seems like it might change some the tenor of lunars a lot.

Thematically, No Moons are naturals at sorcery; the other castes aren't really geared for it.  I might drop the XP cost for them a bit.


Different tweaks can affect your Lunar experience in different ways.  If I were running a Lunar-centered game, I'd make two changes: allow favored attributes instead of favored abilities (and let PCs take Prodigy if they wanted some back), and reduce or remove the Essence cost for animal shapeshifting.  But those lead to the sort of Lunar game I want, so YMMV.

 

[Persell]

My only gripe about the Lunars is their XP costs. Everything else i don't have a problem with. I simply changed their cost to be an average of Solars and Dragon Blooded, that seemed to even everything out.

 

[ashenphoenix]

Bare in mind that Lunars can also get the effects of glamour sorcery, oaths and can participate in shaping combat if they have graces forged for them by the Raksha.


This means that they don't get quite as fucked rules-wise, as they can potentially run around as the illusion-throwing nasties that the corebook had them to be.


I'm not sure, however, exactly how socially acceptable it is to commonly associating with the Fair Folk, however. It's probably likely to be a violation of the Silver Pact (I don't have my copy of Lunars to check up on that though).

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Bare in mind that Lunars can also get the effects of glamour sorcery, oaths and can participate in shaping combat if they have graces forged for them by the Raksha.

 Since Lunars are allowed Fair Folk charms, it only takes a single Lunar to acquire the grace-forging charm tree before that Lunar can start crafting graces for other Lunars. It's not unlikely that at least one First Age Lunar has taken a stroll Wyld-wise and picked up said charms.

 

[Haku1]

Quite likely they have...


But since WW seems to hate Lunars... they won't mention THOSE lunars...  :wink:

 

[Arthemis Rex]

one change that i've made is to allow lunars to combo lunar charms and martial arts charms freely


the book suggests that lunar charms dont combo with martial arts but this doesnt make any sense. a truly protean shapeshifter would be a martial arts badass second only to Sidereals


think about it- where a solar might leap out of the way of a combo a lunar might evade by just assuming a larger or smaller form and thus 'not be there'. the versitility of lunar charms and the combo effects that they can achieve I think really reflects this sort of natural martial propensity


any of you guys play werewolf? remember Kailindo? look at your kailindo maneuversfor more ideas


my fav kailindo move was to grapple an opponent in a human form and shift to a Crinos (or deadly beastman) as the force of my shapeshifting pulls limb from limb


i dont like the idea of every lunar being a spell slinging monstrocity allthough a full moon or changing moon might be a terrestrial sorcerer (in fact all such players could in my game) but celestial circle is strictly the realm of no moons unless the whole forbidden knowledge thing is a big theme of the game


lastly in a mixed group like yours i reccomend going to solar experience chart- else the solars will quickly steal the show

 

[Jakk Bey]

Joseph made a wonderful argument on the old EC about Lunars and Martial Arts.


And the gist of its: Lunars don't need no stinking Martial Arts.  Their Charms aren't based on Abilites, so why would they adopt trees that were less effective than their native Charms? Why invest time and effort on Charms that weren't as good as what they start off with?


Investing in their own Charms, they have a fighting style that is superior to Martial Arts, for them at least. They don't need Martial Arts--that's for people who can't turn their hands into spears with teeth and hooks, or transform their flesh into armor naturally.


It makes perfect sense that they don't invest in Charms that are less effective. Why drain XP away, given their higher costs, a purely mechanical level, and why learn something that you can already do better without learning a fighting system based on the movements of folks who can't shape-shift?

 

[Persell]

Agreed. Though, I think there'd be at least one martial art developed specifically by shapeshifters, for shapeshifters. The charms might have some text saying "Lunars may combo this charm with Attribute based charms" or some such.

 

[memesis]

Agreed. Though, I think there'd be at least one martial art developed specifically by shapeshifters, for shapeshifters. The charms might have some text saying "Lunars may combo this charm with Attribute based charms" or some such.

Alright then.  Let's say some Lunars sit down and define a formal fighting style for themselves.  They could certainly call it "Lunar Martial Arts", but in-game, if they were at all clever, they'd end up with a lot of Attribute-based Charms that probably fall into the Lunar Unarmed Combat tree.  Those Charms might base some of their values on the Lunar's MA ability, if you like.


The alternative is, as mentioned, inefficient for Lunars as they stand.  But how is that better than just devising regular Lunar Charms?  Is it just the cachet of "Martial Arts in Exalted"?  A shapeshifter-driven martial art style isn't going to have a lot of out-of-theme effects anyway, so what is the advantage in NOT making regular Lunar Charms and saying 'Silver Pact Style'?

 

[Obsidian Soul]

Like the Warrior Charm Tree of the Jade born, Lunar Charms are highly effective in their combat usage (though not as effecient).  Lunar can buy Terrestrial and Celestial Martial Arts naturally and can create their own Styles, which isn't too bad.  An Essence 5 Lunar in Deadly Beastman Form who gets +5 to both Stamina and Strength from the Jade Mountain Form is not doing too badly, all things considered, and that's a freaking Terrestrial Style.  Combine that with the effects of their various scene-long Charms or the DB effects and you have one suped up mofo.

 

[Seiraryu]

Really Obsidian?  And why would they want to buy a Terrestrial Style Martial Arts, at a higher cost than their normal Charms, just for +5/+5  soak bonuses, when they can simply buy a few Charms at their own, lower cost, and get +9/+9 (at only -1 Mobility Penalty) with Scales of the Dragon?  Not to mention that something Lunars don't need is extra Strength... I mean... Deadly beastman Transformation, Body Enahncement Charms... I could go on.


It's just cheaper for them to keep to their own bloody Charms.  That's the point the others were trying to make.

 

[Forn Clakes]

I agree that Lunars do get shafted, but the martial arts is the least of my concerns; its the general Charms that annoy me, and i had hoped for some new Charms released before 2nd edition.


Maybe, one day, my wish will be granted  :roll:


~FC.

 

[Persell]

in-game, if they were at all clever, they'd end up with a lot of Attribute-based Charms
...


The alternative is, as mentioned, inefficient

There are, as you say, no good mechanical reasons to do it. That doesn't mean there are no good reasons to do it.


Lunars =/= concerned with XP efficiency. Lunars =/= perfectly knowledgeable of game mechanics. Martial Arts =/= formal fighting style.


You're welcome to come up with whatever motives suit the Lunar.

 

[memesis]

in-game, if they were at all clever, they'd end up with a lot of Attribute-based Charms
...


The alternative is, as mentioned, inefficient

There are, as you say, no good mechanical reasons to do it. That doesn't mean there are no good reasons to do it.


Lunars =/= concerned with XP efficiency. Lunars =/= perfectly knowledgeable of game mechanics. Martial Arts =/= formal fighting style.


You're welcome to come up with whatever motives suit the Lunar.

Alright then, since we're going to play this game..


In Role Playing Games (RPGs), game mechanics are meant to SIMPLY MODEL the behaviors of the proposed world.  By this I mean that they should be representative of how the world works, but they should also not be exercises in physics and chemistry lessons.


On the assumption that the game mechanics for XP, Lunar Charm learning, and so forth all model the "real way" that Lunars learn their magic, we can probably guess that out of several hundred demigods whose intellects dwarf yours and mine, at least a few of them noticed, "hey, learning the magics these guys teach over here is really slow and clunky for us, and following their pattern for building new combat Charms just doesn't feel, y'know, RIGHT".


A few more probably said something along the lines of:  "Well... we sure could use a standard set of combat tricks that we can teach to new Circles or packs that come into the Silver Pact, maybe something that lets them bond better as a pack and still whip Terrestrial ass.  Let's develop some sample Charms here and try them out against that Gavus guy who keeps raiding us.  If they work reliably and well, we can teach them."


Any questions?  You're free to disagree, just don't sit here pretending like there isn't sufficient in-game motivation for Lunars to do their own thing.

 

[Persell]

don't sit here pretending like there isn't sufficient in-game motivation for Lunars to do their own thing.

Huh? I'm not. I only ever claimed that someone would probably have made a martial arts tree that uses shspeshifting. That of course requires the Lunar to have motive to do their own thing.


I think you think I think something other than what I think. Sorry if I confused you.


What I'm saying is that Martial Arts are something different to Lunar Attribute-based charms. They're transcendent blah blah. Someone's gonna get curious, and try to do the transcendent blah blah while shapechanging. Doesn't matter if it's inefficient, someone's gonna want to do it. And because they're demigods, eventually they'll succeed.

 

[ashenphoenix]

Another point that I made on the old EC that covered the thematics stuff.


Martial Arts requires that you're humanoid.


Why the fuck would I want to spend extra effort learning something that is less effective, less versatile and limits my ability to learn anything similar (1 MA at a time limit)?


While the Twilights may not have the maths formulas down pat, but they've got an oratory tradtion of investigation that can kick your ass.


While we're at it, someone also brought up the Lunar's lack of firewands-related charms, which dovetailled into a debate about Righteous Devil Style.


Let's nip that in the bud right here.


Firewands require an extensive infrastructure of mining and similar industrial fascets to support. Lunars don't do that.


And don't get me started on the dodginess that was Kalindo in W:tA.


It fits better with Lunars, but Lunars are fluid and dynamic. Martial Arts are rigid and static (and were designed to be so by the Gods in reflection of Primordials Sorcerous exploits). Lunars would be better served by Brawl trees being universal (which they may be in 2nd Ed.) but not by MA.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I think that the point is they could create a Martial Arts tree, the same as they could alter themselves to be able to stuff jars of wine into their noses, but the question still hasn't been answered as to why they would do either of these things.


ashenpheonix is on the money here. Why would a Lunar, who is about fluidity, create a Martial Art that they couldn't share with anyone else but other Lunars--not their followers--and which would be less efficient than their own Charms?


Lunars learning Martial Arts trees to better blend in with Mortals, so that they could pose as other Exalted beings or God-Bloods? Certainly. Good reason to pick up a Terrestrial or even a Celestial style, so that they could better infiltrate and gather information without getting too much attention. Fantastic there. Picking up, or creating a Terrestrial style that they could teach their followers who could channel Essence? Fantastic.


Creating a style, just for themselves, that wouldn't be as efficient as their own fighting style? As a thought exercise? The only good reason I could see would be to teach young Lunars about control and to channel Essence,  kind of like Tai Chi or Chi Gong, but even those examples would be less efficient than their own Charms, and it goes against the grain of theme of Lunars.  


If you really did want to create a Martial Arts style for Lunars, it would be something from their civilized days, something that might have been used as a teaching tool from the First Age, and that means only VERY old Lunars would have it--and why would they teach such a limiting thing to their proteges, when so much has to be done, right now?


It would be like me needing to have bouncers on the floor for a new club next month, and trying to teach them Chi Gong first. Chi Gong is useful as hell--but it's not what you teach when you need fellas to handle rough trade. And the Lunars need more younglings to handle rough trade.


Maybe later, when the Creation calms down, the First Age Lunars will dust off these thought exercises, from a more civilized age. But you don't teach Marquis of Queensbury rules boxing to guys who are going into a bareknuckle street fights.

 

[Persell]

Why would a Lunar' date=' who is about fluidity, create a Martial Art that they couldn't share with anyone else but other Lunars--not their followers--and which would be less efficient than their own Charms?[/quote']
To tread a path of cosmic enlightenment and become more attuned to that aspect of Creation.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Perhaps, but Lunars are limited. Just like the Gods. Just like the Terrestrials. And the Lunars of the First Age would know that.  


Again, teaching Martial Arts so that Lunars would know their place better is a wonderful tool--but not one that the Lunars can afford the luxury of right now.  


When the Creation is being assaulted from all sides--from Malfeans, from Yozi, from Behemoths, from Fair Folk, from within and these powers pawns--I just don't think that it is either thematically appropriate, not is it an efficient use of a Lunar's talents to create a form just for themselves, not when they are better suited to explore the limits of their own forms.  Not when they are engaged in what amounts to a war.  Martial Arts for Lunars would be fine, if they had more time.

 

[shifty]

I think that is really the perfect time to study a fighting art.  Because while part of fighting is knowing yourself, a great deal of Exalted martial art is manipulating essence.  And short of teaching sorcery, martial arts are pretty dang good way of learning that.

 

[Seiraryu]

It's a perfect time to study a martial arts, yes.  But it's an even BETTER time to refine and define what a Lunar Exalt can do with her own, natural powers.  Not to go off galavanting on some Essence-manipulation quest to better oneself, even if that makes the Exalt a good fighter.


Lunars have abilities that have much more potential than their current Charms suggest...they should be maximizing that before they start branching off.

 

[ashenphoenix]

People have been edging about this until now:


Lunars may have a No-Moon Art.


It makes sense, mechanics-wise, as well as thematicly.


No-Moons get a reduced cost for sorcery. That's wonderful.


But how do they protect themselves while they're using it?


Lunars lack scene-long charms (which the form charm could provide) other than DBT.


Also, the structure of the MA could aid in the learning about the structre of Sorcery.


The problem with a Lunar-specific MA is that it can also be learnt by others, and the No-Moons are kinda protective of their secrets.

 

[shifty]

It's a perfect time to study a martial arts, yes.  But it's an even BETTER time to refine and define what a Lunar Exalt can do with her own, natural powers.  Not to go off galavanting on some Essence-manipulation quest to better oneself, even if that makes the Exalt a good fighter.
Lunars have abilities that have much more potential than their current Charms suggest...they should be maximizing that before they start branching off.

Who says quest?  Who says eldar lunars dont already know that stuff?  Who says that if it really were war, eldar lunars wouldnt be teaching that?  I can certainly imagine that during the off times during the first age someone tought a Lunar some martial arts, and some Lunars decided to maximize it to the fullest with shapeshifting.  


The second part is your interpretation.  If there were no tells, then the shapeshifting combat charms that lunars have would be greatly balanced.  Cause then you would have sneaky trickster assassins.

 

[ashenphoenix]

The second part is your interpretation.  If there were no tells, then the shapeshifting combat charms that lunars have would be greatly balanced.  Cause then you would have sneaky trickster assassins.

I'm not sure what side of the argument you're on, but you do get them being sneaky trickster assassins - especially with Hide of the Cunning Hunter and Masking the Brilliant Form.


The Tell is only stacked when the Lunars purchase DBT. There are other combat charms that kick the ass of anything else out there. You have to actually notice the person to notice the Tell.


Also the charm structures (based on attributes) of the Lunars allow more flexible combo rules than those available to most other Exalts.


I'm not sure that I get your point.