Lost Lunar Castes

[Balota]

Ok I am reading the Lunar book and have found something I find terribly interesting. Through the use of a background and a certain type of Casteless, you could legally play a Waxing, Waning or Half Moon Lunar again.


Using Taboo to help you keep control of yourself you could keep connected to one caste that is of the three lost without every being tattooed. Unless I am reading this wrong.


Next who would teach you this? Well there is a group in the Threshold that are independent of the Silver Pack that are teaching that Moon silver tattoos are against Luna's original intent.


Someone among this group could figure that out and become the first to return one of the old castes back to creation. And as long as you are not to often in the wyld the taboos would not be to bad.


Give me your ideas?

 

[Gtroc]

well here is an idea, maybe with the return of the solars a twilight and a no-moon get together, and using there combined abilities and knowledge come up with tattoos that define the missing castes of lunars. it would not be that hard, compared to some of the other quests that a solar could get involved in. the basics of tatooing the castes are well known amongst the lunars, all you would need was knowledge of the origional castes and the ability to do things perfectly. just a wierd though I had though.

 

[Vanman]

Why would a returning Solar remember what the ancient Lunars do not? Particularly when the Solar wasn't around when the other Castes were lost?


Then again, having said that, maybe something is hidden in the Solar's ancient manse or something like that which might help. I don't necessarily ask the questions above to negate the idea but, rather, to force you to think about why the knowledge was lost and how a Solar and a recent Lunar could figure out what the ancient Lunars could not.....

 

[Gtroc]

the lunar could remember what the ancient lunar castes were like. I did not say that it had to be a young lunar. or there could be an ancient text or something to discover. I mean it can't be as hard as curing the great curse, or helping an abyssal become a solar essence again. the reason that the lunars could not save all the castes was two fold, in my opinion. first they were rushed, they had a limmited time before the wyld drove them to chimerahood. second they were not solars, meaning they do not have charms for perfection, also they do not have the solars grasp on magic. no moons are good, don't get me wrong, but they are not twilights or even another solar. I think it could be done, and it would make one hell of an epic quest. I did not say it would be easy, merely easier than some of the other daunting tasks laid before the reborn lawgivers.

 

[Persell]

Taboo just doesn't work that way though.  It only provides defense against the effects of the Wyld on the character.


The reason that the castes were losts and truncated into one is not because the Lunars could not devise the tattoos, but because they lost the ability to naturally emulate those castes at all.  The rules concerning the Casteless are crystal clear about this - your caste ability is the same as the current phase of the moon, changing moon encompassing the Waxing, Half and Waning phases of the moon.  Long story short - a Casteless can NEVER emulate one of the lost castes, nor can one be taught to do so, and even if they could, taboo wouldn't give them the ability to stay in that caste longer than the Moon overhead allowed.


Hate to rain on the parade, but if you go by what the book explicitly states, such an endeavor could never be successful.

 

[Balota]

Sato


I will look up the taboo thing again I am not sure on right now but the three caste where lost because they could not tie them down with the Moonsilver tattoos. not because they could not emulate them at all. matter of fact the eldest lunar that died not to long ago on his death bed hiis waxing moon caste mark lit up and he did some orcale work.

 

[Persell]

Page 28 is pretty definitive on it's answers to this issue, although it does have some ambiguity on a few things.  Some portions of the text suggest that there is a unique process involved with the tattoos of each caste, while other passages suggest that the tattoos just lock the Lunar into an immutable state, where the Lunar's form becomes inviolate and the current phase of the moon is secured as a permanent caste.  I don't particularly care the truth of the matter, since the author doesn't seem keen on removing the "mystery" of the whole affair in favor for hard mechanical truths.


The bottom line, though, is that there is nothing defining the lost castes in any fashion, and there is no way for a Casteless to return to one of those lost paths... but then again, perhaps there is a spot in Creation where Luna shines bright, and a savvy Steward COULD perhaps regain such lost castes... but it would be a narrative experience, not one mitigated by the printed rules.  


Although... considering that the whole Lunar experience is based around the THREE attribute areas, I haven't the foggiest idea of how First Age Lunars defined themselves... I personally don't like the lost Castes concept... they only exist because Lunars are incompatible with the 5-caste template all the other Exalts... so, rather than just saying they were created different, they said they started with 5, came up with some C-n-B story about lost castes and never even suggested how the lost castes might function.  They can never and will never return because they don't fit into the system.

 

[skafte]

Using the return of solars to find the lost castes again have also been an idea i had.


I have 2 versions to why it may work.


1: The stability of the solars back in Creations, together with it being more safe for Lunars to stend all their time inside Creation will over time repair the mutation of the shards and in this way stabilice the castes again.


2: An idea I just got. Somehow using a charm that to the best of my knowledge Solars are the only ones that have anything like it (can't remember about Abyssals, but same point, they wasn't around untill now). Using Order-Affirming Blow on an not yet tattooed Lunar and keep doing it till you punch their shard back to order. Or maybe just 'catch' the Lunar shard when it leaves the dying body and then use the charm.

 

[Persell]

The attribute spread for the lost castes is in the lunars book, so there is nothing foggy about it.


I think the quthors left the details deliberately clear for gamemasters to toy around with the concept. Every possiblity leads to some pretty good campaign/chronicle ideas/concepts.

 

[Persell]

The attribute spread for the lost castes is in the lunars book, so there is nothing foggy about it.
I think the quthors left the details deliberately clear for gamemasters to toy around with the concept. Every possiblity leads to some pretty good campaign/chronicle ideas/concepts.

Must have skipped that part by accident then.  Other than brief, shallow descriptions I haven't seen anything that describes the lost castes in any detail.  Do you have a page number you can point me to?


I will say though, that recovering the lost castes really CAN'T (for the integrity of the game) be an easy thing.  It is a huge aspect of the Lunars and would be akin to the Solars finding a cure for the great curse.  Like I said in a previous post, you can throw the rules to the wind and create a means to recovering these lost castes, but it's not going to be done by a loop hole in the existing rules.

 

[Dracogryff]

'Tis the boxed text on page 230 of the Lunar book. It's pretty nifty...although if I were to do a 'recover the lost castes' chronicle, I'd go and make my own anima powers...the ones they give them pretty much suck. Aside from the No Moons, anyhow...and that bugs me. That one caste got all the good stuff while the others have to make do with either tolerable (Fulls) or pretty worthless.


Though that could be an interesting plot twist on the 'No Moons aren't fixing the castes because they like being priests' arc they offer...they've set up their anima powers like they are as well as breaking the Waxing Moons...and so they don't want to fix them because they'd lose their powers and the preist merit...

 

[Persell]

Thanks for the reference, definitely something I've overlooked.  I never read these books front to back - I just generally peck my way through and hope I pick up some neat tidbits.

 

[Persell]

Depending on which way you go, bringing back the lost castes can be quite easy or extremely difficult, but I don't think it is anything like curing the great curse. In first edition there were even canon references on lunars seeking out twilights to help them fix the castes.

 

[Persell]

I dunno man, the Lunars have been working on this for a LONG time... something makes me doubt it would be "easy".  Without significant divine intervention, I don't see it happening any time soon.  Like I mentioned before, Casteless have no problem with the full moon and no moon aspects, but when it comes to the remaining three, they end up just going changing.  Also, a point I want to reiterate - the book makes vague references to a lot of things concerning castes and the tattoos, but the only really descriptive thing basically says that a Lunar is tattooed with their name and a list of their deeds, and whatever aspect of the moon they are currently emulating becomes their permanent caste.  Perhaps I'm off basis here, but from that I derive that a Lunar, as a casteless, needs to be able to emulate the proper caste before it can be made permanent.  The tattooing process isn't lacking, it's the Lunar's ability to assume those castes all together.


As I've said before, I don't believe for a second that there is a loop hole contained in the rules that paves the way for the recovery of these castes.  Perhaps though, things have been left vague enough that a ST could bring them back plausibly if they wanted.  


I just tend to default to the position that senselessly changing the fundamental aspects of the game without damn good reason is just kinda hoaky - lots of STs seem to want to dramatically renovate the games they run by turning things on their head, breaking every rule they see bothersome and drastically rewriting the atmosphere of the game as their whim dictates and concluding that the changes make the game "better"... end of the day though, the lost castes being recovered is only as epic as the sacrifice that was made to do so.  By all means, bring them back if you'd like, but I'd urge any ST who was thinking of doing so - Don't look to the book for rules on how to do it, look to the book to devise a way to make it the greatest and most epic undertaking any Lunar has ever accomplished.  Otherwise you're just taking a perfectly good exalted type, removing a large chunk of the flaws that make them interesting and turning them into a boring twinkish reflection of their first age selves.

 

[Persell]

Perhaps fixing the castes is easy. Perhaps the no moons could have done it all the time. Perhaps they just like their new role as priests.


Perhaps you should try looking behind the superficial things before trying to tell people that they are bad storytellers for not having the same vision as you.


Btw. The canonical point of view of fixing the castes: Get a twilight and we get it done. It was stated several times in the first edition caste books.


Furthermore I agree with you. Everyone introducing a new kind of exalt, spellcasters stolen from books or whatever else should probably get their head checked or something like that.

 

[Balota]

I was just looking for an intresting aspect to play in the game or add to a game.


A Casteless that suddenly figured out how to capture back one of the old castes. *giving that they gave all the powers for those castes in the new book something they never gave before* Would be an instresting plot line to cover, one where certain theories can be explored.


What made the caste marks go crazy was the wyld. But now that the Wyld Hunt isn't as strong as it was and the Lunars can now stay outside of the Wyld almost permanently. Then perhaps a casteless that has never been exposed to the wyld or has not been exposed for long periods of time found something by mistake that the No Moon's could not duplicate because of thier exile into the near wyld.

 

[Persell]

The shards were warped by the wyld over a millenium ago. I can't see how your casteless buddy suddenly has an uncorrupted shard...

 

[Balota]

Lives that where lived outside of the wyld, caused lessing degrees of warping.


Perhaps because the shard is divine that over time and away from the wyld element that it would clean itself ot the taint. And over the last Millinumn thier hasn't been a chance to do that untill just resently.

 

[Persell]

Perhaps fixing the castes is easy. Perhaps the no moons could have done it all the time. Perhaps they just like their new role as priests.
Perhaps you should try looking behind the superficial things before trying to tell people that they are bad storytellers for not having the same vision as you.


Btw. The canonical point of view of fixing the castes: Get a twilight and we get it done. It was stated several times in the first edition caste books.


Furthermore I agree with you. Everyone introducing a new kind of exalt, spellcasters stolen from books or whatever else should probably get their head checked or something like that.

Perhaps my wording was too patronizing.  I wasn't trying to suggest that anyone's a bad ST, just that it's a common pitfall and I'm advocating a "look before you leap" methodology.  I still think you guys are downplaying the seriousness of this issue and there's a strong enough case to say that it's out of Exalted hands.  Each person runs their own game and really only has to answer to their own opinions when all is said and done - so do what you think is cool.  For the purposes of the game that you run, my opinion really doesn't matter - for the purposes of this discussion, I've weighed in with my opinion and it counts as much as any other.

 

[Gtroc]

 I still think you guys are downplaying the seriousness of this issue and there's a strong enough case to say that it's out of Exalted hands.

how can you claim that? I have yet to run into an issue that is "out of Exalted hands". they can do ANYTHING, in theory any way. these are the guys that started out their careers by killing something that could not be killed, and caging what could not be caged. honestly after defeating the primordials anything else is pretty much childs play. no I will admit that fixing the Lunar's castes would be dificult, even impossible but how is that different from anything else the exalts do? just my two cents on the matter.

 

[Persell]

There are plenty of things celestial Exalts are unable to do: reproduce and proliferate their numbers among the list.  Sure, they can have kids galore but the best they can do is a measley half caste (by sheer happenstance); they cannot deliberately create an entirely new shard.


Celestial Exalts have thus far been unable to make any notable modifications to the nature of their own shards.


And let us not overplay the ramifactions of the Primordial War... there is plenty of evidence that without Autocthon to equip the lot of them with advanced weaponry (the likes of which the Solars, even at their height, were strained to equal), the Gods would have lost.  Without Autochthon, the history of the Exalts would have ended there on the battlefields of the ancient threshold.  Some of the greatest of Solar accomplishments were achieved only through the assistance of beings infinitely greater than themselves.  The entire moral message of the first age is that the Solars, without that assistance, just F'ed everything up... ALL the Exalts did, regardless of however their individual politics protest otherwise.  The Second Age is about how far all the Exalted of fallen... all that they had lost.  If that loss equates to a scratched knee, that the lunars can just pick themselves up and easily recover everything that had been lost trivializes the epic scale of the Lunar saga.


Yes, the Solars are badass, but even they in solid numbers have limitations.  And let's presume for a moment: sure, at the height of the first age, there may have been the means to accomplish such a feat as restoring the lost castes (preemptive though it may have been at that point), but considering the extensive research equipment lost to time and a large portion of their shards stolen and corrupted, the Solars of the current age are VERY hard pressed to repeat any of their former accomplishments.  The Sidereals can't even manage the feats of the first age and they've lost the least of all the Exalted.


I'm not saying that it's impossible, or that it wont happen, and that if it does that Exalts will have no roll in it.  What I am saying is that all that really matters is the story involved... do whatever you want with it, just don't make it cliched or boring.  Don't make it easy.

 

[skafte]

i have been thinking about the nature of the warping of Lunar shards. Is it the Lunars shards as a whole, or is it the single shard that got warped back then?


If it's the later, my idea was a shard that for some reason go after big city living heroes to exalt. So most of the times it have been on The Blessed Isle it have exalted someone, or in a major city where the wyld hunt have had easy access to kill it.


This shard have never since the usupation exalted anybody that have lived more than a few months, and never been exposed to the wyld - never got warped.


Now that the hunt is almost none existing this shard would be albe to survive and on it's own find it's caste and get fixed into one of the lost castes.


Actually, this could have happend to more than one shard, the other shards have just been found by the Silver Pac, tattooed and never got a chance to prove that they was not warped.

 

[Persell]

And let us not overplay the ramifactions of the Primordial War... there is plenty of evidence that without Autocthon to equip the lot of them with advanced weaponry (the likes of which the Solars, even at their height, were strained to equal), the Gods would have lost.  Without Autochthon, the history of the Exalts would have ended there on the battlefields of the ancient threshold.  Some of the greatest of Solar accomplishments were achieved only through the assistance of beings infinitely greater than themselves.  The entire moral message of the first age is that the Solars, without that assistance, just F'ed everything up... ALL the Exalts did, regardless of however their individual politics protest otherwise.  The Second Age is about how far all the Exalted of fallen... all that they had lost.  If that loss equates to a scratched knee, that the lunars can just pick themselves up and easily recover everything that had been lost trivializes the epic scale of the Lunar saga.


Yes, the Solars are badass, but even they in solid numbers have limitations.  And let's presume for a moment: sure, at the height of the first age, there may have been the means to accomplish such a feat as restoring the lost castes (preemptive though it may have been at that point), but considering the extensive research equipment lost to time and a large portion of their shards stolen and corrupted, the Solars of the current age are VERY hard pressed to repeat any of their former accomplishments.  The Sidereals can't even manage the feats of the first age and they've lost the least of all the Exalted.

You are reading things into canon that are not there.


First. Alterations to shards have been made. One solar made a promise that lasts through his exaltations, several made bargains that last through theirs. the list goes on, albeit I confess, that this is a rather weak point.


Second. Autochton was nowhere to be seen when the greatest of all wonders were made. Sure, he helped building the sword of creation, but that's it. All the skyships the solar made later on are vastly superior to big A's work, all the powerarmour, the later daiklaives etc. etc.


Third. Canon says the solars can fix the castes. Caste book twilight does hint so. And actually... to quote the exalted core rulebook page 211 on typical targets for crafts:


"Craft charms usually affect objects and structures. It is possible to affect automata (living artifacts) and even creatures with craft charms, but few of those charms are presented here. Promises, dremans and hopes do not count as objects unless they are made tangible through some other effects."


Read the last paragraph again. Now tell me what should stop a solar from fixing the castes?


We basically have two options.


a) Celestial essences fall into the same category as dreams and hopes. Actually I'd call bullshit on that, but I suppose you will make a call on that one cause it fits your arguement.


Well, then we only need something to help us seeing a shard, yes? Well, that means we either go visit good ole lytek in his office or we build us some variant of the monstrance. Both options fully supported by canon.


b) Celestial essences are "objects". Well easy, whip out all encompassing sorcerors sight and get going.

I'm not saying that it's impossible, or that it wont happen, and that if it does that Exalts will have no roll in it.  What I am saying is that all that really matters is the story involved... do whatever you want with it, just don't make it cliched or boring.  Don't make it easy.

I had to quote that again. Some of the wisest words ever spoken on that forum. I might disagree with you canonically but i agree with the storytelling intent.

 

[Jukashi]

I think what's mainly being objected to is the whole "oh, I hung around in a city for a while, so now I'm not in danger of becoming a chimera anymore!" thing, which undermines the theme of the Lunars struggling with the bestial madness that lurks in their hearts. Fixing the castes wouldn't be impossible, sure; it should just be an epic quest to accomplish.

 

[Persell]

You are reading things into canon that are not there.
First. Alterations to shards have been made. One solar made a promise that lasts through his exaltations, several made bargains that last through theirs. the list goes on, albeit I confess, that this is a rather weak point.


Second. Autochton was nowhere to be seen when the greatest of all wonders were made. Sure, he helped building the sword of creation, but that's it. All the skyships the solar made later on are vastly superior to big A's work, all the powerarmour, the later daiklaives etc. etc.


Third. Canon says the solars can fix the castes. Caste book twilight does hint so. And actually... to quote the exalted core rulebook page 211 on typical targets for crafts:


"Craft charms usually affect objects and structures. It is possible to affect automata (living artifacts) and even creatures with craft charms, but few of those charms are presented here. Promises, dremans and hopes do not count as objects unless they are made tangible through some other effects."


Read the last paragraph again. Now tell me what should stop a solar from fixing the castes?


We basically have two options.


a) Celestial essences fall into the same category as dreams and hopes. Actually I'd call bullshit on that, but I suppose you will make a call on that one cause it fits your arguement.


Well, then we only need something to help us seeing a shard, yes? Well, that means we either go visit good ole lytek in his office or we build us some variant of the monstrance. Both options fully supported by canon.


b) Celestial essences are "objects". Well easy, whip out all encompassing sorcerors sight and get going.

I'm not saying that it's impossible, or that it wont happen, and that if it does that Exalts will have no roll in it.  What I am saying is that all that really matters is the story involved... do whatever you want with it, just don't make it cliched or boring.  Don't make it easy.

I had to quote that again. Some of the wisest words ever spoken on that forum. I might disagree with you canonically but i agree with the storytelling intent.

I based those words concerning Autochthon on one of the introductory segments of the Wonders book that describes the armaments that were crafted and bestowed by him and his children to the Exalted on the eve of the primordial war - many of these weapons were damaged or captured by the primodials before the end of the war and the remainders falling into disrepair after the war ended.  Perhaps I am not properly recalling the segment, but I felt what I delivered was a pretty decent paraphrase (although, at work, I am unable to double check).  I dunno man, I have a hard time believing that the Solars ever did anything that was as great as even the most humble device ever conceived by Autochthon - the guy thought BIG.  No warstrider or airship could ever surpass the achievement of devising the process of Exaltation.  Even if they could rival him at the height of the first age, that was only after centuries of building up their resources to create a vast industrial complex able to consistantly churn out amazing things.  The Twilights of the Age of Sorrows have fallen from a tremendous hieght.


As for the examples of vows lasting through incarnations, celestial shards do oftentimes retain memories of their previous lifetimes, but these are not deliberate alterations but rather just sideeffects of a defect in the reincarnation process.  If Lytek did a better job, perhaps none of these things would have happened.  A meal may leave a smudge of dried food upon a plate after it leaves the dishwasher, but one could hardly suggest that the meal has indelibly altered the nature of the plate... a crude analogy, but not entirely inappropriate.  I don't see the examples you cited as the equivalent of say, curing the great curse or restoring the equilibrium of the entirety of Lunar society.


But whatever I don't think we're going to necessarily come to an agreement here and we're quickly reaching the point where we're just splitting hairs.  If you want to refute anything I've said in this post, be my guest, I appretiate the compliment you paid me in that last segment, and I think this whole thing has been an interesting and fun debate.  Bottom line is I'm running out of new material.