Lillun Dies. What happens next?

[MrMephistopheles]

Yozis unable to create Solar circle spells? I don't think so. Quite the opposite. It's rather clear that Sorcery comes from them originally in the first place. Infernal Sorcery lets ANYONE who can learn it' date=' even a Mortal Akuma, gain access to the Solar Circle. The Yozis most certainly can create and use Solar level Sorcery.[/quote']
Depends on which chapter you take as official. I go with the "one circle up" version presented in the Akuma chapter, rather than the one in the Charms chapter.

From what I remember when this was brought up to Neph the intention was they all get access to all three circles of sorcery. And yeah..the Yozis can definitely make third circle sorcery.

 

[Ker'ion]

I was always of the opinion that the Primordials had access to a higher level of Sorcery akin to Shaping that was used to create large scale effects, such as Creation, etc. that could only be used by super-high Essence beings, like 15+.

 

[Thanqol]

I was always of the opinion that the Primordials had access to a higher level of Sorcery akin to Shaping that was used to create large scale effects' date=' such as Creation, etc. that could only be used by super-high Essence beings, like 15+.[/quote']
I was actually of the opinion that Sorcery was their real language. Old Realm became their language after their maiming.

 

[Plague of Hats]

From what I remember when this was brought up to Neph the intention was they all get access to all three circles of sorcery. And yeah..the Yozis can definitely make third circle sorcery.

Of course, Mr. Goodwin was also operating under the assumption that "mortal akuma" were demon-blooded who got demon-blooded Charms, i.e., incapable of learning Yozi Charms, which includes Yozi sorcery initiations. "Mortal akuma" gaining access to Yozi Charms is a really bad idea.

I was always of the opinion that the Primordials had access to a higher level of Sorcery akin to Shaping that was used to create large scale effects' date=' such as Creation, etc. that could only be used by super-high Essence beings, like 15+.[/quote']Eh, at some point the scale just has to stop and the differences of power need to be based more on the distinction of just what you're dealing with instead of whether or not it has bigger numbers. Creation-forming sorcery/Charms are the kinds of things that involve spending many hundreds or even thousands of motes. These are placed out of the reach of others thematically and cost-wise, instead of by inventing a "truer, even more hidden" power level. Of course, such limitations can sometimes be overcome through artifice, "regular" sorcery and teamwork, but that's true of most limitations.

I was actually of the opinion that Sorcery was their real language. Old Realm became their language after their maiming.

If they existed in any meaningful fashion as they do now, before Creation they had communities of souls that would have communicated in less abstract ways than their titanic sources. That's probably the source of Old Realm, which became a sort of "universal root tongue" for all the "little" people when the Primordials built Creation. But the titans themselves communicating amongst themselves through sorcerous action is pretty cool, and can lend them a usable sense of inscrutability that need not have a beginning or end based on their imprisonment.

 

[Chaka]

I was always of the opinion that the Primordials had access to a higher level of Sorcery akin to Shaping that was used to create large scale effects' date=' such as Creation, etc. that could only be used by super-high Essence beings, like 15+.[/quote']
Essence caps at 10. However, one Essence 10 is not necessarily equivalent to another.

 

[Ker'ion]

Essence caps at 10 for Exalts and gods in First Edition. I thought Second Edition said otherwise.


And I believe that Primordials start with an Essence above 10.


In my game, Malfeas has an Essence of 50. My homebrew Primordial that was made to cover for the missing Primordial had an Essence of 47 and a Charm that gave her a magical no penalties flurry with a number of actions equal to her permanent Essence.


She was a nice Primordial though and tried to avoid fighting.

 

[Thanqol]

I call BS on Primordials having Essence above 10. Otherwise how did the Exalts ever win?


I just figure they've got lots of Essence 10 beings in the form of their 3rd Circle souls, giving them very high 'total essence', rather than some silly Essence score no one else can ever reach.

 

[Chaka]

Essence caps at 10 for Exalts and gods in First Edition. I thought Second Edition said otherwise.
And I believe that Primordials start with an Essence above 10.


In my game, Malfeas has an Essence of 50. My homebrew Primordial that was made to cover for the missing Primordial had an Essence of 47 and a Charm that gave her a magical no penalties flurry with a number of actions equal to her permanent Essence.


She was a nice Primordial though and tried to avoid fighting.

Every writer ever over on the WW forums has stated that Essence always, always, always caps at ten.

 

[Kyeudo]

Essence 10 has seemed a reasonable cap for Deathlords, Exalts, and such, but it doesn't seem high enough for Incarnae and the Primordials. For them, I'd go maybe as high as 20 for someone like Malfeas or Sol Invictus, but not often.

 

[Chaka]

Essence 10 has seemed a reasonable cap for Deathlords, Exalts, and such, but it doesn't seem high enough for Incarnae and the Primordials. For them, I'd go maybe as high as 20 for someone like Malfeas or Sol Invictus, but not often.

As you like, but that's a houserule.


The system always caps at ten.

 

[Kyeudo]

Except when it caps at 5. Why Virtues cap at 5 is beyond me.

 

[Chaka]

Technically Virtues cap at 6 with the appropriate merits.

 

[Thanqol]

Because after you've got a Virtue at 5 the next step is Cosmic Transcendence of (Virtue) and by that point you're not even human any more.

 

[Ker'ion]

Because after you've got a Virtue at 5 the next step is Cosmic Transcendence of (Virtue) and by that point you're not even human any more.

That would be after you pass Virtue 6, as per Scroll of Heroes "Paragon of Virtue".
And I guess I was using the First Edition rules on Essence caps, as they went above Essence 10, while the Q&A section in the White Wolf Exalted Wiki says nothing goes over Essence 10 in Second Edition.


http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Answers01#Essence_Ratings_Over_10


[EDIT:] Paragon of [Virtue], Scroll of Heroes, page 54.


And gods and demons can break the Virtue 5 cap without this Merit anyways.

 

[Plague of Hats]

And I guess I was using the First Edition rules on Essence caps, as they went above Essence 10, while the Q&A section in the White Wolf Exalted Wiki says nothing goes over Essence 10 in Second Edition.
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Answers01#Essence_Ratings_Over_10

With the exception of some poorly written stuff from the Locust War in Autochthonians, nothing in First Edition ever discussed or went above Essence 10. That kind of stuff just never got any play in the books.
Glories will certainly help to solidify the Essence 10 cap, if not set it in stone, and if Mr. Goodwin ever gets to show us full stats for a titan it will be plenty concrete.

Because after you've got a Virtue at 5 the next step is Cosmic Transcendence of (Virtue) and by that point you're not even human any more.

That would be after you pass Virtue 6, as per Scroll of Heroes "Paragon of Virtue".
[EDIT:] Paragon of [Virtue], Scroll of Heroes, page 54.


And gods and demons can break the Virtue 5 cap without this Merit anyways.

According to Stephen, the gods with Virtues at 6 in Compass: Yu-Shan were a mistake. They should have been edited to 5, but were missed.
Paragon of (Virtue), like many other Merits, is not very good. "+1 die and another channel" is not where transcendent Virtue should go. Look to Epic Zeal/Cosmic Transcendence. Much like Essence, Virtues should stop growing up and start growing out once they reach a certain point. For Virtues, that point is 5.

 

[Ker'ion]

It doesn't say "an extra die" it says "an extra dot".


"For most characters, Virtues are capped at 5, but a character with this Merit raises that cap to 6. If a character already has an Essence cap higher than 5 for whatever reason, this Merit raises the cap by one additional dot."


Please read the book before quoting it.

 

[Plague of Hats]

It doesn't say "an extra die" it says "an extra dot".
"For most characters, Virtues are capped at 5, but a character with this Merit raises that cap to 6. If a character already has an Essence cap higher than 5 for whatever reason, this Merit raises the cap by one additional dot."


Please read the book before quoting it.

...
And what does that extra dot do?


That's right.

 

[Ker'ion]

But there are specific things that state they give you an extra die, not an extra dot, therefore there is a difference in game play terms.


And you can replace Conviction with your prefered Virtue for regaining Willpower every day.


Besides, it's only a three point Merit and it breaks the max cap on a Virtue. I'd say that's a fair cost.

 

[Plague of Hats]

But there are specific things that state they give you an extra die' date=' not an extra dot, therefore there is a difference in game play terms.[/quote']I was not directly quoting the merit. It was a smarmy paraphrase.

And you can replace Conviction with your prefered Virtue for regaining Willpower every day.

Which would be an okay and potentially interesting Merit on its own. As it is, it's a weird sideline tacked on to the end of a bland Merit.

Besides, it's only a three point Merit and it breaks the max cap on a Virtue. i'd say that's a fair cost.

It's not terribly broken, but it is terribly boring. "The bravest of brave men" should not be "+1 trait rating." This is largely the same problem with all the other Merits in Heroes that aren't actually badly broken. If they're not broken, they're boring.

 

[Ker'ion]

1 is a wuss


2 is able to stand up to a bully


3 can deal with a deadly battle, goblins and such.


4 will fight enraged barbarians or the Fair Folk cataphracts.


5 will fight the undead, Fair Folk behemoths, Elemental Dragons and other stuff that's completely off the wall.


So 6 is a ballsy mother******, fighting off mindbending Lovecraftian nightmares and then sitting down for a plate of spaghetti with calamari.

 

[Kyeudo]

A 1-dot increase to my main Virtue is the kind of benefit some of my characters would kill for. That's not just 1 die, it's 6 dice, spread out across 6 of the most important rolls of the story (if you can read your Storyteller with any reasobable accuracy).

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

I call BS on Primordials having Essence above 10. Otherwise how did the Exalts ever win?
I just figure they've got lots of Essence 10 beings in the form of their 3rd Circle souls, giving them very high 'total essence', rather than some silly Essence score no one else can ever reach.

Doesn't matter what their Essence caps at, with custom charms, abilities, different rules, etc. An Essence 10 Solar is not the same as an Essence 10 Primordial, period. It's why they needed 700 Celestials, countless DB's, mind blowing artifacts from Autochthon, and still most of Creation was nearly destroyed. They've never stated exactly how much was destroyed, but, I'm under the belief that Creation's current form maybe, MAYBE, is 10% of the original. She Who Lives In Her Name destroyed not only land, but entire concepts from existence. What Essence 10 Solar can do that?


In reaility, the only reason you'd need higher than Essence 10 is for charms that require an Essence roll or use Essence to defend. Primordials probably had abilities to bump up those numbers, despite max of 10 Essence.

 

[Thanqol]

Doesn't matter what their Essence caps at, with custom charms, abilities, different rules, etc. An Essence 10 Solar is not the same as an Essence 10 Primordial, period. It's why they needed 700 Celestials, countless DB's, mind blowing artifacts from Autochthon, and still most of Creation was nearly destroyed. They've never stated exactly how much was destroyed, but, I'm under the belief that Creation's current form maybe, MAYBE, is 10% of the original. She Who Lives In Her Name destroyed not only land, but entire concepts from existence. What Essence 10 Solar can do that?


In reaility, the only reason you'd need higher than Essence 10 is for charms that require an Essence roll or use Essence to defend. Primordials probably had abilities to bump up those numbers, despite max of 10 Essence.

Well no. An Essence 10 Solar isn't the same as an Essence 10 Primordial. But that Solar is oddly similar in power level to a Third Circle Demon. Perhaps I'm seeing the War in a different light from you, though. For one thing, it was a battle between multiple Essence 10's - which is TERRIFYING ENOUGH - rather than between an Essence 10 and an Essence 9000+. And I imagine that a lot of the Solars never cleared Essence 6 until after the War. Essence 10 is the bit where your charms become roughly equal to Solar Circle Sorcery.


But that's the thing with Exalted. People have different power scales, not greater or weaker power scales. SWLIHN had the power to destroy entire concepts, yes, but can she do something as simple as shapeshift into a bird? No.


(For the record, I imagine that the World of Exalted /used to be/ the World of Darkness before SWLIHN destroyed the concept of 'technology')


EDIT: And the ability to 'bump up those numbers'? We call 'em charms. Even Excellencies.