Infernals

[8 Drunken Gods]

Okay, I've read through the Yozi's portion of Games of Devinity and scrolled through the Players Guide, learning about the Akuma and Demon-Blooded.


 I find WW very interesting in that they like to give you enough to create your own infernals, ie Demon: The Fallen, but doesn't provide too much as far as stats are concerned.  


 Phil Brucado the Mage developer had stated that he was not going to publish a Nephandi guide, however the Sorceror's Crusade offshoot provided us with an Infernals Guide.  It was a good resource, but still had no character creation.


 Would anyone else like an "Exalted: Infernals" hardcover?  Has anyone heard whether it's in development?


 Perhaps just a supplement with ideas for your own 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Circle Demons is needed?


 I like the work that went into Abyssals and the Book of Bone and Ebony.  To leave us so little about the other sect of the defeated Primordials is definately a tease

 

[psychoph]

I personally wouldn't want a Infernals player cration rules.  As a storyteller only resource it would be excellent, but to me playing infernals would be like running around as evil characters in d20 not all that great of a stroy.


I have heard of games liek this working ok but the majority have been fuck your neighbor and much as posisbel and just try to be as nasty as you can.


That being said I really don't see Abyssal or Faire Folk games that are centered around destroying creation being all that much different, since both of these have alternative story lines maybe it would be posisbel to run something of an Infernal Exalted game that did something other then try to fuck every person in creation over.

 

[cyl]

I do think they can have their own existence as interesting playable characters...


While they certainly lack the freedom of will that the others exalts enjoy, they're slave to the yozis after all, they have a large area of freedom of action... they have to do some evil in the world, because that's why they're here, it's their purpose, but they can do it their way...


If they succeed there will be gratifications, powers and promises of more powers, if they fail, the word pain will not be enough to describe what they will undergo...


But if not for the free will... they're not different from abyssals... they have powerful patrons that command them, and access to great wealths and powers and are doomed to do evil... but unlike all Abs, they lust for it... so they can become interesting PC

 

[Flagg]

I think the current rules given in the PG, as well as the writeup of Dukantha in B&S are all the rules for Akuma I'll ever need. Except perhaps for a description of "Black Lead" and exactly what's so special about it.


-S

 

[Joseph]

I personally wouldn't want a Infernals player cration rules.  As a storyteller only resource it would be excellent, but to me playing infernals would be like running around as evil characters in d20 not all that great of a stroy.

Infernals could be construed as protagonists and heroes, psychoph.  They're only "evil" if the Yozis are "evil."  Telling a story from the viewpoint that the Yozis were unjustly cast down and imprisoned might be very interesting, and in such a story, the Infernal Exalted are heroes trying to free the rightful rulers of Creation.

 I have heard of games liek this working ok but the majority have been fuck your neighbor and much as posisbel and just try to be as nasty as you can.

Yes, any game focused on "Infernals being bitches for its own sake," would probably fail.  Infernals don't HAVE to be played or portrayed that way though.  Much like the loyalist Abyssals, the Infernals CAN be made into heroes, from a certain point of view.


I think it's very interesting to conceptualize a game where the Infernal PCs have the goal of freeing their masters, and possibly even getting revenge for them while doing so, so long as the players were reasonably mature, rather than being jerks constantly for no reason.


Aside: I voted yes for Infernals as PCs, for reasons I think are made clear in this post.

 

[Joseph]

I do think, however, a successful Infernals game will require a lot more Storyteller attention and planning than, say, a successful Solar game would.  It requires very particular themes, very particular goals, and a  very particular approach to play.  It's definitely not for everyone, but then, neither are the Sidereals, Lunars, etc.

 

[Jakk Bey]

When you look at the Creation, you can easily justify the Primordials' degree of anger, and their desire for revenge.


You make a whole Creation, you breathe life into it, set it into place, and then hand the whole thing over to a line of middle managers--the Gods--and procede to sit back and enjoy the spectacle that you have made.


Then, the middle managers decide to use your latest toys, ones that were supposed to keep things running smoothly--to stab you in the back. Even kill a few of your homies, and then lock your butts in prison of one of your own, having to breathe, eat, shit, piss and move within each other.


The Yozi have every reason to want to get back to the Creation. And they have every reason to want revenge. Using the tools that the Gods used against you to do so, is just dramatic irony, and part of a good shafting that the Gods kind of deserve for usurping the Games of Divinity for themselves.  Titans thrown down by gods. Gods thrown down by heroes. The circle of life continues. Revenge begets revenge.


I think that Infernals would be interesting character choices--because tales of revenge, and justifying horrible acts in its name makes for good drama.  You have the Abyssals already--and it's hard to get much more Anti-Creation than them, and they've proven good fodder for tales.  Infernals might not have the same kind of redemnation stories, but then again, the Infernals aren't about destroying the Creation, but subverting it, handing it over not to the Oblivion, but its original masters. Tales of seductive power, tales of corruption, tales of long waiting revenge.


So bring me on a full on hard cover--because the Akuma AREN'T the fifty Shards that were bargined for.  Give the folks all the nasty they want--WW does it fairly well, and delving into the darker aspects of myth is what the company has been based on.

 

[Relic]

I was happy with the main book and the Dragon-Blooded book.


Abyssals are nice, Sidereals quite interesting, Lunars an OK read if not a lot more. The Fae --- strange but inspiring. I remember saying to a friend: "this would be a good place to stop - I think we have quite enough of the PC books now".


Enter Autochtonians. I don't have it, I doubt I'll buy it. I voted no for an Infernal book not because having it would annoy me (because I just wouldn't buy it) but because I'd rather see the effort put into something else.

 

[8 Drunken Gods]

 I find WW very interesting in that they like to give you enough to create your own infernals, ie Demon: The Fallen, but doesn't provide too much as far as stats are concerned.  

Well since they did make rules for demons (D:TF) of course they've provide enough as far as stats are concerned.  Since none of you decided to point out my error thanks, I had a point somewhere that I wanted to prove.


I definately agree with Joseph, both in that looking at Exalted from the Yozi's and Akuma's perspective is ground for good storytelling, and also that it requires more than your Solar game as far as putting it together.  It also requires a group of mature minds.  We all determine maturity in our own fashions however.


 Please continue to share your opinions about whether the Infernal Exalted should be playable.  Also, be sure to stop by my next thread.  I'll be welcoming unnoficial ideas for making infernal NPCs and PCs as well as their demonic brethren and black magic.  Check it out:


http://patternspider.net/exalted/f ... .php?t=301

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

However, Demon: The Fallen demons and the demons of Exalted are completely different balls of wax. Creation is not the playtoy of a single all-powerful god who had a hissy fit ala Demon: The Fallen, but instead the creation of an whole group of beings, the Primordials...  and the Exalted mythos doesn't support the same sort of being...exactly. Demons are not fallen angels, as there are no angles to fall in the first place, but instead the very souls of the Primordials.

 

[8 Drunken Gods]

However' date=' Demon: The Fallen demons and the demons of Exalted are completely different balls of wax. [/quote']
 Don't get me wrong.  My point was that White Wolf's probably gonna be sketchy about releasing anything about demons, not that the supreme WOD Being used this type of "wax" to make said demons, and the primordials used their own "wax".  Hence the fact that I mentioned the reluctance White Wolf displayed in releasing anything on Demons besides the stand alone game, just before they ended the first generation of WOD.


 I'm sure that the compendium is glad that you and I know what the difference between demons and demons are though.


 Did you want to contribute your opinion as to whether they should be PCs?  Did you vote?  or....Did you even bother reading any of the other posts?


Thanks for your input.

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

I did vote, and did read all the posts. As for WW being uncomfortable with demons...obviously you haven't played too much of the old WoD if you think such... they published any number of texts, any number of types of infernalism and so forth, for multiple game types... hell, the most recent Dark Ages Vapire book has a whole section, albite a small one on demons as antagonists... add in such things as various Dark Thaumaturgy and so forth, paths such as Evil Revelations...and the Baali, and well, WW has little to no fear of playing around with demons of any sort. As for whether they should have a splat book... personally I don't see the necessity, however I'm not really opposed... I doubt I'd buy it, but then I'm actually thinking about wasting money on Sidreals to complete my hardback other than Fair Folk collection, so... maybe. On the whole I'd rather use the Akuma rules and have a PC fall into darkness if I did a tale involving something similar instead of starting out there.

 

[8 Drunken Gods]

I did vote' date=' and did read all the posts. As for WW being uncomfortable with demons...obviously you haven't played too much of the old WoD if you think such... they published any number of texts, any number of types of infernalism and so forth, for multiple game types... hell, the most recent Dark Ages Vapire book has a whole section, albite a small one on demons as antagonists... add in such things as various Dark Thaumaturgy and so forth, paths such as Evil Revelations...and the Baali, and well, WW has little to no fear of playing around with demons of any sort.[/quote']
 Figures that I'd get a devil's advocate with an Infernals topic.


 I hope WW puts forth the same effort; as they do with vampire; toward making a healthy setting for Infernals.  And if they don't then I hope I get some good ideas from the compendiums responses.

 

[Andrew02]

There was mention of a book about the return of the Empress, so they might expand on Infernals there, if they ever release it. As far as I understand Infernals . . . I think they were made to be unplayable. Complete and utter mental domination by the alien mind of a Yozi.

 

[Persell]

They could be playable, I believe it has been mentioned in a few places that the Yozi's are generally idiots (I'm paraphrasing a bit :roll who pay little attention to the goings-on of their underlings, with the obsessive Ebon Dragon the exception. While they would probably pay more attention to the doings of an Exalted slave than to the whereabouts of their first circle souls if WW wanted to make Infernals playable they could use this angle

 

[Joseph]

I believe it has been mentioned in a few places that the Yozi's are generally idiots (I'm paraphrasing a bit :roll who pay little attention to the goings-on of their underlings, with the obsessive Ebon Dragon the exception.

They're no more idiots for not paying attention to their underlings than you are for not paying attention to the beneficial strains of bacteria in your digestive tract.  In both cases, beings you or the Yozis consider "less" than you are doing a function important to your overall goals, but in both cases you don't really consider them worth thinking about either.


Humans and Second Circle Demons are, after all, on scale to Yozis as bacteria and cells are to us.  Third Circle Demons are more like organs are to us, which justifies giving them MORE attention than the cells, but still not a whole lot unless they seem to be acting up.

 

[Persell]

I suppose when looked on from that perspective it does make sense, I suppose apathy would also have began to set in after what is (even to a Primordial I suspect) a significant length of time spent imprisoned. But then, do Yozi's deal with/see the concept of time the same way that we do. Insight into the mindset and inhuman perceptions of the Yozi's would probably be the best part of an Infernals supplement

 

[Andrew02]

I think it's a given that Yozis perceive things differently than humans simply by virtue of the fact they are inhuman beings that predate Creation and the gods. I imagine there is/was a Yozi that IS time (or had a relation to time akin to that Gaia has to Creation and Autochton has to making things), or had control over it and could radically alter time in any fashion it chose (as well as having a perception of the concept of time far more nuanced and perfect than any human could ever possess).


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Th ... iAttitudes


That's a pretty good read. You probably won't like it, though.

 

[Joseph]

I imagine there is/was a Yozi that IS time (or had a relation to time akin to that Gaia has to Creation and Autochton has to making things), or had control over it and could radically alter time in any fashion it chose (as well as having a perception of the concept of time far more nuanced and perfect than any human could ever possess).

I assert that Yozis is Isidoros.

 

[Andrew02]

I assert that Yozis is Isidoros.

I submit I am owned.

 

[ashenphoenix]

There have been a few more suppliements for old WoD that were useful for making Infernalists - the most relevent setting-wise being The 1000 Hells suppliment for KoE. People tend to miss a lot of the other Year of the Damned stuff.


Mages - the Book of Madness Revised had a whole heap of stuff that plugged in with 1K Hells, I haven't seen the original version though.


Hunter - two relevent suppliments - Fall From Grace - a book about level 5 Edges, and how to get them, from Demons, Angels and independently, and Hunter: The Infernal - a Hunter suppliment about D:tF Demons, for a quick-and-simple rundown of D:tF.


Werewolf - here's the best stuff. Freak Legion was the original suppliment for possession, but the revision Possessed showed exactly what could be done with this stuff. Had the Autonomy rating down and everything. If you're going to create Infernals - at least take a look at this.


Vampire  - the old Storyteller's guide to the Sabbat had some stuff on infernalists, as did Clanbook: Baali. Mostly setting-stuff.


I was thinking about it yesterday though - exactly how independent are lower ranking (Exalted) demon-souls of the higher ones? The impression is that they are given some wiggle-room, in a similar fashion to the Infernals, but are mostly stamped on.


Do they have a little bird looking over their shoulder? Kind of like the way the Shadow looked over the shoulder in Wraith?


I was think about how Angst worked in Wraith. It was almost exactly like the Limit Break rules.


Now, if Limits are similar to Angst, and Pathos is Essence, and Corpus Health Levels, then there can be some funky stuff we can do with Harrowings.


Basically, make Harrowings occur when Limit is broken, when Health levels are down to 0 or when the character is out of Willpower.


Now the Cult can add to Willpower refresh at the upper levels, can't it?


What happens if we think of Cult in a similar fashion to Thralls in D:tF?


So if a Harrowing occurs, the host body for the soul is destroyed (assumed). The Infernal, if they succeed in the Harrowing (being told off by their demonic master), they transfer to one of their cultists.


But they're still out of control. They could still deviate.


So we give them their own little voice inside their head. Their Demon-self.


It acts exactly like the demon would like them to - can exercise charms (Thorns) on the Infernal, and can be played by another character in the same way the Shadow was played in Wraith.


I'll shove some preliminary rules up here in the next few days, but I think I've nailled how to keep those pesky Infernals under the thumb, and still make them playable.


Give them their own Shadow Demon.

 

[Persell]

I would not  want to see a Infernals corebook... especialy not the kind of BS a lot of people seem to want of their being a difference between "Invested" and "shard" infernals.


beyond the circumstances of their creation...


Or the fact a lot of people may nto realie the inclusion of its info was 100% optional (some people have spoken of the locust crusade as other then 100% optional)


however I WOULD like more info on Demons stats.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Wait for the Malfeas book.

 

[Persell]

ashenphoenix


Infernals in Exalted aren't possessed - they still very much who they've always been.  They've just been tainted and made more powerful by the Yozis.  Thus, they are not possessed.


Let's say that Tod the cobbler makes shoes all of his life, which is nearly 70 years old.  He has managed to get Craft: Wood 5 because that's what he's dedicated his life to.  He suddenly Exalts as a Dragon-Blood when his life is in great danger, which it never was before.  He's so angry that he could be one of the Princes of the Earth but instead wasted it being a lowly shoe maker.  He manages to find a Demon-Blooded who can get him in contact with Ligier.  Tod agrees to enter thralldom with Ligier if the Yozi can make him a great warrior, something he's always dreamed of being.  Ligier then corrupts Tod's very being, erasing all of his knowledge on how to make things from wood and instilling in him the sudden knowledge to become a blademaster by converting all of his Craft: Wood dots to Melee dots, giving him a Melee of 5.  Tod can now be a great warrior and does so for the Yozis, not just Ligier but all of them.


This is how becoming an Infernal works.  They aren't possessed by the Yozis but rather transformed and tainted by them.

 

[ashenphoenix]

Or the fact a lot of people may nto realie the inclusion of its info was 100% optional (some people have spoken of the locust crusade as other then 100% optional)

True, but it wasn't just the Locust Crusade - it was also in Blood & Salt, and the Player's guide. Then again, from this perspective, All the rules that made ghosts actually playable (Book of Bone and Ebony), the Alchemicals, the Dragon Kings and anything else not mentioned in the Big White Book is 100% optional (and the aforementioned even goes on to say that all the rules are ST's disgression).

however I WOULD like more info on Demons stats.

Best source is Games of Divinity - I know that was re-released, but I'm not sure if it is still in print.


1st Ed ST's guide is also kinda useful. Not too sure about the 2nd Ed.