Implications of Essence Respiration

[Jimborg]

I had a thought earlier tonight: what if Essence respiration is inherently tied to the presence of the Primordials? We have Gaia (Creation), Malfeas (Malfeas), Autochonia (Autochon), and the Underworld (Neverborn/The Void/Stolen from Gaia?).


If someone who transported to a place without Primoridal presence, would they no longer be able to respire?

 

[skafte]

You still get Essence in the Wyld. But there can be conditions that makes it impossible for you to respire Essence from the reality you are in, like living being in the Underworld, if the Essence is too alien for you.

 

[Jimborg]

You still get Essence in the Wyld. But there can be conditions that makes it impossible for you to respire Essence from the reality you are in, like living being in the Underworld, if the Essence is too alien for you.

I always regarded the Underworld as an exception in that regard. I mean we have "living" essence: The Wyld, Authochonia, Malfeas, and Creation. Then we have the Underworld with it's "dead" Essence, all by it's lonesome. Maybe its because the Neverborn are dead and thus create "dead" Essence (Though the Void can probably continue that function independently of the Neverborn)


In regards to the Wyld, the Unshaped bear superficial resemblances to the Primordials (Being a Genus Loci, having sub-entities budding of the main entity, in possession of a great deal of power, at least where Wyld Shaping is concerned). In Infernals and Graceful Wicked Masques, it was suggested that the Fair Folk and Primordials were very closely related.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Well, it makes sense that the Primordials, being creatures that lived in pure wyld before they made creation, would be of the same species, or at least phylum, as the other things living in pure wyld.


Hmm, if essence respiration is dependent on a primordial, and it can't be done without, that would have some odd implications. Perhaps the Wyld is pure essence and anything can respire it, but creation used up a great deal of that essence to become. . . creation. That's why fair folk have trouble there, creation is like trying to live in a vacuum for them and the have to take drastic measures to survive it.

 

[Michael Talpas]

You still get Essence in the Wyld. But there can be conditions that makes it impossible for you to respire Essence from the reality you are in, like living being in the Underworld, if the Essence is too alien for you.

Actually, this is only partly correct. It has been intimated that Creation-born cannot travel through the raw Wyld, that if you are in Pure Chaos, you are actually inside one of the Unshaped. You can travel from Unshaped to Unshaped (assuming you aren't mutated right out of existence), but you can't travel through the Wyld itself. This is probably because a place that has no place can't have things inside it. Makes sense to me, but your mileage may vary.


In the near Wyld (Border, middle, deep) you are still close enough to Creation to respire Essence. In Pure Chaos you are inside an Unshaped, which may be close enough to a Primordial to give this theory credence.


Frankly, if you were in a place that had no Primordial essence at all, you would be nowhere. I.e., Elsewhere, or Oblivion. Can you respire Essence in Elsewhere? I'm fairly certain you can't respire essence in Oblivion.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Actually' date=' this is only partly correct. It has been intimated that Creation-born cannot travel through the raw Wyld, that if you are in Pure Chaos, you are actually inside one of the Unshaped. You can travel from Unshaped to Unshaped (assuming you aren't mutated right out of existence), but you can't travel through the Wyld itself. This is probably because a place that has no place can't have things inside it.[/quote']This is one of those instances of writers saying something that sounds like it might be really awesome or metaphysically heady, but is actually kind of dumb and lessens story hooks for no good reason. Homogenizing Chaos into "a bunch of Unshaped, forever" devours many of the story possibilities of venturing into the unknown, to no good end. On top of that, it contradicts any number of things that are pretty important foundational aspects of the Exalted universe, such as the way the shinma diagram works, the influence of Creation's existence, etc. It's also self-contradictory if you really think about it, because a place that is no place and has no things in it cannot contain Unshaped, which are things with a place that they are in.

In the near Wyld (Border, middle, deep) you are still close enough to Creation to respire Essence. In Pure Chaos you are inside an Unshaped, which may be close enough to a Primordial to give this theory credence.

Apart from my general distaste of tying Primordials and Unshaped closely together, and making them so important that it's generally too difficult to have a universe if you want to kill them all, this also undermines the cosmic horror of the Underworld if it's "just some other place, but without proper Primordials." Bleah.

 

[Michael Talpas]

Plague of Hats said: "This is one of those instances of writers saying something that sounds like it might be really awesome or metaphysically heady, but is actually kind of dumb and lessens story hooks for no good reason."


Sure, but they didn't actually say it. They intimated it, on a forum. It is not in any book, nor is it on the Ink Monkey's Posts, so it cannot be considered Canon. I posited it as a possible theory for why the idea of Essence Respiration only works with an active Primordial. It is just a houserule idea, not any statement of how the Universe actually works, a Story Hook in itself. Of course, many Story Hooks kill other Story Hooks, but that's the nature of stories.


To note: I am not unhappy about your response, and the above should not be taken as irritated or angry or any other negative reaction. Just a continuation of the discussion. Just wanted to make sure.


Plague of Hats said: "On top of that, it contradicts any number of things that are pretty important foundational aspects of the Exalted universe, such as the way the shinma diagram works, the influence of Creation's existence, etc. It's also self-contradictory if you really think about it, because a place that is no place and has no things in it cannot contain Unshaped, which are things with a place that they are in."


I'm not entirely sure one can say that, though. Afterall, a place that is no place and has no things in it cannot contain you, either. Thus, if there is anything there, there can be everything there. That is kind of the point of the Wyld.


Plague of Hats said: "Apart from my general distaste of tying Primordials and Unshaped closely together, and making them so important that it's generally too difficult to have a universe if you want to kill them all, this also undermines the cosmic horror of the Underworld if it's "just some other place, but without proper Primordials." Bleah."


Eh. I didn't really address the Underworld. I consider the Underworld to be Creation, broken. I think the Neverborn created it by their deaths, and the Ghosts populate it with their memories, but beyond that, I haven't put too much thought into it, metaphysically.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Sure' date=' but they didn't actually say it. They intimated it, on a forum. It is not in any book,[/quote']It's stated outright in Graceful Wicked Masques. Also Compass: Wyld, I think.

I'm not entirely sure one can say that, though. Afterall, a place that is no place and has no things in it cannot contain you, either. Thus, if there is anything there, there can be everything there. That is kind of the point of the Wyld.

Then what did you mean when you said:

but you can't travel through the Wyld itself. This is probably because a place that has no place can't have things inside it.

You're definitionally removing the Unshaped from the Wyld, because they are things that exist in a place.

 

[Michael Talpas]

It's stated outright in Graceful Wicked Masques. Also Compass: Wyld' date=' I think.[/quote']Ah, then I rescind my statement there. I agree with you, it should not be that way, though I do have a hard time myself thinking of the Wyld separate any stabilizing factor. I think any human mind would have a bit of trouble imaging a place where everything possible is happening at the same time. Chaos is a just a word.

Then what did you mean when you said:

but you can't travel through the Wyld itself. This is probably because a place that has no place can't have things inside it.

You're definitionally removing the Unshaped from the Wyld, because they are things that exist in a place.

As I said, I have a hard time imaging the Wyld as a place. It is too much chaos for my tiny human brain to encapsulate.
It should be as you say, with the idea of the Unshaped throughout the Wyld being just another possibility and not The Truth. The thing about the Wyld is, all theories can be correct at the same time, because the Wyld is chaos. It is everything you can think of, at the same time. Or it can be just one thing you think of. It is kind of crazy that way.

 

[AceOfFools]

Graceful Wicked Masques states that Shaped existence, particularly causality and locality is somehow contagous, and that Raksha that come into contact with it find themselves thinking more in terms of space and time.


One part of this is that it gives a large part of the motivation of the Balorian Crusade was that Raksha hated that and wanted to get rid of Creation so they wouldn't have to worry about organizing their Wyld Shaping in terms of times and location.


Another (explicit) facet of this is that the mere presence of Shaped creature is enough to force waypoints to have a distinct (if not consistent) flow of time from moment to moment and from area to area.


I.e. the presence of a Creation-born stabilizes the Deep Wyld enough for them to observe it as an area in which time passes. This can be gotten around by forging Graces from a Creation-born's virtues, which allows them to observe the Wyld in all its Unshaped glory, and participate in Shaping Combat. To the best of my knowledge, canonically, this must be done by one of the Fair Folk.


I really liked this explanation, as it neatly explains how a Shaped creature can exist and interact with an Unshaped environment while providing a rational for the formation of the Church of Balor (other factors are in play, particularly the Church is interesting). In addition it sort of allows us to have our Wyld cake and eat it to. The Wyld is a place (or at least place like) as far as individual adventures are concerned, unless the players & ST want it to be something completely different.


Regarding Waypoints and Journeys, the "locations" in the Wyld as observed by the unshapped (defined by narrative distance, all Unshaped in a Waypoint are within each other's Shaping "reach"), Graceful Wicked Masques has, if I'm not mistaken, a throw away line about sometimes running away from one shaping combat to find a waypoint occupied. Implying, to me, that it is possible for Waypoints to be unoccupied, thus not containing an Unshaped and therefore not themselves be an Unshaped.


I haven't read... pretty much anything outside of core on the Underworld & abyssals, so I'm not sure weather or not they respire Essence in the Wyld.

 

[Kyeudo]

There are four levels of canonical Wyld Territory. Three of them are actually corrupted levels of Creation. The Bordermarches, the Middlemarches, and the Deep Wyld all were once part of Creation and have been devolved into various states of randomness. The waypoints here exist without the intervention of an Unshaped Raksha and so can be completely unoccupied. Pure Chaos, however, exists beyond the furthest reaches of Creation's influence. The only waypoints in Pure Chaos are those that make up one of the Unshaped.


Most of this should be taken with a grain of salt, however, as the books can't seem to decide if the Bordermarches existed back in the First Age or not.