I'm probaly nitpicking but... on savage seas.

Kyrn said:
Don't know, didn't purchase it, as I'd already paid twenty bucks for a sorcery book.  If it does state that it is, surprise surprise, in direct contradiction of canon, as the DBs of Lookshy can produce artifact N/A rating warstriders, airships, essence cannon, and most likely First Age style sailing vessels, as is implied by the secretive enclosed drydocks at one of the redoubts.  That limitation never made sense to me, as one doesn't have to be an exalt to craft artifacts.  Is channelling essence a set in stone requirement?  I believe so, but I'm not sure.
Click to expand...
 They most certainly can not make all the stuff they listed; the reason Lookshy has all of that is because when the Seventh retreated to Deleheshen, where there was a ginormous cache of First Age military equipment. It's been eked out since then to now, thanks to the near-indestructive qualities of the equipment and rigorous maintenance.


 Re-read the Outcaste section on Lookshy--especially the 'Controlled Devolution of Capacity' box on p. 26.
 
And reread the part that explicitly states that they just built the Skywolf, a rating N/A artifact.  They can't keep up with breakage and so their capabilities are slowly degrading, but they can still produce massive shit like the Skywolf.  Thus I imagine that the Empress' personal goon squad of sorcerors could beat out some interesting materials as well.
 
Not too sure there. The outcaste book says that they build the skywolf based on plans which were already lying around so this might be the explanation for lookshy building it. And it no where states how much gods (in case of lookshy) or siderials (in case of the realm) support the dragon blooded. The heptagramm for example is heavily staffed with siderials. Lets say artificer sesus mikrafir does not know how to go on in the creation of this badass warstrider, he heads over to the heptagramm to discuss it with his artificing teacher. Said teacher is a bronze faction sid who might happily give his student the needed supervision.


And lookshy controls a first age factory cathedral and a first age drydock. perhaps the support equipment in there helps them bypass their limitations with excellent plans. I mean after all the dragon blooded were responsible for doing the shit the solars did not want to do anymore so it makes sense that the menial tasks are explained there...
 
Lookshy has produced exactly one Skywolf, and their production of other armament slowed to a crawl when they did so. And that was around two hundred years ago.


 Sure, DBs are occasionally capable of making better-than-3-dot items (see Icemind in AB: Air), but they either happen by accident, or through massive undertakings--not something like a daiklave that an Exalt just cranks out.
 
Precisely, I'm not saying that creation of a four or five dot artifact is commonplace for DBs, but the fact that they can make an artifact rated N/A means that these things are indeed possible.  Thus the reason for my ignoring the three dot limit.
 
In my opinion, not having such a rule in play (and letting the players think that DBs are capable of cranking out such items as readily as a daiklave) is worse than having such a rule, and making occasional exceptions as appropriate to the story.


 Other than that, I think we agree on the DB artifact construction capabilities.


 I normally hate arguing pro-3-dot limitations, 'cause then I have to defend stupid crap like why DBs can make common warstriders, and not dragon armor.
 
Wasn't there some point in the Exalted produciton schedule where they stated that every artifact is unique and treasured, and should never be taken for granted, and then right next to that they gave a little chart for purchasing artifacts on the cheap with resources?  In this vein, at what point did artifacts start getting all wonky ass common?  


I remember being all excited at the prospect of my Solar spending a campaign tracking down the Dawning Sun Indomitable so that he could become a powerful naval force.  In reading the description of the legend it sounded as though this were the only such vessel left, as beftiing a world fallen from the lofty achievements of the First Age.  Then I found out the Realm has hundreds of them.  Scrapped that campaign idea.  Basically I'm griping about the dilution of flavor from the original line of the Age of Sorrows into what I see as the Age of Not Really Quite so Bad, I Say, Another of those Flying Powered Armor Troopers Just took a Dump on my First Age Limo...
 
So? If you don't like the idea of DSI not being a unique artifact, make it one--power it up to make it comparable to Brass Leviathan (hell, have the Solar track down Brass Leviathan instead...), or reduce the Realm's other naval capabilities.


 Don't let the setting make you abandon a cool campaign idea.
 
I'm now mostly griping about the way the setting has changed over the years.  Which I have partaken of, I must admit.  And as for the DSI, I moved on when I found out about airships.  Skywolfs make me go all mushy inside.  I tested one out once, with a moderate crew of DBs and godbloods inside, and one Skywolf can pretty much wipe out a city's defenses in a matter of minutes.  Especially if the ever fun gunzosha are used.  


Btw, didn't the Autos have something similar to gunzosha?
 
You pick and choose what you like from the books to apply to your own games.  If you don't like that the Realm has hundreds of vessels like the Dawning Sun Indomitable, don't storytell that the Realm has them.  I think the el-cheapo-artifact chart was included for those storytellers who want there to be lots of artifacts in their games, or if their characters wanted to make one.  Of course, the resource costs are comparitively high, if you consider what each level of resources could buy you, but if many of your players can afford it anyway, you might want to put a limit on the amount of resources available in your game - just like you can put a limit on the commonality/rarity of artifacts in your game, or a limit on anything else you like.
 
Right.  I just think that it sends conflicting signals to readers.  And it's in the DB book in the chapter on backgrounds.  The two passages in question are in the same sidebar.  Le sigh.
 
Mmm...autobot gunzosha...


That's just sick when coupled with that autosuccess adder thaumaturgical item they have.  What is that, plus two dice and plus two successes for every attack and parry?  For mortals?  Beefed up, armor-plated mortals wielding essence weaponry?  Add in those nifty rickshaws and you've got a party.
 
Regarding the rickshaws, and actually all Autochthonian vehicles, did the writer(s) of the Locust War chapter not have access to the Miracles of the Machine God chapter?  There's a world of difference between the vehicles in those two chapters, and I don't think the Autos would invade and develop a new line of crappier vehicles to use in the invasion.  Especially ones so useless as the vitreous freighter.  Which are neither vitreous nor freighters.  Come to think of it, I want to know who wrote that chapter.
 
Huh, that is surprising, now that I think about it. I can understand the authors of the three different scenarios not having access to every last detail of the base material (it was probably been written concurrently), but that no editor caught that blague? Tsk tsk, those WW content editors.
 
White-Wolf's one great virtue I guess. Not catching anything from time to time. But how can we bitch? We buy the books and for the most part, love 'em.
 
You've got a point, Cthulhu_Wakes.  We do buy the books and we do love the game.  Who knows...  Maybe Second Edition will bring everyone on board as a cohesive unit.  From the sounds of things at White Wolf, they've not really had anyone reading through the material and making sure that it all fits together with all of the other suppliments.  Still, they include their disclaimer "Use whatever fits best in your stories", which seems to work out well.
 
Rereading the Autos book, I'm surprised that it's one of my favorites.  I mean, I really like the Alchemicals, they're one of the most mechanically sound Exalts, but the rest of the book, well, kind of sucks.  The first chapter is interesting, but too short, the miracles of the machine god chapter is also good, but the only non-crunch information we receive about the Alchemicals is in the Caste blurb pages.  Reading the book gives me very information on how Alchemicals exist in society, whether they socialize with mortals often, or hang in their own little cliques.  Is there much inter-caste association?  What about between cities, nations, why isn't any of this addressed?  Oh, right, so they can stick in no less than three campaign scenarios.  All of which result in destroying Creation.  (not really, but damned close)  I realize epicness is the heart of Exalted, but how many groups have actually gone through any of these campaigns?  I had an intial point...oh yeah, the books.  Grrr...


With the raised prices of Second Edition I'm going to expect some radical changes in the editing, layout, and general quality of the books.


Also, is it just me or is the Autos book only sparsely illustrated?
 
Not really sparsely illustrated, but what they do have is...wonderful in my opinion. As for Second Edition...I wouldn't expect anything radical about the making and presentation of the books. Don't hold your breath on that one. Quality I suspect and hope will be better. I'm really gunning for that.
 
White Wolf has always been crap at editing, in all it's various forms. It's not just Exalted that has problems. All their other products have the same problem. I had a friend do some work for WW and she bitched that they didn't know what the hell was going on, that the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.


Sometimes I think they care more about getting a product out and then errataing the shit out of something rather than take their time and do it right. I can understand they want to make money, but if that's the case, don't announce something's release until it's nearly ready. That or their editing process is to run it through a spell checker and then off it goes. If it happened once or twice, that's fine. Everyone makes mistakes. But this has been a chronic problem for them for years.....
 
Once again, it doesn't matter in the eyes of most people. We buy it and move on, happy in our lives. We only nit pick and bitch about it later on when we have time to look through the books propely ^^; A clever ploy by White-Wolf, "They'll never know there is bad editing until after they buy it! Genius!"
 
It matters to me, but then, I'm an English major. But yes, they have us over a barrel on this one. I love the game, but it irritates me to no end when shit like this happens. They're a professional game publisher. How fucking hard can it be to hire decent editors? It's like they're saying 'We don't give a shit. We know they'll fork over the money. Fuck 'em.' It's just unprofessional, in my opinion. But, as you say, I buy the shit, so they know what they're doing.


But it still irritates the hell out of me.
 
Hate to defend WW on this, but I'm a sucker for playing devil's advocate...


 For any published work, one should have line editors for grammar and syntax, and content editors for, well, not just content, but reconciling of all content.


 From what I can see, the line editors do a good job; it's the content editors that have issues. The problem is, where do you get better content editors, who are more familiar with the background material in depth? Remember, said content editor is likely editing several works at once, of only one or two would be Exalted. Considering the reams of background material for each system, the ever-approaching deadlines, and other such jolly matters, it's not surprising that the editors make notable mistakes every so often, and a fair number of minor ones.


 Could WW improve on this? Sure they can, but is it likely to decrease their bottom line? Probably. Whereas an improvement in editing isn't overly likely to attract enough extra people to justify the extra expense...


 They're playing percentages.
 
The line editors don't have the greatest track record (I've found several "See page XX" referrences that have made it to publication).


Notwithstanding, I seriously think WW should have a group of regular players who read over all pre-published material for consistency. Hundreds of such people obviously exist (we are among that group ourselves), and I'm sure many of us would gladly do it for free.


All WW would have to do is assemble a volunteer QA team, have them sign non-disclosure agreements, and then pre-realease new material to them for review and revision.


I don't see what's so difficult or expensive about that.


-S
 
I agree with Still on this one. The line editors do have problems. As for the content editors.....it's their fucking job. If they can't do the job, get someone who will. As content editors, it's their job to be familiar with the game worlds they're editing. It's what they're paid to do. And if they're editing more than one game....so what? See my points above. If they can't get it right, they're just fucking lazy.


And if all that failed, again, Still's idea is a good one. If the people who are getting paid to do this shit can't get it done, there are numerous people who will - and would most likely do it for free.


I just don't think it's so easy to give them a pass on this.
 
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